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Invunerable saves for Phoenix lords perhaps?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

But back in the day Guardians could choose lasguns instead for ranged punch.

Buh? At no point when Guardians had the option for lasguns were lasguns anything but objectively inferior to Shuriken Catapults.

Catapults had the same range, better to hit modifiers, better strength, better save modifier, and more shots.

Guardians squads came standard with lasguns in 2nd, you had to pay points to upgrade them to shuriken catapults.

He knows that Shandara. He's saying that Guardians didn't choose Lasguns for greater ranged punch. The Lasgun was inferior. The Catapult outclassed the Storm Bolter in 2nd Ed.

Fortunately, the codicies thus far mostly suggest that we won't return to a 2nd ed level of brokenness for shuricats or other units and gear.

 gorgon wrote:
Fortunately, the codicies thus far mostly suggest that we won't return to a 2nd ed level of brokenness for shuricats or other units and gear.

They weren't broken. Shurikats put Dire Avengers on an almost equal footing in a gunfight with Marines. Marines were still better overall.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Am I the only one that absolutely does not want to see templates on Warp Spiders? That would inevitably mean they get a drop in strength, and I think it would hinder their role as a harassing unit. They'd lose effectiveness vs. vehicles, which is what they excel at now with deep striking, and lose a bit of range, making them more reliant on their assault jump to keep out of trouble, and making it less likely that they all even get to shoot. The one way I'd be happy about them getting templates is if they got a rule similar to the Night Spinner.

I'm not saying your wrong about any of this, but (speaking fluffwise) aren't the webs the Spiders fire supposed to be really good at killing infantry? Therefore, if they are considered perfect vehicle hunters, somethings gone wrong. Fire Dragons are supposed to hunt vehicles aren't they?

Hm you've got me there, just being stubborn and resistant to change then . I still think it would be awesome for them to get a Night Spinner rule to really bog down enemy infantry.

Powerguy wrote:

uberjoras wrote:
Being older when it comes to being a soldier though usually does mean you're better - an eldar soldier has probably been in combat for more hours than many humans and some space marines have even been alive! With that comes great competence at whatever task you've dedicated yourself to - be it flying around throwing bombs everywhere or sneaking up and going ape on stuff.

Honestly, I think most eldar ought to be ws5/bs5. In addition to a mild range buff on shuriken weaponry, and a change to codex psychic powers (maybe Guide becomes ignore cover?) this could make for a very elite army in which many units could actually go up in cost.

Depends on which Eldar you mean tbh. Guardians are clearly going to be worse stat wise than a Marine because they have no real training but it wouldn't be hard to justify the Eldar Assault Aspects getting WS5 (but BS3 since that's how Aspects/Paths work, focus on a single discipline). Eldar are roughly the equivilant of High Elves in Fantasy, highly elite, specialised, well equipped with powerful magic (or psychic ability). None of the Eldar Aspects really reflect this though and it would be a major shift to see an army of largely WS5 assualt units and BS5 shooty units.

If they did that, then by fluff it would make much more sense to be 5/4 or 4/5, rather than 5/3 or 3/5. In Path of the Warrior the Scorpions spend a lot of time training with their pistols, you can see that a close-combat aspect still puts in the time and the work to become exceptional shots. By the same logic I don't see why ranged aspects wouldn't also be trained in hand-to-hand combat, just in case.

Exactly, the new codex wave has set 14pts as the cost for a 4's across the stats, 3+ save, ATSKNF trooper with a boltgun. Hell even the pricing on Fire Warriors makes the Eldar troops look bad.

No-one is asking for rending stormbolter 6pt guardians as one person suggested, but at the moment their main rifle is pistol ranged and they are as tough as a guardsman. Ork Boyz weapons are accurate out to a longer range than guardians....

They either need to go down in price (pushing the dying Eldar race into a horde army for Craftworld themes like Ulthwe) or get better for their points. Making all Shuriken Catapults 18", assault 2, shred, would mean giving them firepower while keeping them delicate for game balance. GW has made their bed with them sending in cannon fodder units like guardians which are completely unfluffy.

If they at least gave guardians the ability to keep a bit of distance their fragility would be less galling, but when they have to close to pistol range to fire? They need the numbers so you are forced to deploy them in battle but you put them behind the real soldiers in a support role, not with a gun and only one magazine because hey, you'll never live long enough to fire it more than once...

And seriously, the person calling the Eldar codex powerful? It's ancient, overcosted and badly adjusted to the current ruleset. In an environment where both players are looking to win it's trumped by pretty much every book out there.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

No-one is asking for rending stormbolter 6pt guardians

Of course, that'd be worth exactly 7 points, as Grey Knights show us.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Fortunately, the codicies thus far mostly suggest that we won't return to a 2nd ed level of brokenness for shuricats or other units and gear.

They weren't broken. Shurikats put Dire Avengers on an almost equal footing in a gunfight with Marines. Marines were still better overall.

Who took Dire Avengers when Guardians with shuricats mowed down SMs like wheat while being fielded in uber-VP efficient sub-100 pt units? The second edition Eldar codex was almost certainly the most broken codex in any edition, and shuricat Guardians were among the worst offenders in that codex.

I'd have to agree with gorgon here. Being a 2nd Ed player myself and having the relevant Codices to hand, a Guardian with a Shuricat is 14pts, compared to a SM from the Ultramarines codex at 30pts each with a slightly inferior weapon (same stats without the sustained fire).

So for the cost of a Vanilla Tac Squad you could have nearly three times the amount of Guardians....

 gorgon wrote:
Who took Dire Avengers when Guardians with shuricats mowed down SMs like wheat while being fielded in uber-VP efficient sub-100 pt units? The second edition Eldar codex was almost certainly the most broken codex in any edition, and shuricat Guardians were among the worst offenders in that codex.

Let's not over state the claim. I was an Eldar player as far back as 2nd edition and I'll freely admit that the codex had broken units (though it's hard to claim guardians were the worst thing there with Warp Spiders staring you in the face).

But the most broken codex is and always will be the 2nd edition Space Wolf codex.


As for improving shuriken weapons, surely a reasonable improvement can be provided without making them OP. There is a very large grey middle ground that is possible between "useless" and "broken".

 JOHIRA wrote:
it's hard to claim guardians were the worst thing there with Warp Spiders staring you in the face

I completely agree with you on that one. They were the single best thing in any list.

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I'd have to agree with gorgon here. Being a 2nd Ed player myself and having the relevant Codices to hand, a Guardian with a Shuricat is 14pts, compared to a SM from the Ultramarines codex at 30pts each with a slightly inferior weapon (same stats without the sustained fire).

So for the cost of a Vanilla Tac Squad you could have nearly three times the amount of Guardians....

As much as I would like to get into this (I want to work out the maths on this but I'll have to wait till I'm home with my codex's ) - we're off topic. We're in the eldar rumours thread. Can we continue this in another thread?

 JOHIRA wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Who took Dire Avengers when Guardians with shuricats mowed down SMs like wheat while being fielded in uber-VP efficient sub-100 pt units? The second edition Eldar codex was almost certainly the most broken codex in any edition, and shuricat Guardians were among the worst offenders in that codex.

Let's not over state the claim. I was an Eldar player as far back as 2nd edition and I'll freely admit that the codex had broken units (though it's hard to claim guardians were the worst thing there with Warp Spiders staring you in the face).

But the most broken codex is and always will be the 2nd edition Space Wolf codex.

JOHIRA's right, of course!

We're all veering OT though too... so unless there are some actual rumors, or news, to discuss, it might be time to close up shop until there is?

 Alpharius wrote:

We're all veering OT though too... so unless there are some actual rumors, or news, to discuss, it might be time to close up shop until there is?

The accurate Tau rules rumors started about a month before the release IIRC, so we're due for an increase of info any day now... assuming the June release is correct.

Its almost TOO quiet. Feels like the ultimate hastings troll (as unlikely as that is) and with Faeit still not up there seems to be no news feed at all. So I am gonna tempt fate here with a gamble. If no Eldar Codex is out within a month of now I will sell off all 30k points I have... and it better come out...

Like in old times: Without ghost21 making up new rumours every day, no news feed at all
All serious rumours will end here in no time though.

When will WDs be received? Next weekend is when the Advanced Orders should go up.

uberjoras wrote:
Being older when it comes to being a soldier though usually does mean you're better - an eldar soldier has probably been in combat for more hours than many humans and some space marines have even been alive! With that comes great competence at whatever task you've dedicated yourself to - be it flying around throwing bombs everywhere or sneaking up and going ape on stuff.

Honestly, I think most eldar ought to be ws5/bs5. In addition to a mild range buff on shuriken weaponry, and a change to codex psychic powers (maybe Guide becomes ignore cover?) this could make for a very elite army in which many units could actually go up in cost.

Eldar are patient, swift, agile, and crafty. Marines are genetically engineered super beings that are stronger, faster, more athletic, and easily more ambitious. Being older doesn't offer an advantage beyond wisdom. The body and it's ability eventually plateau. It has limitations. Eldar spend more time hiding and travelling anymore than fighting. Eldar's ability lies more in the spiritual and psychic realm. You will see that in the upcoming codex, by the way. Marines are genetically enhanced, bred, and taught nothing but war. That's it. Eldar think about things beyond war. They exist for things other than war. They try to connect to dimensions and spirits outside of the physical realm. Space Marines don't. They know nothing else.

The stat-line of a marine basically showcases that they are better at everything, which is sufficient to fluff and reality. There's a reason for weight-classes in boxing, wrestling, and MMA. Just saying...

In physical competition, which is what the unit's stat-line represents (outside of Ld), Space Marines outclass Eldar in every way. Eldar should be superior to Imperial Guardsmen, who are remarkable humans in their own right, but not as skilled. Imperial Guardsmen are the base stat-line by which all other races are measured; not Space Marines. Factor in equipment and other abilities, and it's clear that Eldar troops are slightly better than Guardsmen. There is no place for an argument that a basic Eldar troop should have equal WS/BS to, and certainly not higher than, a Space Marine.

I disagree with parts of the above post. Being genetically superior to an average human is irrelevant when comparing to other races. Having power armour in addition I agree should represent an overall competitive unit but banshees should be better in melee for instance due to superior skill and technology. I agree in relation to guardians but not across the board.

 brassangel wrote:

uberjoras wrote:
Being older when it comes to being a soldier though usually does mean you're better - an eldar soldier has probably been in combat for more hours than many humans and some space marines have even been alive! With that comes great competence at whatever task you've dedicated yourself to - be it flying around throwing bombs everywhere or sneaking up and going ape on stuff.

Honestly, I think most eldar ought to be ws5/bs5. In addition to a mild range buff on shuriken weaponry, and a change to codex psychic powers (maybe Guide becomes ignore cover?) this could make for a very elite army in which many units could actually go up in cost.

Eldar are patient, swift, agile, and crafty. Marines are genetically engineered super beings that are stronger, faster, more athletic, and easily more ambitious. Being older doesn't offer an advantage beyond wisdom. The body and it's ability eventually plateau. It has limitations. Eldar spend more time hiding and travelling anymore than fighting. Eldar's ability lies more in the spiritual and psychic realm. You will see that in the upcoming codex, by the way. Marines are genetically enhanced, bred, and taught nothing but war. That's it. Eldar think about things beyond war. They exist for things other than war. They try to connect to dimensions and spirits outside of the physical realm. Space Marines don't. They know nothing else.

The stat-line of a marine basically showcases that they are better at everything, which is sufficient to fluff and reality. There's a reason for weight-classes in boxing, wrestling, and MMA. Just saying...

In physical competition, which is what the unit's stat-line represents (outside of Ld), Space Marines outclass Eldar in every way. Eldar should be superior to Imperial Guardsmen, who are remarkable humans in their own right, but not as skilled. Imperial Guardsmen are the base stat-line by which all other races are measured; not Space Marines. Factor in equipment and other abilities, and it's clear that Eldar troops are slightly better than Guardsmen. There is no place for an argument that a basic Eldar troop should have equal WS/BS to, and certainly not higher than, a Space Marine.

you obviously never heard of the Beil Tan Craft World, nor the Ulthwe. Those two craft worlds blow your statements out of the water.

 brassangel wrote:
Eldar are patient, swift, agile, and crafty. Marines are genetically engineered super beings that are stronger, faster, more athletic, and easily more ambitious. Being older doesn't offer an advantage beyond wisdom. The body and it's ability eventually plateau. It has limitations. Eldar spend more time hiding and travelling anymore than fighting. Eldar's ability lies more in the spiritual and psychic realm. You will see that in the upcoming codex, by the way. Marines are genetically enhanced, bred, and taught nothing but war. That's it. Eldar think about things beyond war. They exist for things other than war. They try to connect to dimensions and spirits outside of the physical realm. Space Marines don't. They know nothing else.

The stat-line of a marine basically showcases that they are better at everything, which is sufficient to fluff and reality. There's a reason for weight-classes in boxing, wrestling, and MMA. Just saying...

In physical competition, which is what the unit's stat-line represents (outside of Ld), Space Marines outclass Eldar in every way. Eldar should be superior to Imperial Guardsmen, who are remarkable humans in their own right, but not as skilled. Imperial Guardsmen are the base stat-line by which all other races are measured; not Space Marines. Factor in equipment and other abilities, and it's clear that Eldar troops are slightly better than Guardsmen. There is no place for an argument that a basic Eldar troop should have equal WS/BS to, and certainly not higher than, a Space Marine.

I'm not sure you understand what WS/BS really are. Of course a genetically engineered super being is going to be stronger and tougher than an Eldar Aspect Warrior, that's just down to physical capability. But weapon and ballistic skill represent their level of training and ability. So yes, while a marine knows nothing but war and training for war, so does an Eldar while on the Path of the warrior (mostly). They can stay on this path for any amount of time, possibly longer than a marine's lifespan, and spend a large portion of it honing their skills and developing them to the point of near-perfection. Add to this that, when in combat, they don their war masks, which block out everything but the current fight, and you get a level of skill that I believe outclasses an average marine, but on a d6 system is about right as equaling them.

I think that people are missing the entire point of the discussion here.

Nobody is claiming that an Eldar should be physically more capable than a Space Marine (except perhaps in BS and definitely in Init, just from being more agile).

What I think people are missing, though, is that the Eldar have had forever and a half to improve their technology, whereas the Imperium has done everything they can to remain stagnant and even afraid of advancement.

With this kind of difference between the two, a Shuriken Catapult absolutely should be better than a Boltgun in its chosen, extremely specialized role (killing infantry). The Bolter, much like the Space Marine itself, is fairly archaic as well as more versatile (the explosive bolt is kind of overkill against meatbags but should be able to blow a tread off of a light tank).

That's pretty much why I feel that the best option for the ShurCat would be: 24" S3 AP5 Assault 2 Rending. If there was a way to give the Boltgun an extra point of Strength against vehicles due to its explosive capabilities, I'd do so.

Tbh you don't even need to take it that far. The basic Catapult catapult doesn't need to be better than the Bolter, I'm pretty sure that any Eldar player would be happy if the Catapult is simply as good as a Bolter, considering that at the moment its probably worse than a Lasgun. 24" S3 AP5 Assault 2 Rending would probably be good for the Avenger Catapult, just lose Rending for the Guardians.

Powerguy wrote:
Tbh you don't even need to take it that far. The basic Catapult catapult doesn't need to be better than the Bolter, I'm pretty sure that any Eldar player would be happy if the Catapult is simply as good as a Bolter, considering that at the moment its probably worse than a Lasgun. 24" S3 AP5 Assault 2 Rending would probably be good for the Avenger Catapult, just lose Rending for the Guardians.

I would be happy with just a pure increase in range by 1' for all assault Shurikens aside from the pistol which SHOULD stay at 1'. I never understood why a Guardian rifle had the same range as a pistol.

Lets talk about Support Weapon batteries now though... anyone else think that the vibro and d-cannon should have a range increase (12" for vibro and 6" for d-cannon?) and an increase in str for the vibro and shadow weaver? Not to mention anything with a pie plate that is shuriken oriented should have the same stats as the Nightspinner, just varying on barrage and size of plate.

I don't really think the shadow weavers S should increase. Every other weapon of that kind is S6. (Spiders, night spinner) But I think it should have the same effects as the nightspinner. Force difficult and dangerous terrain tests and rend, but let the S remain at 6. It's not a bright lance

Isn't the Shadow weaver s4 or 5?

Nah, I'm quite sure it's 6. If it isn't a lance or catapult then it's usually S6

...ok. Laser lances are probably 6 as well ^^

I wonder if they go the Deamon way and make warlocks more powerfull to boost ordinary infantry (the way daemonic heralds do). In other words, guardians and such get a point drop, but need to pay up 75-100 points of warlook to do a decent job.
That would also make wraithguards a horrible opponent, even with a T drop.

Webway portals with Assault ability would be great for the aspect warriors, and would surely piss the Dark Cousins of (but then again, they got all the goodies of our finest assault aspects put in one incubi choise).
I suppose they cant go to far from the DE codex when it comes to stats, but the craftworlders need some edge that dont just copy the DE awesome troops and open topped transport skimmers.

Powerguy wrote:
Tbh you don't even need to take it that far. The basic Catapult catapult doesn't need to be better than the Bolter, I'm pretty sure that any Eldar player would be happy if the Catapult is simply as good as a Bolter, considering that at the moment its probably worse than a Lasgun. 24" S3 AP5 Assault 2 Rending would probably be good for the Avenger Catapult, just lose Rending for the Guardians.

Shred is a lot fluffier option for Shuriken weapons than Rending. Then give an extra shot for Avenger Catipults, and make Bladestorm extra shots maybe with pinning.

Banshees need a fix as well, but banshee scream preventing overwatch would help quite a bit. Give them power swords, but Rending as well.

Why would you give Banshees Rending, other than wanting them to perform vs TEQ? That's obviously not their role anymore, we have Harlequins for that. Banshees are dedicated MEQ killers, and they would do that job perfectly well in their current form if they had a decent way to get there.