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 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S

I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.

It's truly been ridiculous with some people for a long time - even well before it was apparent things had totally gone off the rails at SP/ND. I'm out my pledge too - and it sucks. But anything Soda Pop did was out of a mix of human error (total feature bloat when they decided to split the game into 3 games) and bad luck (Deke having a heart attack) and not any sort of malfeasance. And while I wouldn't back another SP kickstarter - they don't deserve near the level of hate and vitriol they get for it. A lot of kickstarters have failed and a lot of backers have not gotten their goods. They got in over their heads and they made some bad decisions - they didn't take the money and run off and buy a yacht. People need to get over their "moral" crusade.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S

I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.

Agreed.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Are you seriously trying to raise an outrage mob to hunt down freelancers? for real?

They got contracted, they did their job, hopefully they got payed for it, its not their job to do background check on their employers and its not their moral obligation to check their employers ethical status.

Hear, hear.

Also, shame on anyone comparing this to flippin' Apartheid.

If you really want to stick it to ND, target anyone who'd consider distributing them. Freelancers are employees with fewer rights.

The artists and sculptors had nothing to do with misusing backer funds. Not a thing. Getting pissy with them for doing freelance artwork is asinine. Ninja Division lied to their backers and misused the funds. Blaming anyone else is straight up misdirected rage. Ignorant, foolish misdirected rage.

Imagine if everything went south with the Kingdom Death kickstarter because of company mismanagement. Would the artists and sculptors deserve to be denounced online? Boycotted? Harassed online or at conventions?

The artists who were hired to do the art and sculpts for SDE, Relic Knights and Starfinder were hired as freelance artists, and they did their job. They didn't lie or steal from anybody. Not you, not me, not anyone. Trying to take them down is idiotic juvenile nonsense.

First of all I assume the absurdity of the discussion is what made it into a comedy film, secondly even if I take such discussion seriously, SPM/ ND were "ok" when such freelancers were contracted.

As a freelancer who works in the gaming industry I find the idea of going after freelancers because games they worked on didn't get funded to be absolutely insane. It also suggests a huge misunderstanding of how freelancing in the game industry works.

Freelancers take jobs months, or sometimes years, before a project is completed. They are paid to do a single specific job (illustrations, renders, graphic design, etc). They have zero control over the product itself. They have no more involvement with the production of the product or the finances of the company than Kickstarter backers do.

Freelancers often have no info about a project other than what is provided by the client. All they know is that they've been offered a paying job. Sometimes they're not even aware of what kind of game they're working on (Board game? Miniatures game? Card game?), the publisher of the game or even the name of the game. Sometimes work is commissioned for one game and then used for another. Usually work is commissioned months, or sometimes years, before the game is complete and ready to launch. Sometimes work never gets used at all.

Here's something you probably don't know. Game companies often stiff freelancers, and either don't pay them for competed work, or only pay part of what was promised, or hold back payment for months or even years. This is super common, and even happens with large companies like Wizards of the Coast and Fantasy Flight. So if you're sore about not getting what you paid for, know that the freelance community (the people who make the games you love) has been getting the short end of the stick since before you started gaming. Because of this freelancers are very skittish about who we work with. However if a company has a history of paying freelancers without bs they're usually a safe bet to do work for (and from what I heard, at least before the last round of Kickstarters, SPM paid its freelancers pretty reliably). And no freelancer would expect a company thats actually paying its people to not be able to produce their game. Usually its the other way around. A company will rip off the freelancers in order to get its game out the door.

Freelancers have no way of knowing if the client they're working for is planning to rip off their kickstarter backers (usually we're not even aware of whether a project has been crowdfunded. Often our part happens before that). Freelancers don't know if the client they're working for has secretly run out of money and has no way of delivering their product. Like every employee in every industry, freelancers assume that the people who are paying them are actually trying to run a legitimate business and create a successful product. Even today a Freelancer contacted by Ninja Division would have no reason to turn down work, as long as there was a guarantee of pay. I mean, if a flailing business that is struggling to deliver products wants to hire me to draw some mecha-catgirls for them, why would I say no, as long as the pay is guaranteed?

The idea that freelancers should be in any way held responsible for Ninja Division and SPM's mess is ridiculous. Telling people to boycott a freelancer or go after them is gross. If thats your position you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and should really stop posting on the matter.

I would have thought that boycotting Kickstarter would be a better bet if you want to go after third parties for misguided vengeqance. They were the ones who enabled Ninja Division to get into this state after all. Or dakkadakka or any gaming news site, podcast, FB group, etc.

Everything @Jake said.

 jake wrote:
As a freelancer who works in the gaming industry I find the idea of going after freelancers because games they worked on didn't get funded to be absolutely insane. It also suggests a huge misunderstanding of how freelancing in the game industry works....snip...

Exalted. Well said, and completely true.

And just in case there's some confusion about my previous post, I most certainly was not suggesting vilifying freelancers. They have no direct impact on how a project is handled, and if they got paid in a timely manner by the company, well, of course they'll probably keep working for them. If they didn't, then they likely won't keep working for that company.

Now, I did say that reputation could get around, and it is possible that some freelancers who continue to do work for known bad companies (companies that continually shaft Kickstarter backers, customers, etc.), then yeah, other companies might not want that association. At the same time, most companies aren't terribly transparent on work done by freelancers, so it's not going to be "common knowledge" who worked on what in most cases.

And as I said in my previous post, which may have been worded poorly on my part and thus misinterpreted, end-consumers not only can't really have much direct impact on freelancers, but it really shouldn't even be a consideration, IMO, for them in the vast majority of cases. Now, sure, I could see some form of avoiding a particular freelancer's work for whatever company hires them if it's something like the freelancer is a known sexual abuser or the like, but that is most certainly not the same ballpark as "Bob the Freelancer did art for Shady Company years ago, and Shady Company shafted me so I'm never buying any game that Bob has done any freelance work for." The later is stupid.

There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

I think it's reasonable to remember that Soda Pop Miniatures, at the start of at least the Super Dungeon Legends KS, was doing well and had delivered on previous projects. They were not nearly as shady as we have come to find them to be now. Things changed between now and then and holding independent contractors responsible for the actions of a future screw up seems like a bit much.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole. Also, I'm astounded that someone angry about not getting their man-dollies going after an artist for being paid to assist in the creation of man-dollies. If you blast everyone for working with SPM after gak started going off the rails, how would you expect them to ever fix it? Or is irrational bitterness all you want at this stage?

At the time Legends was launched, SDE was fine, having delivered Forgotten King (though Robotech hadn't yet been completed, but Palladium).

By the time SPM had unilaterally cut off refunds (March 23, 2018), it was obvious to everyone that they weren't delivering on their promises.

As of their last series of Updates outlining that they are at least $1M in the hole with no way out, it's not reasonable to believe that any new funds will help existing backers, but only add to the number of things SPM is failing to deliver. Enabling a known bad actor doesn't deserve support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.

I have disavowed them and refuse to do further business with them. I'm clean.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.

He just wants to prove he’s right after what? Two years or more of saying they are going out of business? Like most small companies last as long as ND/SPM have.

As for the rest of his comparison

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
At the time Legends was launched, SDE was fine, having delivered Forgotten King (though Robotech hadn't yet been completed, but Palladium).

By the time SPM had unilaterally cut off refunds (March 23, 2018), it was obvious to everyone that they weren't delivering on their promises.

As of their last series of Updates outlining that they are at least $1M in the hole with no way out, it's not reasonable to believe that any new funds will help existing backers, but only add to the number of things SPM is failing to deliver. Enabling a known bad actor doesn't deserve support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.

I have disavowed them and refuse to do further business with them. I'm clean.

Removed - BrookM

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
At the time Legends was launched, SDE was fine, having delivered Forgotten King (though Robotech hadn't yet been completed, but Palladium).

By the time SPM had unilaterally cut off refunds (March 23, 2018), it was obvious to everyone that they weren't delivering on their promises.

As of their last series of Updates outlining that they are at least $1M in the hole with no way out, it's not reasonable to believe that any new funds will help existing backers, but only add to the number of things SPM is failing to deliver. Enabling a known bad actor doesn't deserve support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.

I have disavowed them and refuse to do further business with them. I'm clean.

Removed - BrookM

Removed - if you cannot reply in a polite manner in compliance with Rule #1, then don't reply at all please

- BrookM

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

Wrong. None of them "enabled" anything bad here. Artist were paid for their work. That's 100% fine. Ninja Division lied to their backers about their lousy financial management and ran project after project hoping one would make it big enough to solve all their financial woes. When somebody at a party hits you in the face, you don't start throwing punches at everyone else in the room because you see their presence as "enabling" the jerk who hit you. Attacking innocent people who only contributed to the art, and had nothing to do with the failure of these kickstarters, makes you the guy with the Death Star, not them. They didn't hurt anyone, and you're trying to hurt them. Not cool.

 Coralline Algae wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

Wrong. None of them "enabled" anything bad here. Artist were paid for their work. That's 100% fine. Ninja Division lied to their backers about their lousy financial management and ran project after project hoping one would make it big enough to solve all their financial woes. When somebody at a party hits you in the face, you don't start throwing punches at everyone else in the room because you see their presence as "enabling" the jerk who hit you. Attacking innocent people who only contributed to the art, and had nothing to do with the failure of these kickstarters, makes you the guy with the Death Star, not them. They didn't hurt anyone, and you're trying to hurt them. Not cool.

Except I'm talking about actions going forward, not what happened in the past.

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm simply refusing to support anyone who is going to keep doing business with SPM/ND. If they want to keep partnering with SPM/ND, that's a decision that should be made with the understanding that some people will boycott you for doing so.

If you personally want to support them, that's your choice.

I won't.

That's not an attack. That's a personal choice in how I choose to spend my money, who I believe deserves that money.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Coralline Algae wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

Wrong. None of them "enabled" anything bad here. Artist were paid for their work. That's 100% fine. Ninja Division lied to their backers about their lousy financial management and ran project after project hoping one would make it big enough to solve all their financial woes. When somebody at a party hits you in the face, you don't start throwing punches at everyone else in the room because you see their presence as "enabling" the jerk who hit you. Attacking innocent people who only contributed to the art, and had nothing to do with the failure of these kickstarters, makes you the guy with the Death Star, not them. They didn't hurt anyone, and you're trying to hurt them. Not cool.

Except I'm talking about actions going forward, not what happened in the past.

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm simply refusing to support anyone who is going to keep doing business with SPM/ND. If they want to keep partnering with SPM/ND, that's a decision that should be made with the understanding that some people will boycott you for doing so.

If you personally want to support them, that's your choice.

I won't.

That's not an attack. That's a personal choice in how I choose to spend my money, who I believe deserves that money.

Is SPM/ND still hiring freelancers NOW? Probably not as they have said that they don’t have funds to deliver. Just because it’s obvious to YOU(who has been droning on and on for a looooooong time about them going out of business without having any actual financial knowledge of their fiscal wellbeing), doesn’t mean that a freelancer should believe your insight, just like plenty of others here on dakkadakka didn’t follow your financial advice. Hurray for you and your incredible foresight. Is that what you wanted to hear? Enough already. People are out money, I get that you are too, but enough. You are not the caped crusader any of us want or deserve. Let’s free up all the threads from this nonsense and start looking at ways for people to recoupe their losses, or at least see what the next steps are. Trying to get back at freelancers for earning a paycheck when all they are concerned about is if there are funds to cover their wages is pointless. It’s just bringing out the worst in everyone.

 Theophony wrote:

You are not the caped crusader any of us want or deserve.

Fething. Exalted.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


I have disavowed them and refuse to do further business with them. I'm clean.

Just to check, you've contacted them and said not to bother you sending you your stuff as you don't want anything else to do with them?

Wasn't John one of those that got a refund and actually isn't owed anything from this? (or am I misremembering? EDIT: nope most of his pledge refunded https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/510/663925.page#10029512 less KS fees and a dollar short https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540/663925.page#10031649)

Also IDW have released a statement distancing themselves from Ninja Division

https://idwgames.com/futureprojectsupdate/

 DaveC wrote:
Wasn't John one of those that got a refund and actually isn't owed anything from this? (or am I misremembering? EDIT: nope most of his pledge refunded https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/510/663925.page#10029512 less KS fees and a dollar short https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540/663925.page#10031649)

Also IDW have released a statement distancing themselves from Ninja Division

https://idwgames.com/futureprojectsupdate/

If he was you can hardly fault the guy for being smart enough for pull out. The rest of us got in too deep and got lured by the fantasy, didn't pull out and now we are stuck paying for it.

jake wrote:As a freelancer who works in the gaming industry I find the idea of going after freelancers because games they worked on didn't get funded to be absolutely insane. It also suggests a huge misunderstanding of how freelancing in the game industry works.

As a freelancer myself, I can attest to most if not all jake has stated.

JohnHwangDD wrote:There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.

Funny you say that.

If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.

Now change "company" for "country" and see where that gets you. What would you think if, say, someone decided to "not be upset" when/if the USA blows up along with everyone else in it because well, they decided to vote for that guy after all? (this is an example meant to be kinda tongue in cheek, please guys, take it as such). Because you're basically talking about the same level of responsibility here.

I still don't think John understands what a freelancer is, what freelancers do and how it all works. Or he does, and just doesn't care. Not only does boycotting projects that former Ninja Division freelancers worked on potentially hurt people who were not involved with this fiasco in any way, but it also just doesn't make any sense. Why try to punish someone who wasn't involved?

John keeps saying that people who choose to continue to associate with Ninja Division as freelancers should be punished, but why? If ND came to me and said "we're finishing up our kickstarter projects, but to do that we need to hire an artist to produce X number of illustrations", why should I be punished for taking that job? Why should a sculptor? Why should a graphic designer? I mean, if Ninja Division hires a manufacturer to produce the rest of the models they owe people, is John going to start claiming that everyone should boycott that manufacturer? Boycott the printer that produces the rulebooks. Boycott USPS for shipping them?

And as ridiculous as a boycott is, that actually might hurt some poor freelancer. Some guy who did nothing wrong at all might end up getting turned away from a job because someone running a gaming Kickstarter saw his name mentioned here and doesn't want to hire someone to work on their game for fear of internet trolls crapping all over their project.

I know John's passionate about this, but a lot of us were ripped off (and didn't get our money back, unlike John), and we're not trying to hurt innocent people who are already working in a crappy industry that underpays them (or often doesn't pay at all). I think its time the mods here told John to knock it off.

angel of death 007 wrote:
The rest of us got in too deep and got lured by the fantasy, didn't pull out and now we are stuck paying for it.

Angel of Death 007 speaks wise words here so please all listen good. "If you don't pull out, then you'll be stuck paying for it"

Heed those words of wisdom. Unfortunately, I didn't, and now I'm married with 2 Children. I'm in about $250 on Legends and around $400 on Relic Knights. No one should be witch hunting anyone other than SPM themselves. If that was the case, I'd be flying out to Canada to have a word with Marie-Claude Bourbonnais for being on SPM's payroll and making her Cosplay outfits. To be fair though, if I met her in the flesh, the last thing I'd be talking to her about is SPM's mismanagement of $$$ on a Kickstarter, although probably $$$$ would eventually enter into our conversation

I could deal with the mismanagement, what I can't deal with is the lies told by SPM to claw additional $$$ from their loyal backers and fans. Taking Shipping Costs from backers because the Product was ready to ship when the reality was that it hadn't even been fully developed, let alone manufactured. Anyone who backed their KS has lost all their $$$ and will recieve nothing. Proof of that happened the other year with Spartan Games.

Last year when Spartan Games folded they wee running x1 Kickstarter and mid way through the delivery of another. As soon as they folded, anyone who hadn't received their pledges received nothing. Even when their IP was bought by Warcradle Studios, they bought all the IP for the stuff released through the KS, they didn't buy the liability to complete delivery of it. So anyone hoping that some savious may come along and buy SPM IP, they are not going to then lose £1M fufulling multiple KS that they don't actually need to forfill.

Also look at PRODOS / Acheon Studios. AVP released to retail, now on it's 2nd edition, and still, KS Backers from 2013 haven't recieved their pledges. And they've not got a leg to stand on, tough. I was one of those, although after much negotiation I've received my pledge in full, many haven't.

A couple of quotes from the comments:

We are continuing to work on solutions - seems when it rains it pours, but in all honesty, our silence has been a horrid void for creating speculation. We got smashed coming out of Gencon last year with finance issues, we had a package lined up to move everything forward, and it got shot out from underneath us before the end of the year. At no time were we in a good spot to share anything with so much uncertainty - and for that hesitance, I apologize.

Our days are now filled with hopeful and substantive discussions with outside partners to help us move things forward, and AS SOON as I have verifiable news to keep you guys in the loop, we will be right here talking about it.

Just wanted to pop in and say hi.

As we work on solution, please note -our goals are quite simple:

Unless we come in and say otherwise, we are pursuing a FULL delivery of the KS, miniatures and everything you pledged for. It is very important to us, and to you.

I guess one way to get moneys to offload tons of stuff to Miniaturemarket.com, they just got these in yesterday I believe as clearance items.

Obviously a restock and straight to the clearance bins.

If nothing else that cash boost will cover their payroll for a few weeks as they milk this along.

Schmapdi wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S

I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.

It's truly been ridiculous with some people for a long time - even well before it was apparent things had totally gone off the rails at SP/ND. I'm out my pledge too - and it sucks. But anything Soda Pop did was out of a mix of human error (total feature bloat when they decided to split the game into 3 games) and bad luck (Deke having a heart attack) and not any sort of malfeasance. And while I wouldn't back another SP kickstarter - they don't deserve near the level of hate and vitriol they get for it. A lot of kickstarters have failed and a lot of backers have not gotten their goods. They got in over their heads and they made some bad decisions - they didn't take the money and run off and buy a yacht. People need to get over their "moral" crusade.

I would usually agree. It's a risk you always take when you back on Kickstarter. The reason I disagree in this instance is a very specific event: they told backers to pay for shipping as the product was ready to ship. It wasn't. It didn't exist. That's not okay. That's not taking a risk with Kickstarter. That's straight up fraud. It's obtaining money by deception. I don't see how that can be argued any other way.