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The problem is not that a unit of conscripts is going to be traded favorably for a DE player. But the fact that he is going to be doing it with 6 raiders to 5-6 units. Maybe for horde armies it could work with spreading etc. But then there would be the problem of DE just being closer to the center objectives, being easily able to move from flank to flank. All while staying outside of LoS . One or two turns of not scoring primaris neds in a lost game in most cases.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Considering the slots one gives up and the fact that even 3 units of suppressors are not going to counter 6 raiders. This is not a question of adapting. All the best players in the US, knew what DE do, they tested it. And it seems like the conclusion was the options are to either lose vs DE, because there is no reliable way to counter them, and have a positive win rate vs other armies, or play DE. This is a dictionery definition of a balance problem. One army having an above 50% win rate vs all armies. All of them, not just marines.
Then take more slots.
Moreover, Raiders are likely going to continue being a very strong unit for the foreseeable future even after nerfs. So yes you are going to need a specific tool against T6 Sv4+. As for the "there is no reliable way to counter them, and have a positive win rate vs other armies", that's a problem of the tournament format and the idiocy of wanting one list to counter everything.
Because sure DE needs nerfs, in that I agree, but DE and Marines are very different targets, and thus logically should have different weaknesses.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 15:53:50
Sure without re-roll but with core rolls or its 7.25D also in some factions they can ignore the -1 to hit, they cot so much b.c they are 12" with fly. Meaning you can stay out of danger with them.
'You have to nail the DE down turn 1, because turn two they are in your face engaging your entire army with shoting and melee. And there is 6 raidders plus support stuff to take care of. how many units of suppressors , assuming one has access to them or something similar in their army, do you think people should take, and how efficient would they be vs stuff like DE soups, SoB, demons or marines etc?
This is not true at all, DE needs 2 turns, you can not get out of the boat turn 1 and charge unless the other player got first and rushed 12" up the mid table. DT flamers might be able to get within range to shoot turn 1 but not melee other than Mandrakes or a suicide reaver unit. Which again the problem is DT. Sometime some units won't get out for 3 turns even.
If you're worried about Raiders, as a DE player here are some marine units I'm afraid of:
-Eradicators
-HB Rapier Carrier
-HB devestator squad
-Hurricane Bolter Centurian (White Scars doubly so)
-Volkite Contemptors
-I'm sure I'm missing other units...
You guys have the tools to bust out the DL Raiders, and frankly they're not all that much different than previous editions. Priced about the same too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 16:06:07
whembly wrote: If you're worried about Raiders, as a DE player here are some marine units I'm afraid of:
-Eradicators
-HB Rapier Carrier
-HB devestator squad
-Hurricane Bolter Centurian (White Scars doubly so)
-Volkite Contemptors
-I'm sure I'm missing other units...
You guys have the tools to bust out the DL Raiders, and frankly they're not all that much different than previous editions. Priced about the same too.
Where are those quad-Autocannon Dreadnoughts when you need 'em?
Although Assault Cannons look like they win out over Autocannons by virtue of the number of shots. 6 at S6 AP-1 edges out 2 at S7 -1 2D. Assault Cannons also happen to be absolutely ideal for dealing with the Raider's inhabitants too.
Ye olde Predator Destructor with its D3 autocannon and dual Heavy Bolters looks nice too.
Eradicators have terrible points efficiency vs raiders and have trouble even hitting them before you want them to because of the 24" range, if you're scared of eradicators as a DE player you need to do the math and realize you should be smiling if you see someone with a bunch of eradicators in their list, not grimacing.
It shows the basic issue, though: there isn't really anything that's particularly efficient at shooting raiders. Real AT is points inefficient, high volume mid-S is actually not nearly as good as it used to be thanks to the boost to T6. Twin volkite contemptors are really one of the only choices that is legitimately scary to DE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 17:06:57
Hahahah what? Heavy erads without the mm upgrade deal 7.5 damage to a raider outside of melta range and with the -1 to hit from moving, with no chapter tactics no rerolls no bonuses no nothing, add any of those, a captain aura, a lieutenant aura, whatever and they ace a raider just fine.
Eradicators don't get nullified by "defensive abilities", you don't survive a fething eradicator squad. They get nullified by fething point cost. You beat them by not presenting a single thing in your entire army list that's a single model worth over ~130 points, which is what these drukhari lists do, and once you do that, you can trade up for eradicators.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Quasistellar wrote: I mean, they’re like 8th edition impulsors but open topped. Imagine if you could have taken the shield dome AND missile for LESS points. Sure 1 less toughness but vs the weapons that target them, t6 vs t7 is not a break point that is worth much.
Oh, and you can carry blood angels inside an iron hands impulsor, and for that “inconvenience”, they give you 2 extra CP.
It just feels like there isn’t any real trade offs in the codex. You get to have your cake, eat it, and still there’s another cake.
Amazing run down.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Quasistellar wrote: I mean, they’re like 8th edition impulsors but open topped. Imagine if you could have taken the shield dome AND missile for LESS points. Sure 1 less toughness but vs the weapons that target them, t6 vs t7 is not a break point that is worth much.
Oh, and you can carry blood angels inside an iron hands impulsor, and for that “inconvenience”, they give you 2 extra CP.
It just feels like there isn’t any real trade offs in the codex. You get to have your cake, eat it, and still there’s another cake.
Amazing run down.
Except for the lack of acknowledgement that the Raider has a 4+ while the Impulsor has a 3+.
whembly wrote: If you're worried about Raiders, as a DE player here are some marine units I'm afraid of:
-Eradicators
-HB Rapier Carrier
-HB devestator squad
-Hurricane Bolter Centurian (White Scars doubly so)
-Volkite Contemptors
-I'm sure I'm missing other units...
You guys have the tools to bust out the DL Raiders, and frankly they're not all that much different than previous editions. Priced about the same too.
Where are those quad-Autocannon Dreadnoughts when you need 'em?
Although Assault Cannons look like they win out over Autocannons by virtue of the number of shots. 6 at S6 AP-1 edges out 2 at S7 -1 2D. Assault Cannons also happen to be absolutely ideal for dealing with the Raider's inhabitants too.
Ye olde Predator Destructor with its D3 autocannon and dual Heavy Bolters looks nice too.
Nah, preds are too overpriced and HBs are S5, you want the new primaris autocannon turret thingy or you want the suppressors if youre going the autocannon route. But MMs are so bonkers underpriced that it actually seems like (to me) they're the superior choice.
2 MM attack bikes in melta range deal 6.5 to a raider with no anything for 110pts. Suppressors do 5.3 for 100, an Invictor Warsuit can deal 5.6 with its shooting and 7 in melee to a second raider for 160 but it's totally dependent on going first.
I dont actually think a list spamming attack bikes is like 'haha, you didn't take options to deal with the drukhari properly, like autocannons'. Autocannons actually deal with them less efficiently, and generally trade a bit worse because you've got single targets that cost 55pts instead of usually around 150pts with the attack bikes.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Yeah, attack bikes are way better than eradicators vs DE (like they are better than eradicators vs almost everything, but moreso). The twin volkite contemptor is still the best, though, not so much because it's better against raiders as because it's good against everything in the DE book, and also has a good defensive profile as well vs most DE stuff.
Ultramarines successor melee army with Born Heroes and Whirlwind of Rage with three invictor warsuits with the autocannons.
That's my starting point for a marine anti-drukhari list. Start those puppies right up on the starting gate 9" away from the pile of Raiders, then if you don't go first take a moment, sigh heavily, cry a single tear, and deploy them farther back with the 2cp strat.
with the chapter tactics combo, each dread should be able to just about one-shot a raider in melee, pile in if you can to the unit inside to get protection from shooting, and the various gunsyguns on the dreads ought to score you another raider and a half. you got 1500pts to figure out how to kill 1.5 more raiders top of turn 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: A lot also forget that the raider is only 6+++ in melee and the flamers can't shoot in melee either.
If they are within 12" of you they are within charging range.
raiders are pretty big and disembark from the hull, though. it's usually pretty easy to prevent a charger from getting in just on the pile in move. If you CAN tag the liquifier squads then fantastic, absolutely do so, it'll limit their impact, but I would avoid considering it to be a core part of your strategy and if you're at the point where you crack them before they've moved, they're basically not your concern anyway, they're out of the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 17:34:26
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
whembly wrote: If you're worried about Raiders, as a DE player here are some marine units I'm afraid of:
-Eradicators
-HB Rapier Carrier
-HB devestator squad
-Hurricane Bolter Centurian (White Scars doubly so)
-Volkite Contemptors
-I'm sure I'm missing other units...
You guys have the tools to bust out the DL Raiders, and frankly they're not all that much different than previous editions. Priced about the same too.
Where are those quad-Autocannon Dreadnoughts when you need 'em?
Although Assault Cannons look like they win out over Autocannons by virtue of the number of shots. 6 at S6 AP-1 edges out 2 at S7 -1 2D. Assault Cannons also happen to be absolutely ideal for dealing with the Raider's inhabitants too.
Ye olde Predator Destructor with its D3 autocannon and dual Heavy Bolters looks nice too.
Nah, preds are too overpriced and HBs are S5, you want the new primaris autocannon turret thingy or you want the suppressors if youre going the autocannon route. But MMs are so bonkers underpriced that it actually seems like (to me) they're the superior choice.
2 MM attack bikes in melta range deal 6.5 to a raider with no anything for 110pts. Suppressors do 5.3 for 100, an Invictor Warsuit can deal 5.6 with its shooting and 7 in melee to a second raider for 160 but it's totally dependent on going first.
I dont actually think a list spamming attack bikes is like 'haha, you didn't take options to deal with the drukhari properly, like autocannons'. Autocannons actually deal with them less efficiently, and generally trade a bit worse because you've got single targets that cost 55pts instead of usually around 150pts with the attack bikes.
I get 2 Attack Bikes landing 7.3 wounds once you count for their Bolters . . . 7.68 If they're in Tactical Doctrine. 8.56 if you charge it afterwards? (4 attacks each?) MVP Attack Bikes for 9th I guess.
It's a good point but I won't be purchasing any Primaris Autocannon Chair. It's true though that the major "expense" is generally the platform rather than the weapon, and Predators certainly cost more. The Predator Autocannon does the same damage as the Primaris Chair itself, so the HBs are kinda gravy. Plus you can mount an HK and Storm Bolter (if you really want to) for cheap. Personally I'm looking for solutions within my collection. Razorbacks, Preds, Dreads, Bikes, Devs, etc.
whembly wrote: If you're worried about Raiders, as a DE player here are some marine units I'm afraid of:
-Eradicators
-HB Rapier Carrier
-HB devestator squad
-Hurricane Bolter Centurian (White Scars doubly so)
-Volkite Contemptors
-I'm sure I'm missing other units...
You guys have the tools to bust out the DL Raiders, and frankly they're not all that much different than previous editions. Priced about the same too.
Where are those quad-Autocannon Dreadnoughts when you need 'em?
Although Assault Cannons look like they win out over Autocannons by virtue of the number of shots. 6 at S6 AP-1 edges out 2 at S7 -1 2D. Assault Cannons also happen to be absolutely ideal for dealing with the Raider's inhabitants too.
Ye olde Predator Destructor with its D3 autocannon and dual Heavy Bolters looks nice too.
Nah, preds are too overpriced and HBs are S5, you want the new primaris autocannon turret thingy or you want the suppressors if youre going the autocannon route. But MMs are so bonkers underpriced that it actually seems like (to me) they're the superior choice.
2 MM attack bikes in melta range deal 6.5 to a raider with no anything for 110pts. Suppressors do 5.3 for 100, an Invictor Warsuit can deal 5.6 with its shooting and 7 in melee to a second raider for 160 but it's totally dependent on going first.
I dont actually think a list spamming attack bikes is like 'haha, you didn't take options to deal with the drukhari properly, like autocannons'. Autocannons actually deal with them less efficiently, and generally trade a bit worse because you've got single targets that cost 55pts instead of usually around 150pts with the attack bikes.
I get 2 Attack Bikes landing 7.3 wounds once you count for their Bolters . . . 7.68 If they're in Tactical Doctrine. 8.56 if you charge it afterwards? (4 attacks each?) MVP Attack Bikes for 9th I guess.
It's a good point but I won't be purchasing any Primaris Autocannon Chair. It's true though that the major "expense" is generally the platform rather than the weapon, and Predators certainly cost more. The Predator Autocannon does the same damage as the Primaris Chair itself, so the HBs are kinda gravy. Plus you can mount an HK and Storm Bolter (if you really want to) for cheap. Personally I'm looking for solutions within my collection. Razorbacks, Preds, Dreads, Bikes, Devs, etc.
Yeah, and you would want to charge it, make it so if it survives the turn it either won't get to shoot or will get to shoot you on a 6, and what's inside has to get out if it wants to act.
dakkapreds not gonna do it if you ask me. Just too crazy overpriced, and its just a dumb brick once they close to melee.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
yukishiro1 wrote: Eradicators have terrible points efficiency vs raiders and have trouble even hitting them before you want them to because of the 24" range, if you're scared of eradicators as a DE player you need to do the math and realize you should be smiling if you see someone with a bunch of eradicators in their list, not grimacing.
It shows the basic issue, though: there isn't really anything that's particularly efficient at shooting raiders. Real AT is points inefficient, high volume mid-S is actually not nearly as good as it used to be thanks to the boost to T6. Twin volkite contemptors are really one of the only choices that is legitimately scary to DE.
I only mentioned eradicators because I was playing against WhiteScars, and he had a 3 man and (I think) 4 man unit. He outflanked them and was able to destroy 3 Raiders in turn 2. I knew they were coming and took the tradeoff, but then my units were stuck footslogging and impacted my game.
But, yeah Twin volkite contemptors are really REALLY good. If I were playing a TAC marine/CSM list, I'd take 3 of them and pay the CP costs. They're that good.
EDIT: just read 2 MM attack bikes are 110pt. Thats definitely a viable option too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 17:51:50
Yeah, and you would want to charge it, make it so if it survives the turn it either won't get to shoot or will get to shoot you on a 6, and what's inside has to get out if it wants to act.
dakkapreds not gonna do it if you ask me. Just too crazy overpriced, and its just a dumb brick once they close to melee.
I agree that the Predator is overpriced, and on bigger boards I'd consider it more because of the range opportunity, but the Primaris Chair looks like a one-shot Dark Lance kill to me I think that the very low Movement on that thing would be a liability too. I would think that there would be some Raiders you'd want to stop first before others, and having only a 3" Move could limit the available targets further.
The Pred can still fire into CC too, so not totally a dumb brick. I do miss the days when tanks could drive through infantry though. . .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 18:08:45
A 33% chance of nullification is 100% nullification, news at 11
Marines moved away from useing eradictors a their anti tank months ago, because they were too slow and too vunerable. But lets assume someone does run them as his anti tank. An army that has to pop 3-4 raiders on turn one, can not risk a 1/3 of chance a squad doing nothing, because even a 1W transport is a problem. To balance the possible 1/3 chance to fail, you would have to run back up extra units, and marines are not point and slot efficient enough to do that right now. So yeah it is a news, and a bad one for marines.
This is not true at all, DE needs 2 turns, you can not get out of the boat turn 1 and charge unless the other player got first and rushed 12" up the mid table. DT flamers might be able to get within range to shoot turn 1 but not melee other than Mandrakes or a suicide reaver unit. Which again the problem is DT. Sometime some units won't get out for 3 turns even.
DE player goes first. I now have one turn to take his transports down, before he starts nuking.
DE players goes second. If I swarm the middle objectivces, assuming I have the speed to do it. The DE player will nuke those units, I will not get to score and it will be just as good, as if the DE player went first. And for DE the units don't get out till turn 3, because the army is so efficient that they often don't have to do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 18:23:34
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Quasistellar wrote: I mean, they’re like 8th edition impulsors but open topped. Imagine if you could have taken the shield dome AND missile for LESS points. Sure 1 less toughness but vs the weapons that target them, t6 vs t7 is not a break point that is worth much.
Oh, and you can carry blood angels inside an iron hands impulsor, and for that “inconvenience”, they give you 2 extra CP.
It just feels like there isn’t any real trade offs in the codex. You get to have your cake, eat it, and still there’s another cake.
Amazing run down.
Except for the lack of acknowledgement that the Raider has a 4+ while the Impulsor has a 3+.
More or less that part is irrelevant. The 5++ save is going to provide more or the same protection to weapons shooting at a t6+ target more often than not. Nether of these units is particularly durable though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The gladiator reaper would be simply amazing against DE....If only it wasn't massively overcosted...had fly instead of not...
Still though.
The main gun does 5.2 damage
The secondaries do 2.4
and the rocket does 1.5
Practically 1 shots a raider plus it's great against everything inside no matter what it is.
I just can't believe GW thought this thing should be 240 points...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 18:45:03
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
It is almost as if GW didn't know that they designed their game in a such a way, that without everything being LoS blocking terrain the game is unfun for everyone not having turn 1 first, and with proper amounts of terrain it is more or less balanced, unless mass flying transports are involved.
There is two armies with those in 9th, 3 if one counts soups, and all are doing above avarge win rate wise. Plus the fact that somehow transports with fly were spared the fate of primaris, IG etc vehicles is a big boon too.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Quasistellar wrote: I mean, they’re like 8th edition impulsors but open topped. Imagine if you could have taken the shield dome AND missile for LESS points. Sure 1 less toughness but vs the weapons that target them, t6 vs t7 is not a break point that is worth much.
Oh, and you can carry blood angels inside an iron hands impulsor, and for that “inconvenience”, they give you 2 extra CP.
It just feels like there isn’t any real trade offs in the codex. You get to have your cake, eat it, and still there’s another cake.
Amazing run down.
Except for the lack of acknowledgement that the Raider has a 4+ while the Impulsor has a 3+.
More or less that part is irrelevant. The 5++ save is going to provide more or the same protection to weapons shooting at a t6+ target more often than not. Nether of these units is particularly durable though.
Lol, I’d trade 3+ for 4+ save 7 days a week and twice on Sunday if I could have a 5++ and fly and open topped. I won’t argue against impulsors being overpriced garbage that were bad before DE dropped, because that’s what they are.
Also FYI folks, space marines winrates seem to be plummeting. You’d better believe that if they had the tools to deal with DE without losing to the field, there’d be tons of players doing it. Eradicators are a boogie man that haven’t been significant for months.
All the “meta will adjust” people VASTLY underestimate how quickly good players adapt. The meta HAS adjusted.
I love the anecdotal story with the DE player that “almost” lost a game vs a good DG tourney player while picking bad secondaries and says essentially that means DE probably aren’t OP. I had a good chuckle.
Most reasonable folks (even DE players) do realize nerfs are needed- the real question is which nerfs.
I disagree with the suggestion of increasing master archon cost. I don’t see any problems there. I also don’t know what should be done with dark technomancers aside from just deleting it because it’s stupid and invalidates other covens.
Karol wrote: It is almost as if GW didn't know that they designed their game in a such a way, that without everything being LoS blocking terrain the game is unfun for everyone not having turn 1 first, and with proper amounts of terrain it is more or less balanced, unless mass flying transports are involved.
There is two armies with those in 9th, 3 if one counts soups, and all are doing above avarge win rate wise. Plus the fact that somehow transports with fly were spared the fate of primaris, IG etc vehicles is a big boon too.
Maybe there is too much Obscuring and not enough Barricades on tables so you can't hide 100% of all fly vehicles and if you are charged you can hold positions for +1 to hit (in OW or melee) and a +1 to saves also in combat for a 2+ save marine or 1+ for SH's and Custodes while having -2" to charges.
Its almost like GW was smarter than the community this time saying you need a bit of a spread of terrain.
Edit: spelling.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 19:00:53
Are people still saying that we should wait and see or that we just need to get good? The Drukhari took the top five spots at the Dallas GT (the basis for the Goonhammer article posted a few pages back). This was a large multi-round event.
Just saying.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
Karol wrote: It is almost as if GW didn't know that they designed their game in a such a way, that without everything being LoS blocking terrain the game is unfun for everyone not having turn 1 first, and with proper amounts of terrain it is more or less balanced, unless mass flying transports are involved.
There is two armies with those in 9th, 3 if one counts soups, and all are doing above avarge win rate wise. Plus the fact that somehow transports with fly were spared the fate of primaris, IG etc vehicles is a big boon too.
ooh, ooh, let me guess which broken flying transports you're talking about, uhhhh.....Space wolves!
no no no, Tau!
no, Craftworld Eldar, right?
IG?
Admech?
Grey Knights?
gosh, its almost like tons of factions have transports with FLY huh - if that's the case, how is the fact that they fly the thing that makes them broken do you figure?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Karol wrote: It is almost as if GW didn't know that they designed their game in a such a way, that without everything being LoS blocking terrain the game is unfun for everyone not having turn 1 first, and with proper amounts of terrain it is more or less balanced, unless mass flying transports are involved.
There is two armies with those in 9th, 3 if one counts soups, and all are doing above avarge win rate wise. Plus the fact that somehow transports with fly were spared the fate of primaris, IG etc vehicles is a big boon too.
ooh, ooh, let me guess which broken flying transports you're talking about, uhhhh.....Space wolves!
no no no, Tau!
no, Craftworld Eldar, right?
IG?
Admech?
Grey Knights?
gosh, its almost like tons of factions have transports with FLY huh - if that's the case, how is the fact that they fly the thing that makes them broken do you figure?
Its almost like the issue is price...which it is. Storm Raven would be straight baller if it wasn't over 300 points LOL.
Karol wrote: It is almost as if GW didn't know that they designed their game in a such a way, that without everything being LoS blocking terrain the game is unfun for everyone not having turn 1 first, and with proper amounts of terrain it is more or less balanced, unless mass flying transports are involved.
There is two armies with those in 9th, 3 if one counts soups, and all are doing above avarge win rate wise. Plus the fact that somehow transports with fly were spared the fate of primaris, IG etc vehicles is a big boon too.
Maybe there is too much Obscuring and not enough Barricades on tables so you can't hide 100% of all fly vehicles and if you are charged you can hold positions for +1 to hit (in OW or melee) and a +1 to saves also in combat for a 2+ save marine or 1+ for SH's and Custodes while having -2" to charges.
Its almost like GW was smarter than the community this time saying you need a bit of a spread of terrain.
Edit: spelling.
Terrain is certainly an issue - terrain should be random. Not regulated. Some should be dense - some sparce. Then we could get somewhere. Mandatory city fight terrain makes melee to strong. Because for some dumb reason - this games rule dictate that it should be easier to move through walls than shoot through them and OFC...terrain is indestructable...that is another issue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 19:10:55
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Quasistellar wrote: I mean, they’re like 8th edition impulsors but open topped. Imagine if you could have taken the shield dome AND missile for LESS points. Sure 1 less toughness but vs the weapons that target them, t6 vs t7 is not a break point that is worth much.
Oh, and you can carry blood angels inside an iron hands impulsor, and for that “inconvenience”, they give you 2 extra CP.
It just feels like there isn’t any real trade offs in the codex. You get to have your cake, eat it, and still there’s another cake.
Amazing run down.
Except for the lack of acknowledgement that the Raider has a 4+ while the Impulsor has a 3+.
More or less that part is irrelevant. The 5++ save is going to provide more or the same protection to weapons shooting at a t6+ target more often than not. Nether of these units is particularly durable though.
Just sayin. If you're going to note the difference in toughness between the two units, not mentioning the armor stands out. Small arms can make a difference when dealing with vehicles these days. My Nids can get good AT numbers by sheer volume of Devourer shots, and a point of difference in the armor counts. A squad of 30 DevilGaunts puts 9 wounds on a Raider instead of 6 because of the 4+.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 20:05:38
Nah, preds are too overpriced and HBs are S5, you want the new primaris autocannon turret thingy or you want the suppressors if youre going the autocannon route. But MMs are so bonkers underpriced that it actually seems like (to me) they're the superior choice.
2 MM attack bikes in melta range deal 6.5 to a raider with no anything for 110pts. Suppressors do 5.3 for 100, an Invictor Warsuit can deal 5.6 with its shooting and 7 in melee to a second raider for 160 but it's totally dependent on going first.
I dont actually think a list spamming attack bikes is like 'haha, you didn't take options to deal with the drukhari properly, like autocannons'. Autocannons actually deal with them less efficiently, and generally trade a bit worse because you've got single targets that cost 55pts instead of usually around 150pts with the attack bikes.
The problem with bikes is that DL aces them. I actually quite like the way things are set up. Eradicators are stronger and tougher. Bikes are more flexible.
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the_scotsman wrote: then if you don't go first take a moment, sigh heavily, cry a single tear, and deploy them farther back with the 2cp strat.
This is the kind of thinking I like.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 20:04:39
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
. . . 7.68 If they're in Tactical Doctrine. 8.56 if you charge it afterwards? (4 attacks each?) MVP Attack Bikes for 9th I guess.
