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I will take the initiative to continue a thread that Drake Marcus closed.
www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/8/postid/109337/view/topic/Default.aspx

The reason why I am continuing this thread? Because I believe Drake Marcus closed the thread for untrue reasons. The reasons sited as "personal attacks". What chuckyhol said had nothing to do being against dakka forum rules and as a MOD he should know that. Being polite goes only so far. When money is at stake, the gloves slide off more freely. Especially when a business is using what is essentially a "show and tell" forum to advertise their work. This is breaking rule #3 of forum posting rules in itself.

BTP was taking care of its business defending itself quite well before intervention. As a business, it has to take criticism, and the harsher stuff should be reserved for pm's. And if it was BTP's pleas for thread closure, then they shouldnt display their models in a forum where we critique such things. Stick to banner ads. Just because BTP pays for advertsining space does not entitle them to any better treatment. I have found no cause for censorship in the previous thread.

Now that I am finished giving my reasons for starting a new thread based on a previous subject, back to the subject at hand.

I have seen some fabulous minis come out of BTP. Some seriously good jobs. But those that I am giving accolades to arent the ones who use super secret dip/glaze/wash/ whatever. I too feel the price is somewhat high in comparison with alot of the competition I have seen who can do a better job. One must keep in mind that BTP is a company however. Utilizing a fulltime staff. This isnt cheap. I ran for a short time a painting business in corpus christi texas called "5th Paradox studio" and I can tell you it is a nightmare keeping all things in line while trying to charge the most reasonable rate possible. But fair pricing is subjective. I believe BTP is still finding that delicate, ever changing balance.

I was in the market recently for a painting service and browsed through BTP examples. Some of what I saw was impressive, and some others I was not particularly impressed with. The reason why I did not choose to patronize their services was because I was afraid that their quality is not consistent. I dont want to be one of the orders who doesnt get what I feel to be worth the money I paid.

I feel the glazing isnt worth the money requested personally, but it does indeed look good. It could be improved, but then again, it isnt my commision at stake so I dont really care too deeply.

this really doesn't belong here, start this crap somewhere else.. I don't like how BTP paints more than anyone else out there, but they have a right to run thier business how they see fit and if you don't like them, don't buy from them. But this is a modelling forum, and personal posts need to go elsewhere

So if I posted a bunch of miniatures for sale and advertised my services in a modeling forum put on airs that I am more intelligent because I call people Rubenesque instead of Fat you have no right to get angry? Personally I could care less what that gentleman does and I hope he does well. However do not come on a public forum and belittle our intelligence by saying a duck is a whale then calling us stupid for not going along with his word games.

Posted By 2.0 on 10/08/2006 11:49 AM
this really doesn't belong here, start this crap somewhere else.. I don't like how BTP paints more than anyone else out there, but they have a right to run thier business how they see fit and if you don't like them, don't buy from them. But this is a modelling forum, and personal posts need to go elsewhere

I'm sorry, but Hellfury's comments weren't 'crap'. They were an objective and balanced response to both the previous thread (now closed) and the miniatures in question, as well as said painters' business practices. All of those are fair subject for polite conversation, especially when it comes to a business; whether that business is a restaurant or sells computers or paints figures. It's in the modelling forum because that's the subject: the quality of the figures for the price. I suppose it could have gone in 'swap shop' or 'discussions' or even '40k YMDC' if we were feeling dadaesque, but Modelling works.

But you're right; if we don't like what we see, we shouldn't buy the product. And if you don't want to talk about ithis subject, don't read or contribute to this thread.

Telling us that "if you can't tell the difference then I can't help you." is hardly a way to endear yourself to potential customers. That basically means, you're too stupid to know etc...

Anyway, I offered to put up or shut up at the St. Louis Mills GW, but I was declined because "my mind was already made up."

I guess that means that my further promotion of the company through word of mouth ends right here, because I don't have anything positive to say about Blue Table at all. As referenced here, they definetely don't show any respect to the customer at all. Thats hardly a way to run a business I would think, but to each their own.

This thread is unneccesary.

Drake_ Marcus shut the old one for a reason.

BTP contributes $120 a year to the site, so if nothing negative is able to be said about it in order to get the dakkadakka we all know and love, so be it.

Chuck

People are free to make comments about services they've received. I don't care if the service is an advertiser here or not.

However:

1) This is really he-said she-said right now. "You dip" "No we don't" "Yes you do".

2) I have dipped models myself before, I don't think BTP dips.

3) So far, all those attacking BTP have been the same voices, and suprisingly, they are not actual BTP customers. I'd much rather hear from folks who've had work done. What did you think?

I"m moving this thread to Discussions, as it's nothing to do with modeling.

Hey,



> People are free to make comments about services they've received.

I don't care if the service is an advertiser here or not.



I didn't read the other thread, but it sounds like a doozie.


I agree that product reviews should be based on firsthand appraisal. It's just that -



> if nothing negative is able to be said...in order to get the dakkadakka we all know and love, so be it



Reads like 'censorship is the price we all pay for seeing banner ads on Dakka'.



Say it ain't so, Russ.



Playa

My question is why is BTP's PR guy in St. Louis, and their studio is in Spanish Fork, Ut?

Spanish Fork? Thats not too far away from where I live in Magna. Somebody didn't like their figs eh? I'll check the other thread.

As far as army painters are concerned:

Fastest turn around, Blue Table Painting.
Average $5-$6 per mini.

Best quality, Dragon Painting Service
http://www.dragonpaintingservice.com
Average $6 per mini. Their Ebay stuff is wild.

Best prices, paintedfigs.com (ahem, ahem)
http://www.paintedfigs.com
Average $3 per mini.

Best historicals, Fernando Enterprises
www.miniaturelovers.com
Prices vary. Oldest and largest miniature painting service in the world (35 painters, plus support staff)

Best Spin-the-Wheel-o-Fate
www.bartertown.com
You can get "convertions!"

Highest satisfaction.
You.
Priceless.

Don't get hung up on the weaknesses, look at the strengths and decide accordingly.

Posted By Playa on 10/08/2006 9:24 PM


Reads like 'censorship is the price we all pay for seeing banner ads on Dakka'.



Say it ain't so, Russ.



Playa

Um, he did.

Posted By pnweerar on 10/08/2006 11:21 PM



Highest satisfaction.
You.
Priceless.

I bet you say that to all the altar boys.

The entire argument mystifies me. But the thread lock mystifies me even
more. I'm one of those who could care less if Blue Table took your miniatures
to the "painting" room and "highlighted" the figs with white streaks. They're
your miniatures, pay what you want.

But if people want to discuss method then go ahead and do so. They have
the blue table phone number on a post somewhere if you want to talk to
them in person about it. The thread wasn't getting ugly (or at least not yet)
and mods/admins could always edit posts so that people sound stupider
than they already are (we do this all the time in the Wasteland. I like to think
of it as "translation" . So Hellfury can bring it up for discussion if he likes.

If you want the thread to die, ignore it or alert Russ. Posting in a thread
saying it doesn't exist just bumps it up as the newest thread. Yay! You
just made the conversation more visible!

I'm a college student who does commision painting as a pretty much full-time job. I started in the business end of painting my freshman year of high school. After being on the other side of the hobby for so long I find any discussion of a "studio" or other similar painting service extremely interesting. I think the methods, business practices, and end results of any painting service should be able to be freely discussed. I would love to know the businesss model and actual numbers are for such a studio that employs a full-times staff. However I have done the dip and I know exactly what it looks like...

I'm personally not convinced that those aren't dipped figures. If not litterally dipped, then painted on. Dipping, after all, is but a glazing technique stripped to the minimum of steps. The pics of the figures bear this out as the glazes are all uniform in color regardless what the base coat is.

Mind you, I don't think there is anything wrong with "dipping", it produces good tabletop results with a minimum of effort. What I think what rubs people wrong is calling it some super-secret "glazing" technique when said technique is apparent. Truth in advertising and all that.

Nyarly, have you seen any of the figures in person? Have you been a customer? It's a fair comment to say "from the photos, their glazing technique looks a lot like dipping" if that's your opinion, but it's also fair for us to give a bit more credence to the opinions of people who've seen them personally. If it doesn't come across in the photos taken so far, perhaps they'll take some better photos, which is a win for all of us.

But that's just it, nobody who has seen them personally (and isn't a BTP employee/spokesperson) has said anything. I also find suspicious that when an offer was withdrawn for someone independant of BTP to look at the figs. Why hide the work? I would like to see better (larger) photos, and I'd definitely like to hear from someone that has seen the figures and is independant of BTP.

Mind you, I'm not saying their stuff is bad. They are solid tabletop quality figures. They're not going to win any painting contests, but they're definitely not going to blind anyone with a jarringly bad paintjob either. If I had to make an educated guess, they're not using a traditional "dipping" formula (ie: Minwax Polyshades or similar), but are batch mixing magic wash cut with Tamiya flat base and one or two coating figs with it by brush. Or it could even be Minwax (they have 60 colors available now) with a couple matte coats on top.

Regardless, even if they are dipped, all that really matters is if the customer is satisfied with the product they paid for. If their customers are happy, then it's all a wash.

For those that skimmed over about the "in person" thing.

Magical Memories offered to show me some of the figures in person, but then later retracted because he thought my views too closed minded.

If the figures truly ARE wonderful, don't you think they would want to make me PUT up or shut up? Then I could be singing their praises for real. Right?

As nyarly said, highly suspect.

From the Blue Table Website:

Blue Table's technique involves traditional methods as well as a method called "glazing". Glazes are made from durable, model-friendly materials that are applied in multiple layers give a smooth, shaded effect. This is NOT the same as "dipping" (which uses floor wax over the whole model). Glazes rely on high quality paint and inks to apply color. Your models will be less likely to wear or chip.

I was under the impression that dipping was done with wood stain. Are they confusing this with Future floor wax? Future IS used with inks to make glazes. Perhaps changing the definition of what dipping is makes them feel better. I think it's funny that they feel they need to make that statement in the first place. Could these "durable, model friendly materials" be a high-tech space-age formula of stain and polyurethane made by the good people at min wax?

I've seen them... I was part of the crew from Atlanta that was at Adepticon last year.   Most of the armies (not all) from Team FN Kai Gun and No FN KAi Gun were BTP products.  Our centerpiece was a BTP product.

I personally own zero BTP painted armies.  I do own a Paintedfigs.com army (and highly recommend them, though that's a seperate topic).  I've played with and against BTP paint jobs a lot.  Here's my opinion after handling numerous figures of theirs...

It looks a little like dipping (Shocker!) but it isn't.  Essentially they glaze the figures down to handle highlighting and give them a fast quick paint job.   I've seen their results on Dark Eldar, NIght Lords, Nurgle, Eldar, Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, some Imperial Guard, and probably some other stuff I can't remember.

Sometimes, it looks really really good.  Sometimes... it's kind of meh.  It really comes down to personal preference.  Overall, I've never seen a BTP army I didn't like.  Not every one is going to win a Golden Demon (obviously), but they'll all do well on an appearance scoring at an RTT type event.  Most of the time your opponents will look across the table and say "Man, nice looking army".  I like their style, but choose not to pay their prices.  That's a personal decision.

The painting purists will snarl their noses if they look closely at a figure.  The style is what it is... if you want a good looking army, painted FAST (Blue Table really does deliver quickly), and you don't expect Golden Demon quality, then they're a great company.  If you want Golden Demon... look elsewhere...

Again... you'll either love or hate it. 

Thanks,

Brad Wood
Table One Gaming
Atlanta, GA

A few thoughts:

It's a pet peeve when anybody accuses a private entity of censorship.  Dakka is a private interest, and can regulate the business whithin in as it sees fit.  You can accuse them of stifiling free expression, or even hiding the truth, but censorship is the role of the state, not an enterprise.

Keep in mind, that the Dakka rules exhort us to "to be polite"  This is vague, of course, and seems to be sporadically enforced.  While it may appear, to the casual observer, unusual that the right to lock threads be used when the thread is critical of a sponsor; it is still the right of the owner and his agents to enforce their rules.

Finally, this is a debate on nothing.  BTP is going to stand by their claim of glazing, and no amount of evidence will sway the poster who claims it's dipped.  While normally such debates are fine, they are in effect becoming libelous, and since BTP is a sponsor, I think it's Dakka's duty to stand up for their sponsors.

Obviously, there were overreactions on both sides.  But let's not make this out to be the actions of Big Brother when Dakka is merely doing what any business should do.

Your argument is bunk polonius.

Dakka is no longer a business, just a message board. Besides if I was a Dakka Sponsor, and my business was entitled "BABY KILLERS ARE US" and someone said baby killing was wrong, you would be singing a different tune about Dakka defending me.

There is no debate. We claim the pictures look like crap. (Which is our right) They claim they are not. I have been invited to see the stuff in person, but then declined. Apparently they don't really care about expanding their business all that badly.

Posted By whitedragon on 10/11/2006 5:57 PM

Dakka is no longer a business, just a message board.

I thought that Dakka was a firm of some sort, my apologies if I was wrong. Dakka is still private, in the sense that it's owned by one or more individuals, not the state. Since the owner sells advertising as well as deluxe memberships, it seems reasonable to classify it as some sort of enterprise.

As for your argument that I wouldn't support Dakka defending their sponsors if they were "baby killers are us," it's a bit spurious. Assuming the sponsors were actually engaged in the kililng of infants, that would be illegal. If Dakka protected you, I'd be a little concered, especially since I enjoy this site and I doubt it'll be maintained from prison. I think you raise an interesting point, however, in that there are protests against enterprises that are protected speech. Since it's possible to debate Dakka on many other web forums, I think it unlikely that Dakka's squashing of debate on baby killing would be wrong.

My point on censorship is mostly a personal annoyance, but there is a common and persistant misconception, especially in the US, about what their "right" to speech entails. The right to speech may not be abridged by the laws of the US or any of it's states, but a property owner has the right to limit the speech of those on their property. You have every right to claim that the paint job is poor. Dakka simply has the competing, and stronger, right to limit or ban such speech on their property. Whether they should or not is a matter of ethics, not of "rights."

Your admission that there is no debate is a correct one, simply because there are few facts and plenty of opinion. I agree that the photo appears to be dipped, but since I'm not an expert on dipping or glazing I can't readily contribute. And I think that is why the thread was locked, as you pointed out.

As for Blue Table expanding their business, I think you've stumbled on the actual issue here. If Blue Table is gaining their new business though false advertising, by claiming to use a technique that they do not, then there is a legitmate concern. Like all accusations, this one requires some proof, mostly in the form of dissatisfied costumers. I think that BTP understands their market really well: gamers who want a well painted army quickly and professionally. Given that such an accusation is effectively impossible to prove outside of the courts, I think Dakka was within it's rights to simply end discussion, and stop the possible defamation of one of its sponsors.

But then with a good reason.
"These are personal attacks!" BAM! Closed.
Leave people like: " Hey wait a sec that weren't..."
"Yes they were! Nothing to see here please go on posting."

To say this "You dip!", "No we don't!", "Yes you do!", "No!" never comes to an end is a much better explanation to close that thread.

For the rest I'm with Hellfury.

In response to Russ:

1. What about baby feasting? Advertising, here we come...

2. I think whitedragon secretly lusts for Magickal Memories. He's now both president and
grand poobah of the Maul Ed fan club as well as Blue Table's Number One Fan. Too bad
we all know what happened to Paul Sheldon and his number one fan.

3. I have no third point.

Ah Malfred, You get a hard core point.

Just cause.

HAHAHA derflaM, you have finally ousted me! And soon I will be living near baltimore, even closer to my Fan Club Celebrity!

As for Magickal Mem, I really wanted to see the figs in person, but until that happens, I remain unconvinced.

And for the record, we have had much more venomous debates on YMDC.

ok what the hell is dipping and glazing? i dont know what that is someone pls explain. Stop cussing small independent painters and go burn some GW stores, they are the extortionists.