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Sisters have a very high ITC ranking.

It stands to reason that top-tier factions would have a higher win percentage, regardless of the number of veteran players.

You are confusing correlation and causation.

I spend a chunk of my life looking at causation and correlation, I'm pretty sure I understand it. This, however, was about whether the argument presented, no matter how right or wrong it was, meant that 'vets' of one faction were better than the other as you seem to be suggesting. It didn't and in fact could well support the opposite.

The original post referenced (or the one I believe was being referenced) was not about ITC results at all, it was about the data in this thread and how at the time there were only probably 4 players reporting sisters games. The point actually being made ironically was that there was to little decent data (in this thread specifically) to support any major argument about how good sisters are as a faction due to player skew.

If you want to argue that the stats elsewhere than this thread support some other argument, then sure go ahead. I'm have no issue per se with what you are saying in that respect.


As for your statement, that it stands to reason that top tier = high win percentage. Well that may be true intuitively, but most certainly not a given. Another game (based on star trek) where I played years ago in some tourneys and collated some stats we saw one of the top factions (feds) or 'top tier' as you would put it, have the worst win rate (worst by a long way out of 12 factions), precisely for the reasons you say don't matter. It was by far and away the most popular faction, but whilst very good when played by very good players was very bad when played by those who did not understand the subtleties.

IandI wrote:
I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k. It's true for me, I've been enjoying plastic crack since about 1997 and have played roughly 600 or 700 (I figure 30-40 games a year for 20 years...) games of 40k plus a handful of tournaments. I've got 4 other armies but at least 150 or so of those games were with the ladies.

What's the experience level of the rest of the "Heresy Purgers"?

I've been playing 40k since 2010/11 as Crimson Fists but picked up the sisters in about 2013. i've liked strategy games so i picked it up slowing since there was a huge amount of rules to digest.

Space Wolves vs Black Templars (NewDex) - SW win

IandI wrote:
I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k.

The consensus here is that all sob players are pro, all ork players are stupid and that it's not l2p arguement in any conceivable way.

Results from my group:

Space Wolves VS Daemons, SW win
Daemons VS Blood Angels, Daemons win
Blood Angels VS Astra militarum, BA win
Astra militarum VS Daemons, AM win
Tau Empire VS Chaos marines, Tau win

Deathguard vs Mixed Chaos, Chaos win
Deathguard vs Astra Militarum/Inquisition, Astra Militarum win
Deathguard vs Mixed Imperium (Scions, Sisters, Grey Knights and a bunch fo Wyverns), Imperium win

Marmatag wrote:It would be nice to see plastic sisters, ministorum, and for a lot of chaos stuff that's finecast.

Finecast and metal are huge turn offs for me when buying anything.

I actually like the metal models. They have a nice weight to them.

mrhappyface wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There are at least 5 of us contributing, I think. It's good to see all of us doing well.

Oddly enough, I'm not contributing. My sisters are shelved until I can get plastics. Naturally this is a long wait; c'est la vie.

Mfw people think plastic SoB will come with the new codex

Ha. No.

I mean, they might, but I doubt it. So long as our products go "temporarily out of stock online" and not "last chance to buy," I think it's safe to bet that we're not getting plastic for at least a month or two.

As I explained elsewhere, plastic Sisters wouldn't be for us. Those of us who play Sisters already have a fair amount of stuff, and are willing to pay $9 a model for metal figures. GW knows that. Plastics would be targeted at securing new audience for the army, which, while not a bad thing, is something they're not likely to do.


Anyway:

Sisters v. Dark Eldar

I had first go, and crossed the board and blew up half his Wracks and both his Pain Engines. He charged me with his remaining ones, and I burned them up in flamer overwatch. He also engaged Celestine with his named Haemonculus. From that point on, Celestine became bogged down with and unable to kill the Haemonculus, and the rest of my forces worked on taking out his Venoms and Ravagers. His two airplanes circled around and stuck some hits on my tanks. I focused on his ground units, since I didn't really have the means to interfere with his aircraft, and charged my Penitent Engine in to get Celestine out on turn 4, since she and the Haemonculus still hadn't managed to stick any damage to each other, even using Acts of Faith to fight twice during my turn. The Pengine worked and the Haemonculus died, good riddance. I killed his last Venom, and that ended the game since he had no more ground troops. It was actually quite a fight, at least from my perspective. Sisters victory.



Also, from other folks [winner v. loser]

Orks v. Tyranids
Dark Eldar v. Blood Angels
Guard v. Guard
Tau v. Necrons

Codex CSM win vs DE
Codex SM win vs. Orks
Eldar win vs. Daemons(preFAQ)

 koooaei wrote:

IandI wrote:
I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k.

The consensus here is that all sob players are pro, all ork players are stupid and that it's not l2p arguement in any conceivable way.

What?

Orks players aren't stupid. I know a guy whose been playing Orks since 5th and he's currently only lost one game out of fifteen played. On the other hand, I know several Orks and Tyranids players who specifically eschew "good" lists and units because "it's too powerful" or "it's not fluffy", and get their asses handed to them.

We had a good laugh about it when he made a tactical withdraw instead of charging ahead, so as to stay out of range of two full squads of termigaunts and get into cover: "Orks using tactics? What madness is this?"



Strategically, I think Dark Eldar and Harlequins do what we do, but slightly better. However, Dark Eldar and Harlequins don't have the option to ally with Imperial Guard for Earthshaker Guns and Scions. I've seen quite a few Sisters lists that are Sisters in name, but otherwise Imperial Guard lists, or at least have very strong Imperial Guard or Space Marine presence.

I think the Act of Faith rule should be like Canticles, in that it only triggers if the entire detachment is Adepta Sororitas/Adeptus Ministorium.



Anyway, I'm just happy that we're kicking Space Marine ass. I guess the real definition of genetically superior is having two X chromosomes .

All Index for both forces unless stated otherwise

Won

Deathguard vs Astra Militarum
Deathguard vs Astra Militarum
Deathguard vs Astra Militarum
Deathguard vs Astra Militarum/Primaris Marines
Deathguard vs Astra Militarum/Primaris Marines
Deathguard vs Orks
Chaos Space Marines (Codex) vs Dark Angels
Tyranids vs Astra Militarum

Lost

Nurgle Daemons vs Astra Militarum
Deathguard vs Orks
Deathguard vs Space Marines
Deathguard vs Grey Knights
Deathguard vs Astra Militarum
Deathguard vs Eldar
Deathguard vs FW Death Korps
Deathguard vs FW Death Korps

Draw

Deathguard vs FW Death Korps
Deathguard vs FW Death Korps

Acts of faith should have a higher chance to fail. I would say they should need a 4+ for normal units, and a 3+ for HQs to manifest an act of faith.

Or, a price hike for anything Sororitas / Ministorum that can cast an act of faith.

 koooaei wrote:
The consensus here is that all sob players are pro, all ork players are stupid

The sad thing here is the sisters players haven't been the ones saying Ork players are bad, yet we're lumped in anyway because feth us, that's why.

 Marmatag wrote:
Acts of faith should have a higher chance to fail. I would say they should need a 4+ for normal units, and a 3+ for HQs to manifest an act of faith.

So wait, you think that not only should we we roll 2+ to figure out if we even GET an act of faith (one, singular) each turn, we then would have to roll 4+ to see if we even get to use it?

Christ, might as well fething remove it entirely, because apparently only Space Marines are fething allowed to have anything fething nice apparently.

You know what? Screw it. Marines should have to roll a 4+ every turn. If they don't pass, they don't get to use their chapter tactics. This is balance! What, you don't like it? It still happens more often than you'd let sisters get their acts of faith-- and it applies to the entire army! What's not to love? Why don't you like this idea? Don't you WANT the defining rule of your army to be turned in to a 50% chance?

Your "fix" just basically gives Sisters all the more reason to take Celestine. We already only get one act of faith a turn normally. We get one more on a 4+ with imagifiers-- your solution would cut their effectiveness in half, making the already weak and pathetic unit even more of a waste of points. Celestine gets a guaranteed one, so might as well take her, since there's a good chance your AoF would fail anyway unless you use it on her. She's the only HQ we have worth using an AoF on-- what, you think a canoness is worth using one on? What a fething joke. She has less offensive capability and mobility even with an act of faith than a damn space marine captain-- at least he can be given a jump pack and a wider variety of equipment. Oh look you can give make her carry a combiplasma at 60 points, or an eviscerator at 67 (which wounds marines on a 3+ and most vehicles on a 5+). THAT'LL MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

Pfeh. If you want to "fix" Sisters, at least learn how they work first.

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Acts of faith should have a higher chance to fail. I would say they should need a 4+ for normal units, and a 3+ for HQs to manifest an act of faith.

So wait, you think that not only should we we roll 2+ to figure out if we even GET an act of faith (one, singular) each turn, we then would have to roll 4+ to see if we even get to use it?

No, that is not what i meant.

Do you have anger issues?

 Marmatag wrote:
Acts of faith should have a higher chance to fail. I would say they should need a 4+ for normal units, and a 3+ for HQs to manifest an act of faith.

Or, a price hike for anything Sororitas / Ministorum that can cast an act of faith.

I'm just going to point out:

We have 1 a turn. 2 with Saint Celestine.

It used to be: We have a number of Faith points roughly equal to the number of units in the army, and a Faith Point may be spent to attempt an Act of Faith. Roll 2d6, if the result is higher than the squad size, it activates. You get another Faith Point when a unit dies.

Then it became: Each unit can try an Act of Faith once, on Leadership. For 10 points, it can try again.

Now it's 1 a turn.



I absolutely detest the Act of Faith system as current;y implemented, because it's engineered with the idea of us being a small, allied contingent onto a larger force, and is dramatically more powerful if you're a Space Marines army with Celestine and a squad of Sisters than it is if you're an entirely Sisters army.

If units that can manifest Acts of Faith need a price increase, we'd be in the same boat as Grey Knights, who are paying for features they can't use.

I think Marmatag meant you can choose all your units to use Acts of Faith but have to roll off to see if the SoB are faithful enough.

Personally I prefer them just having it automatically and possibly giving them a points raise if they are dominating. Maybe roll off for each unit (2+ for characters, 3+ for non-characters).

Ynnarri does sort of the same thing and yet they can do it with ease, for every unit. SoB get one and even then, it's at the mercy of dice gods.

 Marmatag wrote:
No, that is not what i meant.

That's what you said.

 Marmatag wrote:
Do you have anger issues?

Don't try to fething distract from your nonsense arguments by turning the conversation to be about me again.

Don't you have cheap HQs that also give you extra acts of faith?

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think Marmatag meant you can choose all your units to use Acts of Faith but have to roll off to see if the SoB are faithful enough.

That isn't what he said.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't you have cheap HQs that also give you extra acts of faith?

No.

We have a 150-250 point HQ who gives an additional one, but also has to use it to retain optimum effectiveness, and 40 point Elites that have a 50% chance of granting an additional one, but those 40 point elites can't have jump packs and block vanguard, so they're entirely non-viable.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't you have cheap HQs that also give you extra acts of faith?

Nope.

We have 40-point elite choices that give us an additional act of faith to a single unit within 6" of the elite choice if they roll a 4+. And are equipped with a boltgun and no customization, so they basically are a points sink that have to be carried around with the units that need the AoF-- and as a result, using them with our best unit (dominions) causes them to lose the rule that makes them our best unit.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't you have cheap HQs that also give you extra acts of faith?

Celestine isn't cheap.

They do have some characters in the Elite slot (I forget name) but (A) they eat up elites slots which might be used for other stuff and (B) it's a 4+ so again not guaranteed.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't you have cheap HQs that also give you extra acts of faith?

Celestine isn't cheap.

They do have some characters in the Elite slot (I forget name) but (A) they eat up elites slots which might be used for other stuff and (B) it's a 4+ so again not guaranteed.

All the elites are crap anyway.

Imagifiers are 40 points for a boltgun and a 50% chance to give a single nearby unit an act of faith.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't you have cheap HQs that also give you extra acts of faith?

Celestine isn't cheap.

They do have some characters in the Elite slot (I forget name) but (A) they eat up elites slots which might be used for other stuff and (B) it's a 4+ so again not guaranteed.

All the elites are crap.

Sounds plausible. My one game against them was basically three of the 4+ AoF girls, Battle Sister squads, Dominions(?) some jump girls, Immolator and Exorcist. Canoness and Priest too, because my opponent was kind enough not to field Celestine at 1000.

I'd like Acts If Faith to be some kind of combination of the current system and the Codex: Witch Hunters system. You have a set amount of Acts determined by the army you take and martyrdom if characters and they can be spent on the effects we have now but that might be a pain to manage since they'd be similar to CPs.

Finally, Marmatag, you're going to give us anger issues.


You repeatedly demonstrate no understand of armies and their balance, and when our competitive lists perform better than "fluffy" Space Marine lists, you propose alterations to areas where the army differs from Space Marines to make them worse than Space Marines without actually addressing the actual problem, if it's a problem at all.


First off, let me give you a quick run down of the Sisters army:

Saint Celestine: The only viable HQ because she has a jump pack and grants an Act of Faith, which she uses for herself to keep pace with the rest of the army.
Canoness: A brick. Costs points, does nothing usually.

Battle Sisters: Space Marines, but with poor weapon skill, toughness, and strength. Don't have access to the good special and heavy weapons.

Seraphim: Jump Troops, but crappy at melee. They have 4 Inferno Pistols. They're only good when an Act of Faith is used on them, so only one can be taken viably in an army.
Dominions: Special Weapons troops. Our only legitimately good unit. Vanguard makes them good, and they lose it if they share a transport with non-Dominions. Dominions generally don't make use of Acts of Faith, because tanks can't get Acts. And, because they lose the special rule that makes them good if there's anything else with them, everything else is non-viable.

Imagifier: More than 2 IG Platoon Commanders, for a 50/50 chance at doing the thing once. Can't keep up on foot, and blocks Vanguard.
Dialogus: What? We're MSU
Hospitaller: Okay, like an Imagifier, but only has 1 option and it's the worst of the 4 options.
Repentia: Did you want a terrible unit that costs a hilarious number of points? T3, 6+ Invul, A2, S6, AP-2, all for 17 points!
Celestians: Battle Sisters, but more expensive? Why bother.

Exorcist: It's a Leman Russ, except it doesn't have sponsons. So it just has the remarkably gakky Battle Cannon. I have no idea why it's D3 damage when other Krak missiles are D6. I'll direct you to the 108 point Basilisk for comparison, which has +1 STR and gets to roll twice and pick the highest for shot count.
Retributors: Space Marine Devastators, but they don't get any of the good Heavy Weapons. Oh.

Penitent Engines: Okay, a dreadnought, but for melee. It doesn't have Vanguard nor can it benefit from Acts of Faith, so it basically a distraction, at best.
Crusaders, Arcos and Death Cult: All melee troops that can't get to melee. I mean, sure, saturation with them can be done, but why?



As you can see, Sisters is an army that built around a single unit. Dominions. Even then, it's not out of line or anything, like Stormtroopers are. Most of our units are strictly inferior to their Space Marine counterparts, and the only reason Dominions are better than Sternguard is because Dominions do a mostly-unique thing. And it's not a unique thing, actually, because fast and deep-striking special weapons teams are actually fairly common in all armies but Space Marines. In fact, Sternguard can do it with a Drop Pod.

Stormtroopers are egregious because, for 9PPM, they get BS3+, all the Special Weapons, Deep Strike and pay IG discount prices for guns. Dominions are 10PPM and require a transport that is functionally identical but strictly more expensive than similarly equipped Space Marine counterparts, and pay Space Marine prices for guns. Dominions are good, but not game-breaking in the least.

And, of course, since the army is built on Dominions when playing as Adepta Sororitas [as opposed to Imperial Guard with Celestine and one squad of friends], Acts of Faith are basically irrelevant.




So what is making our army so good?

Well, we're well equipped to beat the crap out of a popular Space Marine mech infantry build. In fact, all my "all comers" lists are actually tailored lists to beat Space Marines, because there are a lot more Space Marines than there are Tyranids. R
Second, because of the lack of useful variety in the army, there's no middle casual ground between "really really bad" and "competitive". There's probably no small number of Sisters players who, like me, are running lists that can hold their own in a tourney for casual games.
Third, we can take allies to fill in our holes. Dark Eldar, who can do our thing better than we can, can't take Basilisks to help them out with what they're not good at.




So, if you want to complain that Grey Knights are underpowered, I'll commiserate with you, because they are. But the rest of the Space Marines aren't, and the problem with Grey Knights is a design flaw in the Grey Knights bringing them down, which needs to be corrected by adjusting the problem with the Grey Knights, not by dragging every other thing in the game down to the same level.

I would argue the imagifier is probably the best elite the Sororitas have. They're very expensive for what they are but their 50% to generate an act of faith for a nearby unit make them a potentially significant buff for any squad that they don't accidentally trip up. The problem is you're paying essentially 28 points for only a 50% chance.

That said, the new act of faith system is big and flashy, relative to the previous ones, but because it's not really scalable I don't think it's the real star power of the Sororitas: they have three broad categories of weapons and the ability to put lots of them to effect, very few distracting bells and whistles, and a stat-line that results in a points-efficient middle ground between guardsman and space marine.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I would argue the imagifier is probably the best elite the Sororitas have. They're very expensive for what they are but their 50% to generate an act of faith for a nearby unit make them a potentially significant buff for any squad that they don't accidentally trip up.

And what squad would that be?

They can't accompany dominions or seraphim. So basically all they can do is help retributors fire their heavy bolters more often, or make a battle sister squad run a little bit further or fire their boltguns twice. And that's if they're lucky and succeed.

 Melissia wrote:
And what squad would that be?

They can't accompany dominions or seraphim. So basically all they can do is help retributors fire their heavy bolters more often, or make a battle sister squad run a little bit further or fire their boltguns twice. And that's if they're lucky and succeed.

Yes, they don't get to hang off the coat-tails of the very top units in the army, at best they can roll up in a rhino a turn or two later with a handful of apology cards, it's true.

But between effect vs points I still think she's better than the other choices in the elite slot, and you can do a lot worse than buff infantry in an army that has good infantry, in an edition that is much kinder to infantry.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
But between effect vs points I still think she's better than the other choices in the elite slot

... that's really not saying much.