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 warboss wrote:

cirons wrote:I've been reading and i accepted with my $31 offer, but i haven't received a message back yet. I'm assuming they either haven't replied to anyone yet or they are doing the really big backers first. I messaged them originally 2 hours after they made the offer and still haven't heard back, so i'll be curious to see if warboss ever gets messaged back.

I asked them about my pledge value the day of the announcement (with a followup message a few days later after their clarification updates). They took a week to respond to that initial email and they didn't read my followup message in the same thread which actually answered their short reply. I do actually believe them that they're swamped with both messages and fulfilling offers. They're an on site staff of maybe 3 people (Kevin, Alex, Charles) trying to deal with the aftermath of angering over 5,000+ customers simultaneously.

I just got my email from them btw for anyone else wondering.

evilsmurf wrote:
In all seriousness, do you think they'll still try to do the rifts board game?

I believe Palladium/Kevin Siembieda will take money from anyone who accepts their licensing terms. That includes self destructive mentally ill fan friend employees as long as they have the cash to pay upfront.

After so much bad news, i decided to get back to my painting.
Here are a few pics.

In the words of Jim Bowen "Look at what you could have won".

Lovely work, showing the potential of an RTT game, so badly squandered by Palladium

Thanks, Princecorg, for sharing. Those look good.

Nice work!

I had assumed most Dakka backers would not be taking the offer, but if any are interested in selling me a few boxes of addon destroids as part of their "refund" please feel free to PM me.

Really nice work on the painting.

Awesome stuff Princecorg! Reminds me why I bought in in the first place.

You should add an extra antenna or something to them and sell them as your completely original creation the Macro Aliens.

Great work princecorg! I would have loved to see such models on the tables at gaming stores!

What could have been...

Super jealous for that female power armor. I almost have everything from wave one battlecry built (was taking a break from my orks building RTT when the wave 2 cancellation hit.)

 warboss wrote:
Thanks! I doubt I'm the only person reading/posting here who took it but I figured I wanted to be honest about why I'll be largely sitting out of the discussion for the near future.

It it is any help, I initially was going to take the offer until they started changing terms.
I should have expected them to only have a half-formed plan initially but, I appear to still be an optimist.



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princecorg wrote:
After so much bad news, i decided to get back to my painting.
Here are a few pics.

You are awesome.
That porous plastic is really difficult to paint.

Word in the KS Comments section is that Palladium will NOT be at Adepticon.

 Talizvar wrote:
It it is any help, I initially was going to take the offer until they started changing terms.
I should have expected them to only have a half-formed plan initially but, I appear to still be an optimist.

Yeah, those initial trade in offers definitely needed clarification and my trade in order needed to be changed after they were released. FWIW, once they get your additional shipping money, they do mail it out fast (at least in my case).


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 TalonZahn wrote:
Word in the KS Comments section is that Palladium will NOT be at Adepticon.

That's what I figured and posted a few pages back. With them throwing up their hands officially and closing their wallets on Robotech, they have no real reason to waste money pretending they're interested in Wave 2 anymore.

Good to hear, I put in my request yesterday.

So, there's a new Kickstarter Update. And it's got it's usual tone deafness.

They're pleased to be able to offer backers the exchange. Welcome others take advantage of it. And are appreciative of the people who took them up on it already.

And they're calling it a "refund-in-kind". No, it's not, you scumbags. At best, it's a pennies on the dollar replacement. It's not a fething refund, and you know it.

Also, they're out of Max Veritechs, and the UEDF tokens. And they were already out of the Miriya FPA, and have been for several years. That they didn't restock them, I thought was a breakdown in relations with the supplier (G something). Probably was, but could also have been them giving up on actually doing something with RRT well before they decided to tell the people they owed several hundred thousand dollars to.

EDIT: And one backer being (and always has been) a complete douche. "It was a complete success! It's your fault for gambling! Don't back if you can't afford to lose!". Yeah, eat me. It's not a matter of not affording to lose. If PB went bankrupt, most people would be mad and move on. But that Palladium seem to think "Ooops, not our bad, money is spent, we're going to go on as business-as-usual" that infuriates people. And ignores both the Kickstarter terms, and Palladium's own statements. I guess that makes it how many broken promises by Kevin now? But we should absolutely trust him that there is no money left, and that there was no misappropriation. These f'n guys.

Well, I bet the kickstarter page will have some kind of takedown sent out at the end of the month so it may not even get to be a warning to others:

I agree that the most "maddening" part of all this is how Palladium Books can appear to pretty much do whatever they feel like and they appear to be proof against anything but the mildest of consequence.
It seems to fly in the face of everything we are taught.
It is funny how in order for society to function we need to agree to certain "social contracts" and then there are those that take advantage of that and feel it does not apply to them... and they get away with it.
Life does not have to be fair, but I REALLY need to make it clear that if I am messed with, it cannot get away scot-free... it sets a bad precedence.

I am very troubled by the Facebook group for the "litigation".
It appears the more vocal naysayers have completely angered a few key people.
Unfortunately, large groups tend to need to be lead (preferably with a known method and objective), looking for consensus is rather problematic.
My negativity can see this rather implode.
I hope I am wrong.

Well, going to my "geek-fest" Hotlead this weekend.
http://www.hotlead.ca/
Maybe I will see more RRT product in the "bring and buy".
Looking forward to an entire weekend of literally hundreds of happy gamers.
This may be the very thing to remind me why I have set such a high importance on "just" gaming models.

If you took 'the deal', why did you take it?

I woke up this morning thinking maybe I should consider it, get 3D printed stuff that is missing and just enjoy myself.

evilsmurf wrote:
In all seriousness, do you think they'll still try to do the rifts board game?

The Robotech money kept PG solvent and likely on the more flush side for 5 years. Kevin would sell all of his employees souls to have even a chance at that again.

There's no chance that it'll ever succeed because the thousands of angry people that backed this KS won't ever let a new KS be successful so hopefully he enjoyed the $1.3 mil he got from Robotech, he'll never see that much money again.

n815e wrote:If you took 'the deal', why did you take it?
I woke up this morning thinking maybe I should consider it, get 3D printed stuff that is missing and just enjoy myself.

I feel a little bit sitting on the fence.
PB has the money one way or another and may continue to avoid refund, despite all positive thinking.
The product will get destroyed anyway so you might as well recover something out of this.
There is demonstrable evidence people are receiving the trade items so they appear to be keeping their end up on this particular "deal".
I kinda burnt that bridge with my comments and messages I sent but sounds like you still have that option.

vonjankmon wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
In all seriousness, do you think they'll still try to do the rifts board game?

The Robotech money kept PG solvent and likely on the more flush side for 5 years. Kevin would sell all of his employees souls to have even a chance at that again.
There's no chance that it'll ever succeed because the thousands of angry people that backed this KS won't ever let a new KS be successful so hopefully he enjoyed the $1.3 mil he got from Robotech, he'll never see that much money again.

I am certain even now Kevin is wracking his brain on how to manage another influx of money like RRT again.
The Savage Worlds Rifts RPG squeaked through pretty well, licensing to another company may be his only means BUT it was probably very hard for him to be hands-off: it would not be a first choice.
Next best method: have someone approach him on a good product idea, sign them on as a contracted "company" / person / (ahem) shell/shill and flog them in another kickstarter.
Not saying that may not already been done with the Rifts board game but omitting a few known individuals in the KS may obtain some measure of "benefit of the doubt" that the Kevster depends on.

I always like to engage in an mental exercise of "if I had no morals, what would I do"? It helps me avoid trouble.

 Talizvar wrote:

I agree that the most "maddening" part of all this is how Palladium Books can appear to pretty much do whatever they feel like and they appear to be proof against anything but the mildest of consequence.
It seems to fly in the face of everything we are taught.
It is funny how in order for society to function we need to agree to certain "social contracts" and then there are those that take advantage of that and feel it does not apply to them... and they get away with it.
Life does not have to be fair, but I REALLY need to make it clear that if I am messed with, it cannot get away scot-free... it sets a bad precedence..

Depends on what kind of school you go to. If you take any business classes, pretty much the first thing they teach you is how to create a corporation that lets you do anything you want without consequences.

I kinda burnt that bridge with my comments and messages I sent but sounds like you still have that option.

I've already sent them a couple of messages requesting a refund of the money.
I have no doubt that they'd still be happy sending me product instead.

I am certain even now Kevin is wracking his brain on how to manage another influx of money like RRT again.

I am not entirely convinced that they spent "all" of the RRT money, just not enough left to produce Wave 2 and perhaps just enough to help pay for a lawyer or help with the bills for another year.
Certainly, between RRT, Carmen's license money (I think this was a large sum), the Savage Rifts thing... Kevin has been able to squeak by. Not sure if anyone is really going to jump at the chance to work with Palladium.

evilsmurf wrote:
In all seriousness, do you think they'll still try to do the rifts board game?

I'd almost be surprised if they didn't try it.

Remember that they were deep in doo-doo with the Robotech KS already but the Rifts property was still valuable for Pincale to license it for Savage worlds.

Robotech may have been a debacle, but the lesson to PB thus far is still that you can shaft your customers royally and some legit groups will still do business with you.

I'm glad I managed to dodge this one, and my sympathies to anyone who got burned by it. I was already leery of Palladium for other reasons for years, now this just makes me hope that company goes the way of the dodo as it deserves.

Semi-related (which is why I'm actually posting) I came across this. http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/strange-machine-games-to-create-battletech-board-game-line/

Seems that even though HG may be losing the license soon, they're still gonna try to milk it out for a few more products, just with someone other than PB.

 n815e wrote:

I am certain even now Kevin is wracking his brain on how to manage another influx of money like RRT again.

I am not entirely convinced that they spent "all" of the RRT money, just not enough left to produce Wave 2 and perhaps just enough to help pay for a lawyer or help with the bills for another year.
Certainly, between RRT, Carmen's license money (I think this was a large sum), the Savage Rifts thing... Kevin has been able to squeak by. Not sure if anyone is really going to jump at the chance to work with Palladium.

That's the big concern for me, and the thing annoying me most about the WK's. The only real evidence we have that there is no money remaining, is the word of an inveterate and continuous liar. The only real evidence we have that the money was all spent on legitimate expenses, is the word of an inveterate and continuous liar. The only real evidence we have as to what happened that caused this to fail when similar (or less funded projects) didn't, is... you get where I'm going here.

A crappy pie chart that tries to group things into large batches to confuse actual expenditures (like the Shipping I delved into a page or two ago as the simplest to show as invalid), is not sufficient. Hiding behind NDA's is just utter bs.

And it's made arguably worse by Palladium just carrying on as if it's "business as usual". If PB had said "We tried, we failed, and we're going to close up shop and refund backers to the best of our ability", I'd still feel sorry for backers that wouldn't get even close to what they're owed back, but at least Palladium would have taken responsibility for their part, and suffered some actual consequences.

It's the attempt to skate that's most infuriating.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 n815e wrote:

I am certain even now Kevin is wracking his brain on how to manage another influx of money like RRT again.

I am not entirely convinced that they spent "all" of the RRT money, just not enough left to produce Wave 2 and perhaps just enough to help pay for a lawyer or help with the bills for another year.
Certainly, between RRT, Carmen's license money (I think this was a large sum), the Savage Rifts thing... Kevin has been able to squeak by. Not sure if anyone is really going to jump at the chance to work with Palladium.

That's the big concern for me, and the thing annoying me most about the WK's. The only real evidence we have that there is no money remaining, is the word of an inveterate and continuous liar. The only real evidence we have that the money was all spent on legitimate expenses, is the word of an inveterate and continuous liar. The only real evidence we have as to what happened that caused this to fail when similar (or less funded projects) didn't, is... you get where I'm going here.

"Legitimate expenses" means almsot nothing when dealing with these kind of small operations.

Payroll is a legitimate expense and when you're paying yourself...

 Eilif wrote:
"Legitimate expenses" means almsot nothing when dealing with these kind of small operations.
Payroll is a legitimate expense and when you're paying yourself...

Agreed.
Due to the excellent job being done it was felt that the commander in chief should have a 30% pay increase that was long overdue for doing such a fantastic job.

An upgrade to the company car would be in order as well.
Maybe a company boat to take clients out to talk business and fish.
A company teamwork retreat in the Caribbean is long overdue.
Some benefits for messages administered to staff to assist in handling their stressful jobs has become a necessity.
So many legitimate needs that must be met, it is a wonder there was enough money to get Wave 1 out.

"Legitimate expenses" means almsot nothing when dealing with these kind of small operations.

Payroll is a legitimate expense and when you're paying yourself...

Being someone who feels that people should get paid for their work, in principle I think that paying staff who are actually working on the project is part of the project's expenses.
Now, any salary that PB has been pulling from the project funds over the last three years for pretending to work on it...

 Eilif wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
That's the big concern for me, and the thing annoying me most about the WK's. The only real evidence we have that there is no money remaining, is the word of an inveterate and continuous liar. The only real evidence we have that the money was all spent on legitimate expenses, is the word of an inveterate and continuous liar. The only real evidence we have as to what happened that caused this to fail when similar (or less funded projects) didn't, is... you get where I'm going here.

"Legitimate expenses" means almsot nothing when dealing with these kind of small operations.

Payroll is a legitimate expense and when you're paying yourself...

And that'd possibly be fine. If they show us documented evidence of what was spent, how it was spent, and what was the result of that spending.

Note, I don't consider "attempting to secure loans" or "discussions with manufacturers in bad faith" (ie, when they knew they had no funding), to be legitimate expenses. Regarding payroll, remember, PB claim that all the funding was exhausted by the end of Wave 1. Let's give them until the 2014. So I wouldn't want to see any claims of needing money devoted to payroll after that. I could easily argue that any money for payroll after the end of 2013 (their chosen estimated delivery date), would be invalid, but I'll be generous.

I'd want to see what their pay rate was before the campaign as a comparison (no, you don't get to go largess until AFTER the backers get their stuff), and I'd want to see what the ratio of work on campaign tasks, and non-campaign tasks were, because we know PB remained mostly business as usual. And most importantly, I'd want to know what the estimate was for payroll BEFORE the campaign, when they were asking for $70K for what was essentially the box set.

That's something people need to take into account. The original asking price was less than $100K. So $47K in advertising is utter bs. As would be any significantly large payroll expenditure, as backers got not much more than was initially promised in the original budget (5 sculpts, full rules set, data cards vs another 7 sculpts and their data cards), so fine, double their original budget for payroll. It's not on backers to pay for their incompetence and mismanagement of schedules and resources.