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Made in gb
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BrianDavion wrote:

TESB though... wasn't CYNICAL. Dark yes, cynical no.


Exactly. - Compare and contrast Lando versus Benicio Del Toro's character.

Yoda versus TLJ Luke.

Bespin versus Canto Blight
   
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Voss wrote:

Per the OT, he's an evil wizard that died rather conclusively. Fell multiple stories, exploded, and then the space station he was in exploded even more. So he fell to his death and exploded, twice. That isn't 'you should've checked the body territory,' that's we watched him die, get atomized, and then pieces of the place he died were scattered across local muppet space. He was even more dead than a Norwegian Blue.


Can you do that? Can you explode twice?

 
   
Made in ca
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 Compel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

TESB though... wasn't CYNICAL. Dark yes, cynical no.


Exactly. - Compare and contrast Lando versus Benicio Del Toro's character.

Yoda versus TLJ Luke.

Bespin versus Canto Blight


Most importantly, you see the resistance in TLJ put out a call for help.. no one answers. ROS contrasted that VERY nicely.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:
 Compel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

TESB though... wasn't CYNICAL. Dark yes, cynical no.


Exactly. - Compare and contrast Lando versus Benicio Del Toro's character.

Yoda versus TLJ Luke.

Bespin versus Canto Blight


Most importantly, you see the resistance in TLJ put out a call for help.. no one answers. ROS contrasted that VERY nicely.


I guess this is the difference for me. The call for help failing is fine... in the middle chapter. Everyone coming for help is also fine in the finale. The problem is just that ROS didn't spend any time building up the idea of a symbol for everyone to rally around to make that piece really land so it comes off as a little pandering. On the flip side, I didn't find Luke chiding Rey for tossing the saber nearly as pandering because we'd already seen Luke break through his cynicism in TLJ. The character that catches it from the fire is the one that left Kylo rolling in salt.

That sort of explains my feelings on ROS as a whole. It's not that I dislike any of it; I just wish it had earned its big moments more. It has that RotS "this happens because it needs to happen" feel. I am genuinely curious about the 40 minutes or so that are reportedly cut. They could legitimately make all the difference, though they wouldn't help with my biggest gripe with both ROS and TLJ, in that they're entirely too long.
   
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 AduroT wrote:
Voss wrote:

Per the OT, he's an evil wizard that died rather conclusively. Fell multiple stories, exploded, and then the space station he was in exploded even more. So he fell to his death and exploded, twice. That isn't 'you should've checked the body territory,' that's we watched him die, get atomized, and then pieces of the place he died were scattered across local muppet space. He was even more dead than a Norwegian Blue.


Can you do that? Can you explode twice?


Given that sig, I am unsurprised you got that reference.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

 LunarSol wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Compel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

TESB though... wasn't CYNICAL. Dark yes, cynical no.


Exactly. - Compare and contrast Lando versus Benicio Del Toro's character.

Yoda versus TLJ Luke.

Bespin versus Canto Blight


Most importantly, you see the resistance in TLJ put out a call for help.. no one answers. ROS contrasted that VERY nicely.


I guess this is the difference for me. The call for help failing is fine... in the middle chapter. Everyone coming for help is also fine in the finale. The problem is just that ROS didn't spend any time building up the idea of a symbol for everyone to rally around to make that piece really land so it comes off as a little pandering. On the flip side, I didn't find Luke chiding Rey for tossing the saber nearly as pandering because we'd already seen Luke break through his cynicism in TLJ. The character that catches it from the fire is the one that left Kylo rolling in salt.

That sort of explains my feelings on ROS as a whole. It's not that I dislike any of it; I just wish it had earned its big moments more.


Agree on these points.

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I thought something was odd about Episode 9 - no bloomin "Art of" book!

March 2020? Good grief!

In other news, Rise of Skywalker is about to take a billion at the box office and yet its being treated as a "disappointment". Sigh. Yes, Disney, we get it - you are doing this for the money, and for two hours entertainment we will oblige you. But we are not funding your scheme to build a fully armed and operational battle station to hide behind the moon. Last time that happened we had send Sir Roger Moore to sort things out...

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SamusDrake wrote:
I thought something was odd about Episode 9 - no bloomin "Art of" book!

March 2020? Good grief!

In other news, Rise of Skywalker is about to take a billion at the box office and yet its being treated as a "disappointment". Sigh. Yes, Disney, we get it - you are doing this for the money, and for two hours entertainment we will oblige you.


It is. It's also profitable already without crossing that metric. As alluded to in your post, corporate/investor expectations typically involve minimal levels of profitability. With a company the size of Disney, they want all the money and not just some of it.

   
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Truth is, due to expansion of movie markets and inflation, billion dollar line is no longer that magical. Disney alone has SIX other movies from 2019 which grossed over billion dollars. Whereas TROS is hardly box office flop, given the notability and prestige of Star Wars brand, numbers are on bit of a disappointing side. It's actually behind Rogue One in inflation adjusted gross.

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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 LunarSol wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Compel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

TESB though... wasn't CYNICAL. Dark yes, cynical no.


Exactly. - Compare and contrast Lando versus Benicio Del Toro's character.

Yoda versus TLJ Luke.

Bespin versus Canto Blight


Most importantly, you see the resistance in TLJ put out a call for help.. no one answers. ROS contrasted that VERY nicely.


I guess this is the difference for me. The call for help failing is fine... in the middle chapter. Everyone coming for help is also fine in the finale. The problem is just that ROS didn't spend any time building up the idea of a symbol for everyone to rally around to make that piece really land so it comes off as a little pandering. On the flip side, I didn't find Luke chiding Rey for tossing the saber nearly as pandering because we'd already seen Luke break through his cynicism in TLJ. The character that catches it from the fire is the one that left Kylo rolling in salt.

That sort of explains my feelings on ROS as a whole. It's not that I dislike any of it; I just wish it had earned its big moments more. It has that RotS "this happens because it needs to happen" feel. I am genuinely curious about the 40 minutes or so that are reportedly cut. They could legitimately make all the difference, though they wouldn't help with my biggest gripe with both ROS and TLJ, in that they're entirely too long.


true but a lot of the issues with ROS can be traced back to Rian Johnson spent an entire movie destroying when he should ahve spent a movie building.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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I don't think Johnson destroyed all that much, if anything. He can be rightly blamed for not setting up anything for the next movie, but it's pretty much the situation he inherited from the first.

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Backfire wrote:
I don't think Johnson destroyed all that much, if anything. He can be rightly blamed for not setting up anything for the next movie, but it's pretty much the situation he inherited from the first.


disagree TFA set things up fine. we where introduced to Rey, Finn and Poe, we where told what Han and Leia ahd been up to. we where introduced to the first order. Kylo Ren and Snoke.
we where given, to a degree the motivation of the characters (Rey was looking for a family, Finn wanted freedom from the first order and friendship, Poe was pretty much "vive le resistance") this was all that was reaaally needed.

in the second act of the trilogy we needed to set the characters up a bit more as to where they where going, what their destinies where etc. we should have been given some indication as to what Snoke WANTED. etc. Johnson didn't really set up anything, hence my comment about him not building. by destroying I mean he attempted to subvert expectations and tear things down in, a to be blunt, unsastifying way. he killed off Snoke, and phasma (who really should have been kept around and used better, she should have been a foil for Finn, instead she was made the "sequal trilogy boba fett")

I think, looking at episode 9 and where it was going, If I could go back in time and do TLJ myself, I'd have made the entire second movie about the search for Exogol. Luke and Rey would slowly travel the galaxy unraveling the trail of Bread crumbs. at the very end, yeah Snoke would die (likely at Luke's hands) and Palpatine would be revealed as the "big bad"

then ROS woulda worked a biit differant. I woulda proably had Luke be insturmental in defeating Palpatine (perhaps alongside Rey and Ben) and have LUKE die in the final clash with Palpatine. leaving Rey and Ben to rebuild the jedi

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Shadeglass Maze

 warboss wrote:
Supposedly a synopsis of the original version of Ep IX by Colin Trevorrow before he was let go for creative differences. It's in progress right now so I don't know how long the stream will end up being.




As always, add salt as needed. This youtuber, unlike most, has worked in Hollywood as a director and editor for decades in case that matters for veracity.

Was just coming to post this! Here's an article describing it:

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a30514233/star-wars-9-original-script-colin-trevorrow-leak/

Figured some of you might find this cathartic, like the article mentions . Although I liked the movie as-is, this does sound good - especially the title, "Duel of Fates"!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 13:39:52


 
   
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Backfire wrote:
I don't think Johnson destroyed all that much, if anything. He can be rightly blamed for not setting up anything for the next movie, but it's pretty much the situation he inherited from the first.


He set up plenty. He actually gave us a real setting to play in for a change, with the First Order's conquest of the galaxy in full swing as the surviving members of the resistance try to bring together those who would still fight. It gave us a villain alone in his victory, literally plagued by the specter of his failure that inspires those who still stand against him. More than anything, he gave us a chance to tell a new story in the world, which is sadly an opportunity completely squandered. If there's anything I'm CRUSHINGLY disappointed in with ROS, its not getting to see Force Ghost Luke laugh at Kylo for his failings all movie. That's like the only thing I really wanted. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RiTides wrote:

Was just coming to post this! Here's an article describing it:

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a30514233/star-wars-9-original-script-colin-trevorrow-leak/

Figured some of you might find this cathartic, like the article mentions . Although I liked the movie as-is, this does sound good - especially the title, "Duel of Fates"!



I just read this after my last post.

I think the script starts a lot stronger than a lot of what we got. It definitely follows a lot smoother and builds on the setting. Also gives me the one thing in the world I wanted from the film, so there's that. It's hard to tell if it would have stuck the landing or not. It definitely isn't finished and switches from a real script to a draft. I think there's some good ideas there, but its all in the execution. Some of the bits toward the end need to be rethought and don't really track, but the overall arc works well. More the movie I wanted to see after TLJ though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:44:09


 
   
Made in ca
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As written the script can't have been done without a CGI Carrie Fisher, I wonder how much that factored into the 'creative differences' that got the project dropped into JJ's lap.

   
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 Captain Joystick wrote:
As written the script can't have been done without a CGI Carrie Fisher, I wonder how much that factored into the 'creative differences' that got the project dropped into JJ's lap.


The most obvious example is the lightsaber. I had initially chalked it up to Abrams obsession with "Luke's" saber, but after seeing ROS, I'm wondering how much of it has to do with her holding it in the unused footage of Leia. It's still more than a little maddening that that point is completely tossed aside and then we get the new saber we want for a second at an ending that doesn't make any sense at all (has Leia ever actually been to Tatooine?).

The loss of Carrie Fisher certainly had a huge impact on the film. She's pretty central to it as is; one can only imagine how much screen time she was supposed to have.
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

Seems like JJ was absolutely petrified of/perplexed by writing for Rey and Kylo with all the agency they were granted at the end of TLJ. We witness the two principals emphatically seizing control of their destinies, only to have it revealed that more-or-less their every move was manipulated and preordained by the big bad from the other trilogy. Um...okay.

I feel like there's some meta commentary to be had there too.

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Backfire wrote:
I don't think Johnson destroyed all that much, if anything. He can be rightly blamed for not setting up anything for the next movie, but it's pretty much the situation he inherited from the first.


Well, he pretty much destroyed continuity in space battles over all the films with his silly hyperspace ram, for reasons already explained upthread.

He CERTAINLY destroyed the Resistance in the chase of fools, and the only reason anyone got away was because the First Order were even BIGGER fools... also for reasons explained upthread.

EDIT: And with it, he destroyed the credibility of either side as a genuine threat. Fools are to be laughed at, not feared or respected.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 17:01:32


CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
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Devon, UK

(has Leia ever actually been to Tatooine?).


Not to my knowledge, but a second sequence of Rey in a space suit burying her sabre on an asteroid would probably been lost on a lot of people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 17:54:38


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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 gorgon wrote:
Seems like JJ was absolutely petrified of/perplexed by writing for Rey and Kylo with all the agency they were granted at the end of TLJ. We witness the two principals emphatically seizing control of their destinies, only to have it revealed that more-or-less their every move was manipulated and preordained by the big bad from the other trilogy. Um...okay.

I feel like there's some meta commentary to be had there too.

That seems a stretch. I saw two kids arrive back where they began, with no clue how to move on, and no plot elements left to take them anywhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 18:12:22


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Seems like JJ was absolutely petrified of/perplexed by writing for Rey and Kylo with all the agency they were granted at the end of TLJ. We witness the two principals emphatically seizing control of their destinies, only to have it revealed that more-or-less their every move was manipulated and preordained by the big bad from the other trilogy. Um...okay.

I feel like there's some meta commentary to be had there too.

That seems a stretch. I saw two kids arrive back where they began, with no clue how to move on, and no plot elements left to take them anywhere.


Like... what? Some random cloaked bad guy mumbling dark side nonsense?

You don't need sequel bait to write a sequel. All you need is a story. A New Hope didn't need to end with "we'll have to find a new base for when the Empire retaliates" to use that as the basis of its story. The bits of RotJ that wrap up the end of Empire in the first act are almost entirely disconnected from the rest of the film. TLJ left more story writing tools in the hands of the writers than we've seen since the Thrawn trilogy. Ep 9 had plenty to work with.
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

I don't see how anything interesting could be done with a son of heroes who turned his back on his family and their ideals because of the pressure created by his name and gifts (but still feels conflicted by that decision), who killed his own father to try to quell his nagging doubts (but is tortured by that action), and who grew to idolize his evil grandfather for his perceived strength but ultimately decides to seize full control of his destiny as his grandfather never did, thereby surpassing him (but leaving him even lonelier and emptier?).

This character is also played by the best actor you have. Yeah, nothing to mine there...

Edit: This is just good human story stuff. Good gangster stories are built out of the kind of character I just outlined there. The human elements are what made TESB so good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 19:10:05


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Luton, UK

Two years on from TLJ and people are still defending a film they've re-edited in their heads... sad to see.

“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.” 
   
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 gorgon wrote:
I don't see how anything interesting could be done with a son of heroes who turned his back on his family and their ideals because of the pressure created by his name and gifts (but still feels conflicted by that decision), who killed his own father to try to quell his nagging doubts (but is tortured by that action), and who grew to idolize his evil grandfather for his perceived strength but ultimately decides to seize full control of his destiny as his grandfather never did, thereby surpassing him (but leaving him even lonelier and emptier?).

This character is also played by the best actor you have. Yeah, nothing to mine there...

Edit: This is just good human story stuff. Good gangster stories are built out of the kind of character I just outlined there. The human elements are what made TESB so good.


And Ghost Luke makes all of this sooooooo much better


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Riquende wrote:
Two years on from TLJ and people are still defending a film they've re-edited in their heads... sad to see.


I only edit it in my head because its too long. It's got enough of my favorite scenes in the franchise to rewatch, but I sure do with it was closer to the runtime of the originals.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 19:36:09


 
   
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 Azreal13 wrote:
(has Leia ever actually been to Tatooine?).

Not to my knowledge,


...

Not sure if serous...

   
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Oh yeah, duh.

Clearly a place she's fond of.
   
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Devon, UK

 Captain Joystick wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
(has Leia ever actually been to Tatooine?).

Not to my knowledge,


...

Not sure if serous...


No, was completely serious, just didn't think of that as it wasn't an official visit so to speak.

Either way, doesn't alter the fact that if Rey were to bury Leia's sabre on the planet she'd grown up on like she does with Luke's then she'd need to go extra vehicular in some space rubble.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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 LunarSol wrote:
TLJ left more story writing tools in the hands of the writers than we've seen since the Thrawn trilogy. Ep 9 had plenty to work with.


And ground zero of 9/11 left nothing but opportunity for construction!

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 LunarSol wrote:
Voss wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Seems like JJ was absolutely petrified of/perplexed by writing for Rey and Kylo with all the agency they were granted at the end of TLJ. We witness the two principals emphatically seizing control of their destinies, only to have it revealed that more-or-less their every move was manipulated and preordained by the big bad from the other trilogy. Um...okay.

I feel like there's some meta commentary to be had there too.

That seems a stretch. I saw two kids arrive back where they began, with no clue how to move on, and no plot elements left to take them anywhere.


Like... what? Some random cloaked bad guy mumbling dark side nonsense?

You don't need sequel bait to write a sequel. All you need is a story. .

Right. The part that was missing. The loosely connected series of vignettes in TLJ are reasonably resolved by the ship of survivors wandering off to become smugglers on Hutta while Kylo crowns himself king of the galaxy the First Order conquered off-screen. (which gets mentioned offhandedly like its no big deal)

Sure, there was a third film contracted with the same actors, so they needed to go a different way, but there weren't any story elements worth pursuing. They were alone in a hostile universe against a force with apparently infinite resources. No one wanted to help, and everyone was somehow morally the same as the First Order anyway, so it didn't matter.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 23:06:33


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Watching RoS a second viewing... ( the first time off too much cognac)

Wow, Palpatine is one ignorant SOB. How many times that guy gonna be betrayed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its definitely better on second viewing. The foil between evil Skywalker and good palpatine was weak... but at least they tried to make it emotional if not convoluted and "forced".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also,what a case of "supervillain revealing their master stroke...." if Palpatine would have just been a menacing spooky marionette, Rey would have cut him down all as planned. Explaining how evil it is ruined the whole plan.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/16 04:41:01


 
   
 
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