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Welcome to Warmachine.

Posted By BaconSlayer on 10/03/2006 12:27 PM
Kommisar [sic] quoth:

Have you ever read a GW armybook/ rulebook?

Yup, though I have never (to my knowlege) read a sticker of text in a GW rulebook.

As already stated GW makes you break out the scissors and paste when they need to fix their own rules. PP publicly announced that their was a problem and then fixed said problem before it was released.  You cant even tell its a sticker unless you examine it. I find solice in the fact that it is a company that actually cares about their products and their customers.

Wow, people are actually going to try compare GW to this? Maybe if GW released a 4th edition book that had all codices and the main rulebook, including all FAQs, and sold it all for $40 (OK, fine, maybe $50...) there would be a comparison. However, realistically speaking, I bet it would only be 4th + Marines and you'd pay $60 for it since the marines are the super-secret bonus version. The one with the real-working drop pod rules!

So this will have all the rules ever made? I never got any WM rulebook and I'd prefer to have just one book for everything. I expect the old rulebooks to become super-cheap after this is released, so people who already have the rulebooks should sell them on ebay now.

Then what exactly do you call THIS? I don't see this as fixing a problem 'before it was released'.

Posted By malfred on 10/03/2006 10:53 PM
That post is speculation.

Rules != stickers?

I dunno.

No, that post is NOT speculation on whether or not there will be a rules change, but what the chages will be.  Read the links in the very first post to statements by PPS_Matt that there will be rules 'tweaks'.

What's your point Ghaz?

My point is clear that PP is not as faultless as everyone makes them out to be. If you are going to accuse GW of having to go back and change rules, then you will have to accuse PP of doing the same as well because that is what they're doing.

i agree with Ghaz, everyone makes PP out to be some sort of sainthood when they are just as money grubbing with as many if not more holes in thier rules as GW. Now granted they put out more errata than GW, but man when Hordes came out there were a ton of rulings that needed help. Im' not sure how it is now because as soon as they announced the $100 cavalry units I immediately sold every mini i had, but i know what it was like in April and May. And the bright side of GW is you truly and technically only need your main rulebook and your current codex (be it last years release or 6 years ago), not 4 books and 3 magazines to keep up with your army.

Privateer is not prefect, but people are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because of their track record. I trust PP to do it right, and if they make a mistake they will fix it quickly. I no longer trust GW, they have consistantly abused the trust I did have in them.

Yes there will be rules "tweaks". The difference is Privateer is taking the oppotunity to do them while releasing a new book the fans have requested. As a opposed to rewriting them every 4-5 years as their business plan.

2.0: Was your rulebook missing pages or something?

But there's a huge difference between fixing editing mistakes and fine tuning rules (which is what that link was in regards to). Heck, I wish GW actually fine-tuned rules instead of creating new issues with new rulesets.

However, Kommisar's point was not in regards to rules tweaks. PP made additional effort to fix a major editing mistake. What did GW/FW do when a completely unedited copy of IA was printed and sold? What about the slew of typos in the wargear book?

PP isn't faultless but nobody said they were faultless. What's been pointed out is that PP has a better record then GW of acknowledging those faults and fixing them. I can't see how that's in dispute.

There's a difference between giving them the benefit of the doubt and making them out to be saints that can do no wrong just so someone can slam GW.

The same thing happens in FOW or SST threads. People slam GW because they want to and to a degree they deserve it. GW only has its self to blame for the bitterness of its fanbase. Ripping on PP because your a GW fanboy is no different.

i'm not a fanboy of anyone. but i'm not blind to the fact that PP has near as many problems, but on a smaller level because they are still a smaller entity. Wait to see if they ever go corporate and then we'll see how well they stay in touch with everyone.

And the missing pages comment, what was that in reference to?

GW has been around for ages now. Longer than some of it's players have been alive. They have gone through periods of good rules, and lots of fixes, to the chaos that they have now. They seem to be slowly stepping back up to the plate. Only time will tell.

PP is still quite new and small. Only time will tell how good they are.

Yes, PP fixes a lot, but you also have to keep very up to date on the forums to keep up. It is nice, but also bad if you don't have acess or rarely check. They do have inconcise rules and outright problems in some of the base books. They tend to fix things when they find out. Yes, it is nice of them.

No game is perfect, and everyone would benefit from a little less "my game is better" syndrome. It's very kindegarten. Bashing on GW just because is getting pretty old. If you don't like it, don't play it, don't whinge about it.

Ghaz, are you a company man?

I'll tell you what the difference here is, Privateer Press will admit when they're wrong.  The PR announcement about the stickers is a prime example.  Did they screw it up, yes.  It was a stupid mistake and one of the worst typographical errors I've ever seen in a published work.  I don't know that Games Workshop can claim to have misprinted an entire page.

However, they did put in a fix, put out a PR announcement appologizing for their mistake.  Have you ever, ever seen Games Workshop ever appologize for anything?  For their complete lack of tournament support, for their publish-it-and-be-done-with-it attitude towards rules writing, for the abysmal lack of content in their periodical?

I've changed my mind, the real difference here is that Privateer Press is invested in their own gaming community.  Beyond printing models and rules, they spend time and resources cultivating the community.  The fact that this book even exists suggests a dialogue between the company and its customers.  I've been to three events just in the last two months that had real prize support.  That you can even find a post by PPS_Matt in the Privateer Press forums is evidence of their activity.  Though their forums are often very Warseer-like in its ZOMGness, the developers maintain a centralized list of errata there.  Compare our GW faqs to that.  And then compare No Quarter to White Dwarf.

Very good points. It comes down to attitude. PP's is refreshing change of pace, while GW's is getting stale.

While it may take 4 books and such to play with ALL the rules. At least I know the answer is in there. There is none of this "roll a d6 crap".

Seriously. Privateer Press doesn't have perfect rules and the only ones saying that there is sainthood involved is Ghaz.

I have not heard anyone say that the rules for Warmachine are flawless. Nor have I heard anyone say that Warmachine is completely balanced, that there are no broken units or models.

Nor have I heard anyone say that they will do anything for their fans, like giving Prime: Remix to the original Prime owners.

What we have said is that their rules are leagues more coherent, tight and well defined than GW, particularly 40k. That while Warmachine may have a unit or two that are unbalanced, even that won't win the game for you. At least the tournies aren't 60% Khador 25% Cygnar like the GTs are mostly Iron Warriors & Eldar. You can do well with any of the factions against any of the other factions.

And while they may not be the model of charity to their fans, they are at least on the ball enough to own up to their mistakes, fix their editing issues and they actually listen when their fans ask for something.

Not to mention that they get their FAQs & Errata out in months instead of years
Not to mention that the only major editing issue they have had is in one book, as opposed to a few in every book they put out.
Can you seriously compare the editing of GW vs Privateer and come out thinking that GW is better?

What we are saying is that we don't care. Some of us remember the days of old when there was little to no game support.

No manner of "oh see how great they are" changes the fact some of us enjoy playing GW games. It becomes like any other fruitless arguement, based around politics, religion and food. I have played through different parts of Warmachine. In the end I ended up disliking the game. I dislike the models, I dislike the rules, I dislike the tournaments. You know what I still enjoy? 40k and WHFB. Why? Because of the game, the models, the background. Anything beyond that is cake.

So let everyone go about their business. Let us all have our own opinions. If you don't like it, so be it. Don't play.

I heard that GW set a whole box of orphans on fire on the steps of a church.

Then Privateer Press came along and put out the fire with his own blood and then found homes for all the orphans and gave them all nega-cancer* for Christmas.

 

*nega-cancer is the highly expensive but helpful opposite of cancer. If cancer and nega-cancer collide, they cancel each other out in a shower of delicous candy.

Aw come on guys. How about a poll question that favors us GW fan boys over the Privateer fanboys? Like:

"GW vs PP: Who has a bitz ordering service versus has no interest in ever offering one, even though they are so 'hobby friendly'?

"GW vs PP: Who puts out pages and pages of online and print paint guides for most of their minis, every single month, versus who doesn't care?"

"GW vs PP: Who makes models that actually fit together well?"

This is a useless thread and is designed to cause trouble. I know there are PP fanboys out there just like GW fanboys -- but seriously. Try and co-exist a little? It's not too hard. You just refrain from making posts like:

"GW vs PP: Who makes better Coleman Stryker Models?"

No! I say batman could beat superman.

Honestly I have to agree that this is a silly thread that likely cannot have any positive impact. I expect to be locking it rather soon. . .

 

 

GW vs. PP: I peepee a lot.

Oh I agree. I actually like GW games better. I just wish they ran things more like Privateer Press, then we could all be happier.

Unfortunately, it ends up like this

GW vs PP - Who waits for years to produce a completely uncomprehensive FAQ that ignores vital questions?

GW vs PP - Who doubles prices on models that haven't changed in a decade?

*Also note - PP does put out a gaming magazine, they have painting guides in their books and in the quarterly magazine. They don't have bitz order because there is no demand for it, WM isn't as customizable as 40K, part of the reason I prefer 40K. Still, giving them crap for something that isn't needed isn't really fair.

GW vs PP - Who puts out a useful and interesting gaming magazine on a quarterly basis that has something for the painters, modellers, fluff bunnies AND gamers?

I'm not big on the customization anymore. I hate building entire units with weapons loadouts
that may/may not become obsolete. At least with WHFB a lot of that happens with character
models, which is fine to me.

Are you a company man for Privateer Press, because your post sure makes it sound like you're on their payroll. GW has in the past been involved with the community and all they got for it is comments like the ones I see in this thread. Let's see how Privateer Press would handle all of the vitriol that GW receives from people who supposedly enjoy their game. They would most likely become just as jaded about listening to the players as GW has.


I don't think so. I never said the either company had 'perfect' rules, yet GW is treated like the devil if they 'tweak' some of the rules in a new edition of a codex and yet they act like Privateer Press can do no wrong and it is perfectly okay for them to 'tweak' some rules in an updated version of Prime is just hypocrisy as far as I see it.


I never said either company was flawles. What I said is it's hypocritical to damn on company for it's flaws and then to forgive the other company for the very same flaws.

So no, I'm not a GW 'fanboy' and I'm not a Privateer Press 'fanboy' either like a lot of you seem to be.

Posted By yakface on 10/04/2006 6:06 PM

No! I say batman could beat superman.

Honestly I have to agree that this is a silly thread that likely cannot have any positive impact. I expect to be locking it rather soon. . .

Well, if you're going to be that forthright, let me be the first to say,

Posted By yakface on 10/04/2006 6:06 PM

No! I say batman could beat superman.

Honestly I have to agree that this is a silly thread that likely cannot have any positive impact. I expect to be locking it rather soon. . .

 

 

And you would be mistaken. Batman would be sulking on a gothic precipice overlooking a fetid city when a cruise ship suddenly falls out of the sky  at supersonic speeds turning him into a paste.

gumby is sooooo better than pokey and Axl Rose is gay.

Axl Rose is not gay! he just has some issues to work through...

I say Ghaz vs. Redstripe in a no holds barred cage match.

The survivor has to face down Kyoto Kid in a Ninja vs. Pirates Death Match!

Also in before the Lock.

I agree with Ghaz on this. They aren't saints, and the attitude gets tiring. They do some things good, and other things very poorly.

I think a lot of the people that adore PP and put them up on a pedastel do it simply because they want to bash GW, but still need a game to play.

Their a good company, make some very nice, (and a few fugly) miniatures. They update their rules constantly, and have a cool background.

They also have their faults, and some large problems to work through.