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Just thought I'd mention one of my favorite GW game Epic, since we're starting over here on Dakka. I love this game, its probably the best rules system GW has come up with and really gives you the feel of fielding a good sized army which I feel 40k is mostly lacking. I got into epic back in the days of Space Marine and Titan Legions and except for not liking the Epic 40K incanation of the game I've been playing it every since.

 If it werent for the recent downturn in support from GW for the specialist games and therefore epic this newest edition would probably be making its way back to being the third most popular gaming system GW has, but thats just my opinion, it really is that good.

 I personally have about half the armies including Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids and Eldar, and I love the fact that unlike 40K Marines dont own this game, they are not the focus and dont recieve 80% of the atention, special rules and models etc., its pretty close to an even playing field between the different armies with Marines maybe comin in a little underpowered. Yeah!

Anyway just thought I'd post and see how many others on Dakka are either Epic Fans or interested in checking it out, the rules can be freely downloaded off the Specialist Games website under the Living Rule Book.

I agree: E:A is great! It's a shame SG support has all but disappeared, but one consolation is the Forgeworld do make superb little minis for the game, which are sometimes cheaper than the GW ones (usually the vehicles).

I've gotta disagree, Red_Shirt_Hero (Man United Fan?).

I think SG have been great with Epic. For a start, they actually worked Epic over (but I did love Epic 40K - am I the only person in the world?) They recently released Eldar, put a new spin on an army (those new IG- proper siege in the 41st Millenium? Cool!) which no game except 40k really does, and made sure that as much stuff as possible remained available, which isn't easy considering Epic armies have to be so big. Also, I believe that, in volumes of minis, Epic has had the most stuff released by SG.

No, definately not a Man United fan! Nor a GW shop staff fan - just standing up for the unnamed extras in Star Trek!

I think you've got me wrong, I love what SG have done with the game so far, including Swordwind. It's just I was looking forward to many more suppliments like it, and it's never going to happen, even if what remains of the Fanatic teams's intentions are good, they simply don't have the resources anymore. When the Chaos list comes out, fro example, there won't be new models, just the old SM/TL-era range, alongside stuff that designed for Epic 40K (albeit including previously unreleased models).

You really like it that much?  Hmmm.

I have been playing the Epic series since it opened with Adeptus Titanicus years ago.  I think the latest installment is ok if played with considerable restraint.  Do you realize the marines could take an entire army of Terminators?  While the other forces are incredibly restricted.  The rules are derrivatives of the last release of EPIC40K which wasn't even a shadow of the depth available with Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus.

I wonder how you are playing.  The biggest problem with the game is that (at least in the standard mission setting with the objectives) Marines are unbeatable. My friends and I played several permutations, it's a combined problem with the army list construction, the innitiative system and the deepstriking rules, which are poorly balanced, there are a lot of points.

We played a marine game that was actually over in one phase of one turn.  The marines went first, 2 terminator detachments with a commander wiped out the IG Supreme Commander and his entire company in HtH, claiming his objective, the marines then maintained the innitiative and a 2nd commander arrived in a thunderhawk gunship assaulting from space, destroyed 2 other IG formations (Baneblades and Artillery CO) on the other side of the IG deployment zone.  IG failed a command check and moved a unit with a basic move.  SM bikes and rhinos took 2 objectives in the middle of the table with a triple move, and the game was over without the IG firing a shot in one turn.

There is no defence at all from teleporters and deep strikers. Triple A cant shoot at space drop units, only against planes.  It all comes in the first turn and picks something(s) to destroy.

Hand to hand is just ridiculous, the loosing side taking additional (no armor save) casualties after loosing the assault, for the diference in hits just compounds the already impossible  hand to hand fight for the non Marine armies.  Mech transports, when they get deep striked and assaulted, cost a player 6 kills each in HtH! 3 for the transport and 2 units in it, and another three from the difference in scores for the "route damage".  Almost as bad with artillery hits.  Big formations are worthless.

I was able to fight a better game with a Titan, but because they don't take any proportional damage, (EG a titan with 1/8 damage left  is just as effective in shooting, moving, and HtH as an undamaged one) they are completely broken. I used one to  kill an entire Ork army once.

Command rolls completely benefit marines, they have a 1+? They can't even fail?  Other armies tend to have a failure that kills them, especially because they have huge formations, oops, 1/4 of your army just forgot what it was doing and gets half an activation?

Marines take 2x as many blast markers to break, why? Their saves and command structures are all already better too.

Then there's the issue of formations, and army structure, IG and Orcs are stuck with these massive formations, when firing 10-30 units they cause 1 extra blast marker on 1 target. An equivalent marine unit would be 3 or more formations of 3 which will cause a blast marker for every detachment that fires, at least 3.  In a strait points fight, IG formations never beat marines because of this (and the 2x blast markers it takes to break marines), it's almost statistically immpossible.  Besides, 3 marine formations can be in 3 places at once, and shoot up to 3 targets if they need to, or shoot a little and see what happens, then shoot the remainder somewhere else if the target breaks, or worse yet, get free kills from blast markers of the broken target is still in range... While an IG unit has to be all together. In our games the marine armies all have 10-15 formations while the IG and orcs have maybe 4-6, I have seen whole games where the IG can barely get out of their deployment zone.  I've seen entire companies of leman russes destroyed from the front by half their points in Orc or marine bikes, buggies, copters or whatever, because they come at them in 3 units, and the 10 IG tanks can only pick one of the 3 to target and then next turn the other one assaults...

I think its actually a pretty bad game, and is completely based around marines.  We played 18 games with IG vs marines and I have at least one of every formation in the game for both armies painted, I even switched sides, and I played with 3 different people and the Marines NEVER LOST, our group kind of quit after that.  The few Marine Civil wars we played never quite felt right.  We did however have some great games when the Orks played the IG, which went both ways, mostly because their mechanics and army struture works generally the same.  We also experimented with the Chaos rules which played much better. 

We didn't have enough motiviation left after all that to paint any Eldar, but I have all that stuff as well...

Good luck if you try it, Orks vs IG is admittedly pretty fun! The look of Epic stuff is just fantastic!

I think you're right in being disappointed with the release schedule, Red_Shirt_Hero. It's not the super-dooper-est (neither the super-camp-er-est). But in fairness to SG (as well as GW) they've managed two fairly-major supplements that cover several armies and background bits-and-bobs. This is in comparison to the Inquisitor articles & scenarios (which are really sorta rubbish) and the totally regurgitated BB stuff. Plus there's BFG, which is a great game, but severely limited, so it relies upon (virtually leaches off) background material from 40k stuff for scenario details.

And, of course, Epic is lucky to still be around. It was released before I started school, but it's still here, thanks to a 1998(7?) revival, and the input of the Fanatic folkies since.  It's a freaking lucky game, considering you do need £100 worth of stuff for a decent game, compared to £40 (in 40 minutes) for 40k.

Augustus- I agree. Anyone remember a WD article where JJ said he'd anticipated people using Imperial armies and not just SM forces in Epic? Then E:A was released, promoting them? (After a re-haul for an SM army that had support forces)

Augustus, as I said I'm a big fan of Epic, all except epic40K which I thought was a big step down for the game.

 As to the Marines ruling epic A, I couldnt disagree more, I have played aguanst marines in about 15  games and I have lost to them once! yep one time, I have faced them with the IG and Ork forces in the core book, the speed freaks list, the playtest versions of the Orkamedes Gargant Big Mob and the Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legions lists. Now as to some of your complaints, yes I agree a SM comander could take an all termie army if he wanted to however before you cry foul I'll point out that as unlikely a force as this is an IG force can consist of all leman russ companies or Shadow Sword superheavie tanks , also nowhere does it say that these armies are all derived from just one marine chapter, it could be several chapters on crusade working together to field all termies. Also the power of Titans is actually the achilies heel of the Marines, so far all other armies have at least one good anser for titans, but overall Marines struggle aguanst them or have to take their own titans to cope. The 1+ activation can be mitigated by putting a blast marker on the formation and or the increased diificulty imposed by trying to take a second action, anyway as to having a hard time suppressing Marines their formations are often costly and smallish so I often find them being killed off instead of being broken or suppressed.

 The termanators are powerfull but you only get 4 stands for what 200pts I think[ just looked it up 325pts], they might pick up blast markers teleporting in and even if they do teleport they still arent guarenteed the first action, I've seen them mowed by fire before they get to act before, they are also one trick ponies, mostly too slow to do more than teleport and then attack their prey then stand around if your opponet is spread out.

I'm not sure where you figure the marines are more flexable than the other two core book army lists they all three seem to be about on par in this area far as I can see. anyway sounds like you need to work harder at getting covering fire for friendly units or formations a little closer so you can get some covering fire from friendly units or take some ogryn to strengthen some of those IG formations that are being crushed or sentinels to scout and push out the zone of control/ guard a larger more valuble formations side, also the Marines have to spend the money for a space ship to drop from and only the smaller one  costing 200pts can come in on turn one, the barge I beleive is turn three and 350pts.

Lastly I guess I should say if epic A isnt your favorite then stick with the older version you best like, I still play 2nd edition and titan Legion games on ocasion, love the old titan battle groups. Just thought I'd bring up one of my favs.

 

I have to backup the sentiment that marines are far from unbeatable, in fact their small detachement sizes can be quiet a hinderence-

And im not sure about the how the guard player was set up in your 1 turn 1 phase game, but generally speaking at the start of the game it is a good idea to think ahead as to what the other side might be doing- using sentinels as a screen for example will usually discourage or even stop any first turn nastiness

 

I really think Epic A is the best of the GW rules systems right now- it has the option for alot of depth, and is clear and easy to follow- and the idea of having such huge armies really rocks

Definitely agree with Grimshawl here.

Space Marines are the weakest army to use in Epic A. They have small detachments and even with ATSKNF they can be easily overwhelmed.

I concur. Certain permutations of the marine list are strong, such all air-assault lists, but in general marines are one of th trickier armies to play in Epic:A

Augustus,

I don't know what to say. From what you describe, you weren't doing a GT scenario, but a "take and hold." You also might need to go back through the rules a bit. Units that take a March (triple move) can't contest or take objectives that turn.

You also haven't faced Eldar. They have an extremely overpowered list. I play Ultramarines and the one time I faced them I went down hard. It's a long story, but I got beat like a bad stepchild.

As to the Marines ruling epic A, I couldnt disagree more,

Well we are all entitled to our opinions, glad you had success against them, but I think your completely wrong, If I hadn't all but given up on the game I'd like to play you best of however many you want with marines and slay you all over the table.

I have played aguanst marines in about 15  games and I have lost to them once!

Well done, I find that completely unbelievable, but OK.

...SM comander could take an all termie army if he wanted to however before you cry foul I'll point out that as unlikely a force as this is an IG force can consist of all leman russ companies or Shadow Sword superheavie tanks...

Yes, they could, IG all tank armies actually are horrible, they can only fire in 4 places, yay.  Marines walk all over them.  The difference between the all terminator army and the all superheavy army is that  the terminators are great and the superheavies are awful.  The IG can take as many big formations as they want, all it does is limit their firepower choices.  The bigger they get, the worse off they are, they cant split their fire, so a trio (or more) of smaller assault detachments will alwyas beat them, as they cant shoot all the targets, 10 tanks fire and perhaps anhihilate a smaller detachment, but all the extra shots, after tank 5 or so go into the dirt, its an absurd system...

...Also the power of Titans is actually the achilies heel of the Marines, so far all other armies have at least one good anser for titans...

I already covered the titans, they are everyone's Achilles heal, so to say they are balance for marines is silly.  They dont take aportioned damage so a titan with 7/8 hits is just as effective as one with 0/8.  Its ridiculous.  Effective counters to titans? There aren't any.  They're great in HtH, the don't take aportioned damage, so they have great staying power, and they shoot a ton!

...The 1+ activation can be mitigated by putting a blast marker on the formation...

Unless they go first

...as to having a hard time suppressing Marines their formations are often costly and smallish so I often find them being killed off instead of being broken or suppressed...

Actually they almost never get surpressed, becuase it takes 2 chits a unit to suppress them and their detachment size is 3.  You see vs enemies with gigantic formations they only get 1 extra blast marker for firing, vs marines have all sorts of little units who get the same bonus.  With 2 chits per to break, at 1 kill they need 4 chits, but will only have gotten 2, one for under fire and 1 for breaking.  Anyone else unit would be broken at this point but the marines are not... Because the rule is broken.

3 predators detachments are about the equivalen of an IG tank Company but will always beat them, in an even exchange they cause 3 blast markers even if they dont get any kills and the Leman company scores only 1, on 1 detachment?  How do you not see that this always works in the marines favor?  It's ridiculous.  Also because they have a far superior command structure they almost always go first and get first shot...

The termanators are powerfull but you only get 4 stands for what 200pts I think[ just looked it up 325pts], they might pick up blast markers teleporting

So? On a 6? Usually they don't, and if they do, they get 1, it makes no difference in the ensuing assault

even if they do teleport they still arent guarenteed the first action, I've seen them mowed by fire before they get to act before, they are also one trick ponies, mostly too slow to do more than teleport and then attack their prey then stand around if your opponet is spread out

Um, yes, they are gauranteed 1st turn, with their command rules marines go first, teleporting happens before the turn sequence, it's unavoidable, they even have automatic activation, 1+, and a commander can order multiple units to assault.  2 units of teminators with a Comander is an unbetable 1st turn death to any formation in the game.  They can't even go on overwatch to get a chance to fire, it's turn 1 remember...  An opponent like IG CANT SPREAD OUT, they have huge companies, that must be at least 10 units (or superheavy) That ALL cost more than the terminators 325.  They always make their points in one assault?  Where does that get fun or fair.  I understand your point, its just wrong.

I'm not sure where you figure the marines are more flexable than the other two core book army lists they all three seem to be about on par in this area far as I can see.

WHAT? I am feeling like a broken record here.  What do you not understand, marines and IG both get 10 tanks, IG have to be in one place, Marines can be in 3.  Is that plain enough?  Marines take double chits to suppress, other armies don't, more flexible. ON PAR, absurd.

anyway sounds like you need to work harder at getting covering fire for friendly units or formations a little closer so you can get some covering fire from friendly units or take some ogryn to strengthen some of those IG formations that are being crushed

BIGGER FORMATIONS? Get closer together? Your insane, thats the heart of the problem, 10 tanks and attachments can shoot at 1 detachment.  The closer they are the more vulnerable they are to artilery and assault.  Covering fire? The Ig units are mostly 6s? Theyre worthless at that.  Besides if a player interpenetrates multiple formations then they can ALL be easily ssaulted ensuring the marine assault wipes them all out, thats crazy talk.

or sentinels to scout and push out the zone of control/ guard a larger more valuble formations side, also the Marines have to spend the money for a space ship to drop from and only the smaller one  costing 200pts can come in on turn one, the barge I beleive is turn three and 350pts.

Don't need a space ship to teleoprt, its a terminator ability, and the drop, basically costs those points and makes all the other units Turn 1 anywhere you want, Tripple A wont even defend you against them, even though they fly in. ? It's a bad rule set.

Lastly I guess I should say if epic A isnt your favorite then stick with the older version you best like, I still play 2nd edition and titan Legion games on ocasion, love the old titan battle groups. Just thought I'd bring up one of my favs.

Here is the only place we agree, the old epic 2nd ed was great, the new one, and the last one, are all horrible (when marines are on a side).  It's all been downhuill since they took the Order chits VPs and Objectives out of the game.  Suppression/Under firemarkers are a bad mechanic, the targetting rules are abysmal, the hand to hand is orders of magnitude more destructive than sustained artillery barrage and the titan rules are designed so poorly they warp the game.  It can only be played in its current version with house and gentlemens rules liberally added...  I can see why it is undersupported. 

Okay I could go back thru and anser most of your comments point for point but It would be tiring to do so, so lets just leave it at this you and I both like 2nd Edition Epic.

For the many others who replyed here, thanks I hope you are all enjoying Epic A as much as I am, good gamng, and I do hope by some hapenstance that I meet you all across the table some time, I dont travel much but anybody wanting a game and being in the Ohio, USA area might look me up at the Comic Shop Plus in Newark, even you Augustus.

Having also played Epic since AT, I'm still on the side of 'this is the best version yet'.

And I've played against a Deathwing army in 3k. It's not as bad as you seem to be implying.

You can launch two assaults turn one, drawing a max of 6 units into them. If you've got commanders in order to multi-charge, you've only got 7 units of Terminators in your entire army.

The secret to playing against ANY epic army is to support and stagger your units so that they support each other. Even with 12 Stands of Terminators getting into combat in the first turn, you're not guaranteed to win an assault if you've got enough units supporting each other. Outnumbering plays a HUGE factor in Epic as well, adding up to +2 to your combat score.

Believe me, an all Terminator sledgehammer is scary, but an all Leman Russ army is scarier.

No kidding... For 8 stands of termies you get 10 Leman Russ. The Russ have 75 cm range. Once the Termies drop in I'd either double or tripel move the russ away and shoot up the termies. After that termies will never catch up with the Leman Russ company.

You can even assault the individual termies if you want (just don't let them in BTB).

You've got Inspiring (free commissar) +1, OUtnumber +1, Double Outnumber +1, and any blast marker bonuses straight up with the unit. You'll generally outkill them as well. You've got the same save and more attacks.

I have been playing Epic since shortly before Epic Armageddon came out. I think it's one of GW's better games. I especially like the support players get on the Epic forum on rules questions, and the regular rules reviews that are done.

Re Space Marines: they are certainly NOT invinceable. I play SM's myself and have had a lot of trouble against Tau, Guard and Titan Legion lists. Tau in particular have really messed with my Thunderhawk air-assault list. And Tau are BRUTAL against Titans.

There is a group that has monthly Epic games at the LA Battle Bunker, usually at the end of the month. New players are definitely welcome, so if you're in the SoCal area, check us out!

what exactly is the difference between epic 40k and epic armageddon

3rd vs 4th edition.

I've literally just started pulling a Marine army together to particpate in EA this last couple of weeks. (A friend at the club I'm in donated a ton of duplicate stuff that was cluttering up his attic and I thought it looked cool, so bit.) Anyhow, I'm still in the "research" phase of a new game - reading the rules, surfing the web for information, that sort of thing.

What particularly attracts me to the game is that it has a good rep, it is free (download rules, donated figs), and I can participate in the universe of the 41st millenium without GW getting a penny out of me!

Anyhow, all this discussion is of interest to me, but I wonder though, what people think of NetEpic in comparison to the official version? What do you "Epic Experts" think of that version of the game?

Cheers
Paul

It's epic ten years ago, which is to say it takes a LOOOOONG time to play.

 

Epic: Armageddon is great. Well supported online and a great system all around. It's a great combined arms game where Air, artillery and ground all play their parts in a greater whole.

The very BEST thing about this games is the alternate activation format and the fact that nothing is static. Activated/unactivated units still play a part in the game during assaults/shooting due to supporting fire and crossfire. It's as much a maneuvering game as gothic and a number crunching game like fantasy where playing the odds of combat res is all part of the game.

Yay for Epic Armageddon I say.

Augustus, just one point to make that is indisputable fact. For the cost of a 10-tank Leman Russ company, you can get two Predator detachments, not three (plus 50 points change). The Leman Russes also have exactly double the protection.

The first Predator detachment might destroy one Leman Russ, if we?re talking about a scrap between those forces here, but that second Predator detachment doesn?t want to worry about breaking - it wants to worry about still being in existence come the end of the turn.

This is even ignoring the fact that the Leman Russes have a much longer range for their main armament.