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Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





 SHUPPET wrote:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?


you mean Oldmarines?

Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.

Nothing against Primaris, in fact I like them, but I'm building Fallen and it wouldn't make sense thematically

Essentially what I'm asking is, how crucial is Primaris to a good DA list? And you seem to have answered that fairly well, just wondering how big of a handicap it is?


I love primaris and have primarily built lists in that direction, but the more established DA players never put anything more than hellblasters in their lists. (I think they are missing out on inceptors, but the Deepstrike nerf is a pain to get around). You really aren't losing out if you use Dev squads instead. You don't get the focused fire, but lascannons can outmatch the hellblasters for range and the plasmacannons work just as well for a slight point discount.

I think the final asnwer is that Tourney winning lists will take hellblasters so they can ping the hell out of knights from 30" away and make the knights afraid to come within 15". Really good but not strictly waac lists can take dev squads and probably do just as well, but require a little more skill in placement as you'll be dealing with oldmarine's more limited range and single wound.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

 SHUPPET wrote:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?


you mean Oldmarines?

Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.

Nothing against Primaris, in fact I like them, but I'm building Fallen and it wouldn't make sense thematically

Essentially what I'm asking is, how crucial is Primaris to a good DA list? And you seem to have answered that fairly well, just wondering how big of a handicap it is?


I love my Hellblasters, but I never leave the Rock without at least Devastator Squad armed with Lascannons/Missile Launchers. A Devastator Squad with four Plasma Cannons is less reliable than a Hellblaster Squad in terms of damage output, but it can still put out some pain with WFtDA. A Spearhead consisting of one Devastator Squad with Lascannons and two Devastator Squads with Plasma Cannons led by a Lieutenant (or two) can be a useful firebase for a Dark Angels list.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in au
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





Melbourne, Australia

Honestly, I've pretty much ditched Hellblasters from my lists now. Inceptors are just so much better

Edit: on the topic of non-Primaris DA tho, I think Ravenwing is the way to go. Maybe with a static Dec squad or two thrown in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/21 07:53:30


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Made in au
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

I've been looking closely at mortis dreads instead of devs or predators. I'm thinking one lascannon mortis dread or one autocannon mortis dread parked up the back next to a rhino primaris.

No, the paper does not beat The Rock. 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





For my no-primaris Fallen build, I was thinking of doing something like




Battalion:

Talonmaster
Sammael

Scouts
Scouts
Scouts

Ravenwing Ancient

Ravenwing Darkshroud



Outrider:

Librarian w/ Bike, Aversion + Mind Wipe

3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
3x Ravenwing Black Knights
3x Ravenwing Black Knights



Airwing:

Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon






I love the synergy and speed, however I don't know if it's too few bodies or dice. I haven't run this faction before so I'd like to ask here first. Thoughts?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/22 12:46:25


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in au
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





Melbourne, Australia

Looks pretty good to me. I'd run the RWBK as one unit of 6 to make the most of WotDA.

If you're not against soup I think a guard battalion would probably be more beneficial than the scouts for the extra bodies (edit: and ofc CP regen but that may well be going away this month - I still think it'd be worth it even without the farming)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/22 07:59:49


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Made in ru
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine




 SHUPPET wrote:
For my no-primaris Fallen build, I was thinking of doing something like




Battalion:

Talonmaster
Sammael

Scouts
Scouts
Scouts

Ravenwing Ancient

Ravenwing Darkshroud



Outrider:

Librarian w/ Bike, Aversion + Mind Wipe

3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
3x Ravenwing Black Knights
3x Ravenwing Black Knights



Airwing:

Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon






I love the synergy and speed, however I don't know if it's too few bodies or dice. I haven't run this faction before so I'd like to ask here first. Thoughts?


I think you are putting too much into ravenwing, dark talons, talon master and sammael are great, but i think its better to swap some bikers for plasma inceptors and some smash captains.

Depending on terrain it might not be easy to hide all your black knights and if they are dead you will struglle against monsters and tanks.

in my opinion black knights are too expensive and too vulnerable to alphastrikes

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/22 18:46:40


 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

The list is fine - agree that the Black Knights should roll into one big squad. You've got lots of dakka, so I might add some meltas to the Ravenwing bikers.

I'm not sure what a Fallen themed list drawn from the Dark Angels Codex would look like, but with your no-Primaris restriction I think you have a solid list. I ran something similar at a tourney (lower points though) and I was happy.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in de
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Germany

Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?

I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.
   
Made in ro
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

Aeri wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?

I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.


Because they have a better weapon, the entire squad has it and they can move and shoot. In 8e, standing still is really dangerous

However, Devs aren't bad at all. Hellblasters are just more cost-effective

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User



Quebec

 Vector Strike wrote:
Aeri wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?

I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.


Because they have a better weapon, the entire squad has it and they can move and shoot. In 8e, standing still is really dangerous

However, Devs aren't bad at all. Hellblasters are just more cost-effective


And you will most likely have Azrael or at least a master babysitting them so they will reroll 1 even if they move.
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

Aeri wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?

I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.


I use both Devastators and Hellblasters. The Hellblasters allow you to really benefit from WFtDA if you commit to them. A full squad of ten puts out serious pain and they have some mobility. Azrael goes with them, along with a Lieutenant and an Ancient. The Ap-4 is also something that you cannot ignore (although targets with invuls don't care). My ten-man squad deleted a Baneblade chassis three turns in a row during a tourney in Feb.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I played a 3 round store tournament with both 10 hellblasters and 6 plasma inveptors. The inceptors are where it's at because they don't start on the table as targets. Deep Strike, and the Fly keyword protect them from many threats.

Battlescribe Catalog Editor - Please report bugs here http://battlescribedata.appspot.com/#/repo/wh40k 
   
Made in au
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Aeri wrote:
Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?

I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.


If you like plasma devs, try using them with a rhino primaris. I picked up a Rhino Damocles and im going to build it with a couple of antennas from a darkshroud/LSV box and a couple of servitor skulls and for the twin plasmagun turret I'll use magnets.

I'm thinking a 5 man Dev squad, sgt with combi plasma, 4 plasma cannons and a reload cherub next to a
Rhino Primaris next means they can disembark or move and shoot without the -1 penalty. When stationary they'd all beable to supercharge rerolling 1s and getting +1 to hit. If you're in rapid fire range the combi plasma sgt gets 4 shots the the reload cherub.
There's room in the rhino primaris for a tech marine too, might as well give him a combi plasma. Also there could be a couple of mortis dreads near to him to keep him busy repairing.

Lets make non primaris great again!


No, the paper does not beat The Rock. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Indeed, let's make non-primaris great again. With that in mind; I've been trying really hard to work out the most competitive build I can make with my existing collection, but I keep drawing a blank. I can field most 'old' things including 3 predators, but I have no flyers, no primaris and no smash captains (masters).

I won't list every model (there are 261), but suffice to say I can field:
Various masters on foot, including the DV one who can proxy as Azrael
Various chaplains
Librarian on foot, librarian on bike
A bunch of veterans/lieutenants
6 full tac squads
2 full dev squads
1 full assault squad
1x4 snipers + msl scout
2x5 pistol and CCW scout.
11 black knights
RW Ancient
RW champ
RW Apothecary
21 ravenwing bikes including 2 flamers, 2 meltas and 3 sergeants
15 deathwing knights including 2 masters
2 rhinos
1 droppod
3 predators
1 vindicator
Techmarine
3 dreadnoughts
4 land speeders
1 dark shroud
1 talonmaster/sammael
1 land raider


All I can think of is an Azrael/devastator blob plus ravenwing, but as soon as I try building that I run out of points so fast... I've never been comfortable with elite armies and I think I need help designing one. Not having 50+ models on the board feels wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/23 12:15:05


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Plasma Cannon devs are decent due to price. You typically invest 330pts into hellblasters, Azrael to protect and reroll (180pts), an Lt (63pts), and an ancient (63pts) so that's 636pts which makes a great target.

A dev sqd with 4 PCs and a cherub is 154pts (I'd be tempted to add a few ablatives), but no need to add a reroll aura due to Grim Resolve. It's such a small point cost that you can invest in greater threats elsewhere, but it's still an average of 10 S8 AP-3 3 damage shots (after using cherub). That's a decent return.
   
Made in nl
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun




 bullyboy wrote:
Plasma Cannon devs are decent due to price. You typically invest 330pts into hellblasters, Azrael to protect and reroll (180pts), an Lt (63pts), and an ancient (63pts) so that's 636pts which makes a great target.

A dev sqd with 4 PCs and a cherub is 154pts (I'd be tempted to add a few ablatives), but no need to add a reroll aura due to Grim Resolve. It's such a small point cost that you can invest in greater threats elsewhere, but it's still an average of 10 S8 AP-3 3 damage shots (after using cherub). That's a decent return.


The biggest issue for me is that I use the weapons form the dark ages strategem which works considerably better on a unit of ten plasma guns than on a unit of four. Also the mobility is a important factor. I actually move my in a blob with azrael, lt and ancient and a leviathan dreadnought in front. This combo works really well.
   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





What are people's current "do not leave home without it" units for Dark Angels in 8th?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 13:40:46


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User



Quebec

 Eldarsif wrote:
What are people's current "do not leave home without it" units for Dark Angels in 8th?


Dark Shroud. -1 to hit is so good and it's fast enough to rush foward with RW or it can stay back to protect a gunline. There's just no reason to not bring one.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine




Besides the Darkshroud I would say either Sammael on Land Speeder or a Talonmaster. The amount of dakka that the twin assault cannon/twin heavy bolter put out is amazing.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





St. Louis, MO

Sammy, Dark Shroud, 2-3 Dark Talons, Heavy Bolter Scouts.

11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die.
++

Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Talonmaster and/or Sammeal on speeder are probably the best units in all armies and matchups.

Also good:
Azrael surrounded by primaris marines and an ancient. Dark Talon or two.

I often use a darkshroud but I have mixed feelings about it. It's always the first thing opponents shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and scouts are the best unit in all space marines codexes. Can't forget them. No other Troop unit comes close.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 16:49:16


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Made in us
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine




 axisofentropy wrote:
Talonmaster and/or Sammeal on speeder are probably the best units in all armies and matchups.

Also good:
Azrael surrounded by primaris marines and an ancient. Dark Talon or two.

I often use a darkshroud but I have mixed feelings about it. It's always the first thing opponents shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and scouts are the best unit in all space marines codexes. Can't forget them. No other Troop unit comes close.


Yeah the darkshroud is the first thing they shoot at, but it's doing it's job as long as it's protecting your other units in any way . It will usually eat up more shooting than it's cost and a lot of times all you need is for it to survive a turn to get into range with the rest of your army.

Although, this weekend I had one blow up in the middle of my Azrael bubble....
   
Made in au
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Auto-include Sammy, Talon Master and Dark Shoud.

But then, to keep things thematic I feel I have to take black knights over hellblasters.

No, the paper does not beat The Rock. 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





I have no problem with people shooting at my darkshroud (even better if I went first and advanced to get the 4+ jink), as it's simply an aura with almost zero offensive capability (I always just add the HB since I want to advance with it). It's not going to kill anything so please go ahead and shoot at it.

I need to make a Sammy on Sableclaw as I only have corvex right now. I have the bits, just need the landspeeder. Him, a talon master and a pair of dark talons is serious dakka.

I also think the land Speeder Vengeance is undervalued too, it can do some serious work with the right rolls (but is unreliable).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/25 05:55:56


 
   
Made in au
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.


Plasma inceptors vs black knights.
59 points vs 46 points.
Black knights get to Jink. Inceptors get Crushing Charge.
Black knights get buffs from RW HQs though.
Black knights seem to be better.

No, the paper does not beat The Rock. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Mk X wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.


Plasma inceptors vs black knights.
59 points vs 46 points.
Black knights get to Jink. Inceptors get Crushing Charge.
Black knights get buffs from RW HQs though.
Black knights seem to be better.

Inceptors get Deep Strike, which makes them save against Alpha Strike in T1.
Well, Black Knights will do IMHO an better Alpha Strike because of Speed of the Raven.

Think, it is a list/meta choice descision.
   
Made in au
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Maxamato wrote:
 Mk X wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.


Plasma inceptors vs black knights.
59 points vs 46 points.
Black knights get to Jink. Inceptors get Crushing Charge.
Black knights get buffs from RW HQs though.
Black knights seem to be better.

Inceptors get Deep Strike, which makes them save against Alpha Strike in T1.
Well, Black Knights will do IMHO an better Alpha Strike because of Speed of the Raven.

Think, it is a list/meta choice descision.


Good points and it's good to know the black knights aren't considered obsolete. I have loads of knights but I have zero plasma inceptors.

When it comes to deep striking primaris units I only have 1 3 man unit of assault bolter inceptors. I have regular assault troops, DW Knights and DW Terminators, at the moment I'm considering Reviers over Inceptors. Because they're cheap and may last a while.

No, the paper does not beat The Rock. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Yeah, have about 30 Black Knights and 0 Inceptors but I have 30 Hellbalster too.

30 Hellblaster probably to much?

I'm also thinking about, what actual a competitive DA lsit should consider. (Mono and/or as soup).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have seen, that a lot of people have played Hellblasterblobs, what do you think of such kind of list?

Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment - 433 Pts.
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Azrael - 180 Pts.

1 Lieutenant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Chainsword, 1 x Jump pack - 78 Pts.

*************** 3 Standard ***************
Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts.

Scout Squad
5 Scouts, 4 x Boltgun
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun - 55 Pts.

Tactical Squad
5 Space Marines
+ Sergeant, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt. -65 Pts.

Dark Angels: Outrider Detachment - 1563 Pts.
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Sammael on Corvex - 183 Pts.

*************** 4 Sturm ***************
Ravenwing Darkshroud, Heavy bolter - 138 Pts.

9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.

9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.

9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.
Total: 2.000 Pts

Idea is, that first turn all Black Knights, Azrael, Sammy and Lieutenant stand nearby Azi because of 4++. Darkshroud covers the blob.

My first turn, one BK units advance in front and shoots/charge thanks to SotR and with WftDA. Supported from Sammy as well Lieutenant.

The other Black Knights will conga lineup to Azi.

thoughts?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/25 10:38:37


 
   
 
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