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Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Salted Diamond wrote:

***This is meant as a discussion question, not a rude retort***

May I ask what your solution would be one how to "fix" guard without platoons? Without a platoon mechanic how else could guard be functional with only 6 10-man squads unless you're paying the extra cost in other units to run a Brigade? (running scions is not an answer)

And may I ask what your solution requires platoons for? It feels like the big thing is continually "We need bodies to be best". The answer is...not really? We just need better order management and some stuff to be split out. We can realistically be able to "horde" the board without going too crazy with actual bodies.

I've been over this heavily before, but here goes:
-Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment.
-Better Order mechanics and "renaming" of officer roles. Senior Officer as HQ choice, with a strat to upgrade them to Regimental Command. Junior Officer as HQ choice, bought in groups of 2. Strat to upgrade them to Staff Officers. Complete gutting of the current Orders and reworking into them as part of a tiered system. SOs have an army-wide Order they issue, which is fairly generic("Take Objectives!"--actions still allow for shooting, bonuses while on objectives, etc. "Wipe Them Out!"--bonus to shooting attacks. Etc), JrOs get a targeted Order they can issue("Dig in!", "Fire on my Target!", etc). RCs get a unique Order based on their Regiment.
-Heavy Weapons Squads become 1-3, split into multiple units as per Heavy Weapons Teams.
-Special Weapons Squads get swapped out in favor of a system ala the Elysian D99 system(Sniper Teams, all flamer squads, demo squads, etc). 2 model pairings that are their own units.
-Command Squads lose access to HWTs and SWs instead becoming a 'unit' that consists of Bodyguards, Astropaths, and the other "Regimental Advisors".

Auxilias are a bit difficult to work with if only because they're not well designed at the moment. Scions should remain an option, but we could theoretically go back to them as Elites and give an all Scion+Navy detachment bonuses.

I mean, all honesty, could you imagine how much different the Guard would feel if Heavy Weapons Teams were their own unit and given a pseudo-character status? If SWS became groups of veterans outfitted for specific roles?

Hording the board doesn't necessarily mean we need "ALL THE MANS!" anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 15:07:44


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

 Kanluwen wrote:
Spoiler:
 Salted Diamond wrote:

***This is meant as a discussion question, not a rude retort***

May I ask what your solution would be one how to "fix" guard without platoons? Without a platoon mechanic how else could guard be functional with only 6 10-man squads unless you're paying the extra cost in other units to run a Brigade? (running scions is not an answer)

And may I ask what your solution requires platoons for? It feels like the big thing is continually "We need bodies to be best". The answer is...not really? We just need better order management and some stuff to be split out. We can realistically be able to "horde" the board without going too crazy with actual bodies.

I've been over this heavily before, but here goes:
-Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment.
-Better Order mechanics and "renaming" of officer roles. Senior Officer as HQ choice, with a strat to upgrade them to Regimental Command. Junior Officer as HQ choice, bought in groups of 2. Strat to upgrade them to Staff Officers. Complete gutting of the current Orders and reworking into them as part of a tiered system. SOs have an army-wide Order they issue, which is fairly generic("Take Objectives!"--actions still allow for shooting, bonuses while on objectives, etc. "Wipe Them Out!"--bonus to shooting attacks. Etc), JrOs get a targeted Order they can issue("Dig in!", "Fire on my Target!", etc). RCs get a unique Order based on their Regiment.
-Heavy Weapons Squads become 1-3, split into multiple units as per Heavy Weapons Teams.
-Special Weapons Squads get swapped out in favor of a system ala the Elysian D99 system(Sniper Teams, all flamer squads, demo squads, etc). 2 model pairings that are their own units.
-Command Squads lose access to HWTs and SWs instead becoming a 'unit' that consists of Bodyguards, Astropaths, and the other "Regimental Advisors".

Auxilias are a bit difficult to work with if only because they're not well designed at the moment. Scions should remain an option, but we could theoretically go back to them as Elites and give an all Scion+Navy detachment bonuses.

I mean, all honesty, could you imagine how much different the Guard would feel if Heavy Weapons Teams were their own unit and given a pseudo-character status? If SWS became groups of veterans outfitted for specific roles?

Hording the board doesn't necessarily mean we need "ALL THE MANS!" anymore
.


The main problem I see with your options are the same issue guard face right now, they don't have the durability to make such options viable. With every unit able to split fire, a single T3 2W heavy weapons team split from a squad or a 2 man special weapons team would be picked off by 2-3 bolt rife shots. Guard does quantity to offset their lack of quality. Nothing you have suggested changes this.

I partially agree on the command squad point. While I would like to see command squads go back to how they used to act (place for body guards and advisers) I do not think they should loose their access to weapons that they have been able to take since at least 3rd Ed.

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Salted Diamond wrote:

The main problem I see with your options are the same issue guard face right now, they don't have the durability to make such options viable. With every unit able to split fire, a single T3 2W heavy weapons team split from a squad or a 2 man special weapons team would be picked off by 2-3 bolt rife shots. Guard does quantity to offset their lack of quality. Nothing you have suggested changes this.

Cool, shoot at the HWT that is given a pseudo-character protection. Means you're not shooting at something else via split fire and you've had to get yourself into a spot to shoot it. Same thing goes for that 2 man SWT.

Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".

I've said time and time and time and time and time again at this juncture:
Guard cannot and will not be viable until they are given a complete rework. That means head to toe, everything must be reworked.

HWTs as T3 2W? Yeah, it might not seem crazy good on the surface...but given an "Entrenched" rule where they count as in terrain even in the open and gain a boost to their weapon of choice if they did not move? Where "Weapons Team" is a bespoke rule that grants you the same status as a character while also allowing for you to pawn wounds off on nearby Infantry Squads to have someone "pick up the slack"?

There's a lot that's needed. Platoons ain't it.

I partially agree on the command squad point. While I would like to see command squads go back to how they used to act (place for body guards and advisers) I do not think they should loose their access to weapons that they have been able to take since at least 3rd Ed.

They never acted the way I described. People have always packed them as full of specials as they can. You could throw advisors in to bolster the size of the Command Squad, but it's never been "Advisors and Bodyguards only!!!11!" since I got in with the Doctrines/EOT books.
   
Made in us
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New Hampshire

 Kanluwen wrote:
Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".

That's the whole point of guard, drown the enemy with bodies. And quantity can offset quality. It seems to me that you want all of guard to play more like Scions.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I've said time and time and time and time and time again at this juncture:
Guard cannot and will not be viable until they are given a complete rework. That means head to toe, everything must be reworked.

HWTs as T3 2W? Yeah, it might not seem crazy good on the surface...but given an "Entrenched" rule where they count as in terrain even in the open and gain a boost to their weapon of choice if they did not move? Where "Weapons Team" is a bespoke rule that grants you the same status as a character while also allowing for you to pawn wounds off on nearby Infantry Squads to have someone "pick up the slack"?

There's a lot that's needed. Platoons ain't it.
Giving them such rules does not enough to help their durability as they are simply going from a 5+ to 4+. If they could pawn off wounds to a squad, it would just weaken/kill the squad off along with them, and a smart opponent would simply wipe the squad first or charge into engagement range of both. Platoons would give the extra bodies that would make such loses mean less to the guard player.
 Kanluwen wrote:

They never acted the way I described. People have always packed them as full of specials as they can. You could throw advisors in to bolster the size of the Command Squad, but it's never been "Advisors and Bodyguards only!!!11!" since I got in with the Doctrines/EOT books.

When officers were a part of the command squad as opposed to separate, most guard players I knew would only load up special weapons for anti-charge use. Company command squads would get bodyguards, astropaths. MOO's, etc... Making the officer part of the squad again I feel would return them to close to what you seem to be wanting. They still needs guardsmen in the command squads to give the options for vox, medic, flags, etc...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 17:13:12


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".

That's the whole point of guard, drown the enemy with bodies. And quantity can offset quality. It seems to me that you want all of guard to play more like Scions.

Or the Cadians. Or the Tallarn. Or the Tanith. Or the Steel Legion. Or the Catachans. Or the Elysians.

The "whole point of Guard" is that they are intended to be professional soldiery drawn from across the Imperium. Can they "drown the enemy with bodies"? Sure. But that's not what you do with your veteran shock infantry or stealthers.

Not every regiment is Valhallan or Cannonfodderonian.

The whole "drown the enemy with bodies" bit is a bit overplayed at this juncture anyways. It was in reference to them versus, say, the Eldar or Tau or Astartes--factions that are supposed to be unwilling or unable to absorb casualties, while the Guard can just tithe a new regiment.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Salted Diamond wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".

That's the whole point of guard, drown the enemy with bodies. And quantity can offset quality. It seems to me that you want all of guard to play more like Scions.

Or the Cadians. Or the Tallarn. Or the Tanith. Or the Steel Legion. Or the Catachans. Or the Elysians.

The "whole point of Guard" is that they are intended to be professional soldiery drawn from across the Imperium. Can they "drown the enemy with bodies"? Sure. But that's not what you do with your veteran shock infantry or stealthers.

Not every regiment is Valhallan or Cannonfodderonian.

The whole "drown the enemy with bodies" bit is a bit overplayed at this juncture anyways. It was in reference to them versus, say, the Eldar or Tau or Astartes--factions that are supposed to be unwilling or unable to absorb casualties, while the Guard can just tithe a new regiment.

But all those regiments (except maybe Tanith) do still use massed infantry to make up for their (relative) weakness, maybe not in the suicidal way that Valhallan or Krieg, but still with large numbers. Lore wise they just use slightly different tactics in how to utilize those numbers based upon their regiment.

As you are so against platoons, how would you fix the guard Infantry squads?

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Salted Diamond wrote:

But all those regiments (except maybe Tanith) do still use massed infantry to make up for their (relative) weakness, maybe not in the suicidal way that Valhallan or Krieg, but still with large numbers. Lore wise they just use slightly different tactics in how to utilize those numbers based upon their regiment.

Which is a huge difference in and of itself. It's also worth mentioning that even those factions like the Cadians which use "massed infantry"? They're only "massed" like that in apocalyptic scale events. Otherwise they operate much like a real world army does today or most highly trained armies did circa WW2.

As you are so against platoons, how would you fix the guard Infantry squads?

Not going to go beyond this...

3 different versions, based upon the actual model visuals:
-Heavy(Cadian/Vostroyan)
-Mid(Krieg/Elysian)
-Light(Tallarn, Tanith, Catachan, Valhallan)
3 bespoke unit "types", each with a different statline, rules, and items available to the squad.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/11 18:50:52


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Individual units of two guardsman would just be plain obnoxious to play.

Your opponent would have to be constantly split firing attacks, that takes ages to resolve.
You'd have to be moving and firing your teams individually, that takes ages to resolve.

"But Tau drones do it too". Yeah, and they're universally hated it for it. Thats despite the fact that 1 drone is individually about equal to 2 Guardsmen.

It would also be horrific efficiency for using strategems.

So no, this is not a solution, to anything.

Proper handling of orders with levels of officers is a great idea though, I would love to see that.
IMO Individual squads of Guardsman absolutely need to be useful. 10 Guardsman disembarking from a Chimera and unloading should feel like a useful contribution to the battlefield. These are highly trained and professional soldiers. It's ridiculous when I see players not even bothering to shoot their lasguns because the damage is so pitiful it's not worth picking up the dice.

But I don't know how to solve that. They have really fethed up the scaling of 40k now that marines are 2 wounds.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

Despite the fact that I helped derail this tactics thread.....

Not for super competitive meta's, what do people think about putting a HWT in a command squad. I was thinking of putting a platoon commander with a HW squad in the back (for Take Aim or Bring it Down) and was thinking adding a command squad for an extra HWT at BS 3 and to help prevent the officer from getting plinked easily. My thought are HB's or Lascannon's (ya, I know what people think about Lascannon's but rule of cool is in play here for my models). Do people think there is any viability in doing such? Any of the Heavy weapon options better (excluding mortars)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/11 22:43:59


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Individual units of two guardsman would just be plain obnoxious to play.

Like I said, this wouldn't be something you just copy/paste over.

The Special Weapon list needs to be overhauled, heavily, for Guard anyways. Some of that stuff should be reworked to a "Veteran Issued Kit"(Plasma, Melta, Sniper Rifles) and could also be lore-wise introduced as Junior Officer/Sergeant options. Special Weapons should be things like Grenade Launcher, Flamer, Heavy Stubber, and something along the lines of the "Treadfethers" from Gaunt's Ghosts lore(semi-disposable anti-tank launchers that could be operated by one soldier who gets fed rockets rather than the full on Missile Launcher that HWTs have).

Ideally, Special Weapon Squads would be broken up into Special Weapons Teams. A sniper+spotter, stubber operator+ammo goon, etc. More mobile versions of a HWT than just being "individual units of two guardsmen".

Your opponent would have to be constantly split firing attacks, that takes ages to resolve.
You'd have to be moving and firing your teams individually, that takes ages to resolve.

Not any more annoying or obnoxious than 50 model blob squads with a bunch of random special weapons and HWTs in them were or the dumpsterfire that is the Skitarii weapon options now because of Kill Team compatibility.

"But Tau drones do it too". Yeah, and they're universally hated it for it. Thats despite the fact that 1 drone is individually about equal to 2 Guardsmen.

Tau drones do something wildly different. They detach from their parent unit and their biggest "hate" on from people has to do with their ability to intercept wounds.

It would also be horrific efficiency for using strategems.

So what? Stratagem efficiency is not and should never be a deciding factor for gameplay. Also worth mentioning that there's nothing stopping, say, a specific level of Officer improving stratagem efficiency around them.

So no, this is not a solution, to anything.

Far more of a solution than "let's just keep everything as it is". 40k is amusingly enough becoming a reflection of the lore, with stagnation being the word of the day when it comes to a lot of these factions.

But I don't know how to solve that. They have really fethed up the scaling of 40k now that marines are 2 wounds.

The 2W Marines isn't the issue.

The issue is and continues to be that Guardsmen aren't scaled properly. Somehow they're supposed to be the "baseline" while also being "less than" everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Salted Diamond wrote:
Despite the fact that I helped derail this tactics thread.....

Not for super competitive meta's, what do people think about putting a HWT in a command squad. I was thinking of putting a platoon commander with a HW squad in the back (for Take Aim or Bring it Down) and was thinking adding a command squad for an extra HWT at BS 3 and to help prevent the officer from getting plinked easily. My thought are HB's or Lascannon's (ya, I know what people think about Lascannon's but rule of cool is in play here for my models). Do people think there is any viability in doing such? Any of the Heavy weapon options better (excluding mortars)

It's a waste of an Elite slot taking the Command Squad if you're just going to corner camp.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 23:10:10


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





I've been over this heavily before, but here goes:
-Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment.


That's never going to happen. So if I take 12 infantry squads, each with a single heavy weapon team. That's now 24 separate units.

Then if I take another 3 heavy weapon squads. Those 3 units now split into 9 separate units.

That's 33 units for both you and your opponent to keep track of. That's not including any other choices, which would easily push this over minimum 40 units, potentially even 50.

And you don't want platoons because they're too complicated?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 00:43:50


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Jarms48 wrote:

I've been over this heavily before, but here goes:
-Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment.


That's never going to happen. So if I take 12 infantry squads, each with a single heavy weapon team. That's now 24 separate units.

And if HWTs are priced appropriately for having + to cover, Look Out Sir equivalent, and a downside in the form of their Heavy Weapons becoming Move OR Fire(no both!) etc...you're looking at halving those numbers because of points going up. Possibly more if implementing a Heavy, Light, and Mid styled Infantry Squad with each one having a different pool of things to draw from(LIS having 0 HWTs but getting 3x Veteran Issued Weapons+1 Special, Heavy getting 3x VIWs but 0 specials and their own unique Heavy Weapon choices for example) because again points would be a thing.

Then if I take another 3 heavy weapon squads. Those 3 units now split into 9 separate units.

Yes, that's a thing that can happen. It's not really a huge deal.

That's 33 units for both you and your opponent to keep track of. That's not including any other choices, which would easily push this over minimum 40 units, potentially even 50.

And you don't want platoons?

People say they want horde Guard, but apparently that just means "big numbers in squads"...heavens forbid someone make a suggestion that doesn't reflect that!


I get that these changes sound pants on head crazy. I legit thought I was being nuts messing around with them initially. But playing around with it over covid has shown me that yeah, it can work...but the points values have to be right and holy hell are you going to have to actually rejig basically everything because you'd need to rework Infantry Squads into 3 separate units each with their own dynamic(Lights being the cover boosted units, lacking in Heavy Weapon Teams but gaining a more 'veteran' flavor to them with some forward deployment rules and access to more veteran issued weapons while Heavy Infantry Squads lack Heavy Weapon Teams but instead get guys toting around belt-fed heavy stubbers, hellguns as standard, and again being more 'veteran' focused while MIS are a balance of 1x VIW, 1x Special, and 1x HWT) while also keeping Conscripts as a viable option(which, btw, is to make them similar to Lights but no HWTs or VIWs and give them an increased squad size as base with a rule allowing for Commissars as 'free' HQ options similar to Runtherds+Gretchins). The bonus to that approach? It opens up some new avenues for Regimental Traits. Imagine Catachans getting a 'superbonus' to their LIS while their HIS and MIS just get a 'regular' bonus, for an example.

The problem is that it requires a genuine willpower to see it happen and the 40k design team doesn't seem to have that because god forbid they rock the boat and make it so that players can't use everything they already own with ease. Guard are just going to continue to limp around in a design space where they're a lesser version of GSC, Tau, and Skitarii for the immediate future unless it happens and we'll all just keep arguing around about crap like this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 00:56:15


 
   
Made in us
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New Hampshire

We all know nothing of what you are suggesting is ever going to happen so let’s get back to talking about current units and their uses

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






 Kanluwen wrote:
Fair enough, but there's really no reason for a lot of them to still be in there.

Yarrick, frankly, needs to begone. Replace him with Raine if we "need" a Commissar, she's at least got a bit of an open background now.


And that right there is why anything you say lll just ignore.

"Don't Feed the Troll"

ETC is the forum equivalent of a short bus. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I have never thought the guard should be a horde. hats Nids, cultists, Orks, all races that outnumber them int he fluff. The guard horde is the fact their commanders treat their lives as ammunition, so more send in the next wave (next game) than lots of bodies on the table.

There are plenty of suggestions on how to rework the Guard, I have stuck loads up.

Mine boil down to simplification and professionalisation, mixed in with more character for regiments.

For example - Guard squads should get free Vox's and basic special weapons (flamers, snipers, Grenade launchers and I would add heavy stubbers to that list if I could), paying only for plasma and melta or heavy weapons. They aren't hive trash, but drilled, trained soldiers supplied by the galaxies biggest logistics operation. Cultists in uniforms they are not.

The rules should be simplified and speeded up. For example Vox becomes unlimited range (less than a lasgun is silly), First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire means your shots hit automatically rather than doubling the amount of 4+ dice you roll, re-roll ones to wound becomes +1 to wound roll, medi-kits cost go up if necessary but automatically work rather than on a 4+, etc. etc.

And greater characterisation of the signature regiments. For for example Steel Legion don't have Vox's in infantry squads, but do count as having a vox if they are inside or within 2" of a Chimera. And instead of issuing orders to infantry that turn, an officer can issue one tank order to a Chimera.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and of course there is a horde of stuff that can get a rework. For example I would merge command squads with the platoon commander. But to keep the visual spectacle if it includes a Standard the unit counts as a character. More flags!

Just having them as glorified special weapons teams is basically a shame.

As others have said there is lots that can be done to have a really thematic, fun and faster to play army. GW doesn't do games though, they do models. Well except the guard. They mostly sell old models.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/13 10:38:29


 
   
Made in ca
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





The Frozen North

I think it's pretty safe to assume Vox Casters will work as the Data Tethers do in Adeptus Mechanicus. A la:

"Select one friendly <REGIMENT> INFANTRY unit within 6" of this model or one friendly <REGIMENT> INFANTRY VOX CASTER unit anywhere on the battlefield"

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in us
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New Hampshire

 MinMax wrote:
I think it's pretty safe to assume Vox Casters will work as the Data Tethers do in Adeptus Mechanicus. A la:

"Select one friendly <REGIMENT> INFANTRY unit within 6" of this model or one friendly <REGIMENT> INFANTRY VOX CASTER unit anywhere on the battlefield"

Back in 4th before orders, that's how vox worked. Unlimited range on the leadership bubble of the officer if both had a vox (even if the officer was in reserve)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 16:46:50


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
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New Hampshire

For Leman Russ Demolishers (I'm running 2) are sponson Heavy Bolters worth it or are they best just naked (only hull HB). My punisher is running with them, but curious if they are warranted on the Demolishes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/14 16:57:11


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Are your players easily killing your tanks? If not, yes. If they are dying quickly you are probably better sticking the heavy weapon somewhere else.
   
Made in fr
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 Kanluwen wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.


I just doesn't seem feasible for Guard these days. As I said, there's 7 different leman russ variants. We cannot possibly have a datasheet for all of them. Between Pask, a Tank Commander, and the standard Russ. That's 21 datasheets just for each variant.

Then there's hellhounds. That's another 3 separate datasheets.

If anything's happening, I'm expecting Russes to get broken into "Siege", "Ambushers", and "Support" tanks or something.

Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.

We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.

Why?

Seriously. What does a platoon do that we cannot do now?

The problem with Guard is, bluntly, that they're sitting on an army design philosophy that is wildly outmoded and needs to be reenvisioned entirely.

The platoon structure is very important because it would completely rebalance the internal balance of the codex's infantry options.

For the unaware, old platoon worked as a single troops selection. Think detachment in a detachment, of the following

1 platoon commander
1 platoon command squad
2-5 infantry squads
0-1 conscript squad
0-5 special weapon squad
0-3 heavy weapon squad

This matters for a ton of reasons

1. Platoons were deployed as one unit. In the age of alternative deployment, platoon deployment would speed up the game a lot.

2. Conscripts have been nerfed multiple times because before they were just better infantry squads. Tie them to platoons again, and you can make conscripts useful again witthout invalidating infantry squads, since the IS have to be bought alongside the conscripts in a platoon

3. This also extends to veteran squads. As is, special weapon squads and command squads make them pointless, since the latter can be taken by themselves. Implement platoons, and now SWS and CCS are tied to infantry squads for the most part again. Now vets have a purpose as cheap special weapon delivery troops that are cheaper than stormtroopers and platoons. Then you could even return them to being troops, as they should be.

4. Heavy weapon squads can actually be taken in decent numbers again. Many IG platoon orgs show more heavy weapons in a single platoon than you can currently take in a 2000pt game. Plus tying them to infantry squads again ensures a tax, preventing them from being cheaply spammed in an OP way. Same ligic as the conscript and SWS examples above.


Platoons are not about just making efficient use of the force org chart. They were critical to the IG codex's internal balance, as shown by the fact that infantry units have been all over the place since we lost the platoon in 8th. You cannot just take these units that were meant to be taken in platoons, throw them into the main force org, and expect things to not be messed up. Bringing back platoons is the only way to fix all the wonky internal balance when it comes to IG infantry units.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR


Hey folks, quick question here: on battlescribe it lists the vulcan mega-bolter as both a heavy 16 and a heavy 20... which is it?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

After playing my 1st game of 9th Edition with my IG, I have several thoughts:

The first is that I really hate the bookkeeping to track scoring, but I like the extra activity on the board to get those points.

The second is that melta weapons seem to be a better option than plasma weapons in my first game. Terrain limited firing ranges and most MEQ are 3+ armor with multiple wounds. I often found my squads firing at ranges under 12 inches and my opponent excelled at rolling 6s for saving throws.

I may swap my vanilla LRBTs for Demolishers. The extra strength and AP looks good and I rarely fired more than 24 inches. Too much obscuring terrain.

The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

I like meltas when you have a single weapon and thats it. An infantry squad for example. It lets them hit far above their weight without needing orders or abilities.

Plasma shines en masse taken on multiple models in a squad. Your SWS, CCS, stormtroopers, etc. That way you can stack bonuses and make them shine

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





France, region of Paris

Isn't the single melta gun in a line infantry squad too much of a gamble ? You may often have one turn of use of it. I'm currently thinking of taking strong heavy weapons in infantry squads (laser cannons or missile launchers), and put all my meltas in a command squad (mechanized or outflanking). But I lack 9th edition practice ATM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 22:23:48


longtime Astra Militarum neckbeard  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




leerm02 wrote:

Hey folks, quick question here: on battlescribe it lists the vulcan mega-bolter as both a heavy 16 and a heavy 20... which is it?


It's both. A Macharius has a heavy 16 vulcan mega-bolter, and a Stormlord has a heavy 20 vulcan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Salted Diamond wrote:
For Leman Russ Demolishers (I'm running 2) are sponson Heavy Bolters worth it or are they best just naked (only hull HB). My punisher is running with them, but curious if they are warranted on the Demolishes.


Sponsons are great as point fillers if you don't have the models. If you do have the models, always take more. That's my rule of thumb for Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ravajaxe wrote:
Isn't the single melta gun in a line infantry squad too much of a gamble ? You may often have one turn of use of it. I'm currently thinking of taking strong heavy weapons in infantry squads (laser cannons or missile launchers), and put all my meltas in a command squad (mechanized or outflanking). But I lack 9th edition practice ATM.


I wouldn't bother with heavy weapon team lascannons or missile launchers ATM. A lascannon on a tank commander or valkyrie is fine, because they have abilities to hit on 3+ and at least have some durability.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/15 22:53:17


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Isn't the single melta gun in a line infantry squad too much of a gamble ? You may often have one turn of use of it. I'm currently thinking of taking strong heavy weapons in infantry squads (laser cannons or missile launchers), and put all my meltas in a command squad (mechanized or outflanking). But I lack 9th edition practice ATM.


It is a cheap 7 point gamble in 9th Edition. I have 7 infantry squads so 7 melta guns. Cadians reroll 1s if the firing unit is stationary and infantry reroll all misses if a Take Aim order is given, so the melta guns will hit every once in a while. The Relic of Lost Cadia and the Overlapping Fires strategem also help to increase the regularity of melta hits. Quantity helps too.

The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




It is a cheap 7 point gamble in 9th Edition. I have 7 infantry squads so 7 melta guns. Cadians reroll 1s if the firing unit is stationary and infantry reroll all misses if a Take Aim order is given, so the melta guns will hit every once in a while. The Relic of Lost Cadia and the Overlapping Fires stratagem also help to increase the regularity of melta hits. Quantity helps too.


7 point? A Guardsmen is 5.5 points and a melta gun is 5, that's minimum 10.5 points.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

Jarms48 wrote:
It is a cheap 7 point gamble in 9th Edition. I have 7 infantry squads so 7 melta guns. Cadians reroll 1s if the firing unit is stationary and infantry reroll all misses if a Take Aim order is given, so the melta guns will hit every once in a while. The Relic of Lost Cadia and the Overlapping Fires stratagem also help to increase the regularity of melta hits. Quantity helps too.


7 point? A Guardsmen is 5.5 points and a melta gun is 5, that's minimum 10.5 points.


I should have said it was a 5 point gamble. Melta guns are dirt cheap in infantry squads now. The 5.5 for the guardsman is a sunk cost because I would run the 7 squads anyway.

The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

I have 25 points left a list, would adding a 3rd platoon commander for the extra order be a good place to spend it? I'm running around 90 infanty. My other though, mainly due to modeling reasons as I'm using the Roland turrets from Blood and Skulls would be heavy stubbers for my tanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 17:56:48


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I have 25 points left a list, would adding a 3rd platoon commander for the extra order be a good place to spend it? I'm running around 90 infanty. My other though, mainly due to modeling reasons as I'm using the Roland turrets from Blood and Skulls would be heavy stubbers for my tanks.


What's the rest of your list? How many orders do you have already? I normally try to have 1 order for every 2 or 3 infantry squads (depending on how many infantry I have).

Platoon Commanders are always a good choice, but if you already have 5 or 6 orders already you don't really need more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 22:44:42


 
   
 
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