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Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I think people have a tendency to compare Custodes to the latest hotness. It's hard seeing everyone get super awesome buffs and shiney new models. But they would LOVE to have a 4++ on everything they own, or a 5++ on all their vehicles. Or access to a 4+++ stock standard. We have some incredibly good stuff. Do we have the new magna rail cannons? No. But they don't have a Telemon Dread, the best non-knight walker in the game. Yet.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think people have a tendency to compare Custodes to the latest hotness. It's hard seeing everyone get super awesome buffs and shiney new models. But they would LOVE to have a 4++ on everything they own, or a 5++ on all their vehicles. Or access to a 4+++ stock standard. We have some incredibly good stuff. Do we have the new magna rail cannons? No. But they don't have a Telemon Dread, the best non-knight walker in the game. Yet.

They can actually get the 4++/5++ on everything with one of their Traits.
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






A telemon doesnt look so hot these days. When was the last time one was used anywhere serious?

How about a AoC 2+ T9 Transport with S14 gun that ignores invuls and shuts off wound rerolls for 30 pts less than a basic telemon?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/07 16:19:56


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Tiberias wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.


We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.

The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.

To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.

Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.


Custodes are not fine competitively. They're boring and, frankly, gak into the factions that can actually win tournaments.


Imo you can only make that argument regarding actual tournament wins. Considering the comp winrate of custodes in nephilim, the faction is fine...well if you only consider the winrate metric, imo the faction is not fine especially regarding internal balance and realized faction fantasy on the tabletop.


TiWP is more important.

I mean you can make a strong competitive list and bash all the more casual gamers in your group with near any army. But if you really want to talk competition, you have to talk how often you are pulling wins against the actual good armies.

   
Made in dk
Regular Dakkanaut




 Thairne wrote:
A telemon doesnt look so hot these days. When was the last time one was used anywhere serious?

How about a AoC 2+ T9 Transport with S14 gun that ignores invuls and shuts off wound rerolls for 30 pts less than a basic telemon?


space dwarves?
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

My main area of salt is our durability, specifically our infantry.

They upped the AP of nearly all armies across the board, realised this just hosed armies build around good armour save so introduced AoC..... on everything but Custodes, the most elite of armoured dudes.

Most weapons take us to a 4++ and doing three wounds through that is pretty trivial given the restrictions to our defensive strats.
A 4++ in itself is good but most armies in the now name have access to an army wide invuln so its nothing special.

Add to that the removal of Obsec from all our not troop infantry and the army only really works now by taking mass dreads.

The issue is that mass dreads is still good so they are unlikely to un-nerf us if they just look at win rates, where as what all the nerfs mainly did was make most of the codex irrelevant :-(

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/08 11:49:11


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Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Scoundrel80 wrote:
 Thairne wrote:
A telemon doesnt look so hot these days. When was the last time one was used anywhere serious?

How about a AoC 2+ T9 Transport with S14 gun that ignores invuls and shuts off wound rerolls for 30 pts less than a basic telemon?


space dwarves?


Yes, Votann Land Fortress with a specific subfaction that gives everything +1T.

Heavy 1, S14 -4 2D3+6 ignore invul.
AoC 2+ T9 16W no wRRs

230 pts.

For added fun, if you auto wound with judgement tokens or roll a 6, it basically causes MW as they spill over just like MWs do.
So with character support which can turn any wound roll into a 6..... and there's a strat that causes it to auto hit.
So, auto hit, auto wound, 10 MW on average. And that is before the other guns of the thing start shooting. Wipes out a unit of Guard or a Dreadnought without a single dice rolled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WisdomLS wrote:
My main area of salt is our durability, specifically our infantry.

They upped the AP of nearly all armies across the board, realised this just hosed armies build around good armour save so introduced AoC..... on everything but Custodes, the most elite of armoured dudes.

Most weapons take us to a 4++ and doing three wounds through that is pretty trivial given the restrictions to our defensive strats.
A 4++ in itself is good but most armies in the now name have access to an army wide invuln so its nothing special.

Add to that the removal of Obsec from all our not troop infantry and the army only really works now by taking mass dreads.

The issue is that mass dreads is still good so they are unlikely to un-nerf us if they just look at win rates, where as what all the nerfs mainly did was make most of the codex irrelevant :-(


This is the cold, hard truth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/08 17:43:04


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To be fair, most units in most codexes are irrelevant. I'd say the Custodes book is above average in terms of percentage of usable units.
   
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artific3r wrote:
To be fair, most units in most codexes are irrelevant. I'd say the Custodes book is above average in terms of percentage of usable units.

That's not the feat you think it is when you realize the codex itself is like 8 units LOL
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Well lets just take a kinda subjective look at if a unit is relevant in GT play.

Trajann
Bike Captain
Custodian Guard
Sagittarum Guard

Achillus Dreadnaught
Galatus Dreadnought
Ven Contemptor Dreadnought

Vertus Praetors
Caladius Grav Tank

thats 9 sheets out of 33. Thats 27% relevance.
If that isnt poor, I dont know... You can nudge the number up a bit with fringe cases, but thats really, really poor, especially in such a small range in the first place. That just speaks of TERRIBLE internal balance if 73% if your units are not relevant.


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I'd also include telemon dreads, prosecutors, vexilus praetors, allarus terminator captains, allarus terminators, venatari, and pallas grav-attacks. All of these have appeared in a top 4 placing list in the past 3-4 months.

That brings it up to 16 datasheets, which is roughly half of the codex. Hard to think of another faction where 50% of its units are represented in top 4 tournament lists. Harlequins I guess. Probably knights? Not to mention the fact that several factions can barely break top 4 at all, whereas Custodes show up pretty consistently.

If Custodes is your only army I can understand that having a bunch of irrelevant units in your book feels bad. But if you've actually played other factions you'd know that Custodes have it better off than most.
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Oh I play admech.
I know how it feels to have half of the codex being so non viable you cant even bring it in narrative games.

While I'd despute your additions, especially after the obsec nerf, there's always proof and some list that won somewhere. Not meaning it as an insult, just that the definition of "irrelevance" can be very subjective

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artific3r wrote:
I'd also include telemon dreads, prosecutors, vexilus praetors, allarus terminator captains, allarus terminators, venatari, and pallas grav-attacks. All of these have appeared in a top 4 placing list in the past 3-4 months.

That brings it up to 16 datasheets, which is roughly half of the codex. Hard to think of another faction where 50% of its units are represented in top 4 tournament lists. Harlequins I guess. Probably knights? Not to mention the fact that several factions can barely break top 4 at all, whereas Custodes show up pretty consistently.

If Custodes is your only army I can understand that having a bunch of irrelevant units in your book feels bad. But if you've actually played other factions you'd know that Custodes have it better off than most.


Yoou could add those, but you would be wrong to. They're mostly not very good.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Honestly, how did we end up in a state where a datasheet like the Telemon is considered not that good anymore? Really makes you think about power creep.

Terminators are definitely not among the viable units in comp play, so is the terminator captain. Venatari haven't seen real play since we've lost our double shoot stratagem. Agamatus Custodes are just laughable since GW can't even be bothered to update them to the standard of the codex jetbikes.

So yeah, internal balance seems pretty bleak no matter the angle you look at it. At least terminators and wardens were useful before the dataslate.

   
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I actually Terminators got a little more viable thanks to Squats to getting the spillover wounds with those guns. Unleash The Lions makes them far less efficient.

Not SUPER viable but it's an option.
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

Forgeworld units are very hit and miss as to whether they are balanced or not - GW doesn't seem to care about them so its just random luck in my view.

The codex units on the other hand should be at least semi viable, the issue they have is that they f'ed up the dataslate and removed one of the core rules our book was written around - "Obsec infantry". Removing that made wardens and terminators completely pointless as Guard could do very similar things to those units but cheaper and with obsec.

Unlike other codexs we didn't have any obsec ticks worked into our relics or Traits as we had an army rule to cover it, removing it forced us into using the dreads and tanks that were already the best things in the army and also things that didn't have it in the first place.

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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Sadly, one of the worst paradoxes of Custodes is that because they are SO small and limited in their codex, any small change has massive consquences and rippling effects. A Change to axes affects almost 1/3 of the codex. A change to spears affects half. So it's hard to minutely alter the game when it comes to custodes.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Terminators, telemons, and venatari are all absolutely viable in competitive play.

Are they all auto-take units? No. Have they all shown up in a top-4 placing list at a GT-level event in the past 3 months? Yes, absolutely they have.

Should we just ignore tournament data when talking about competitive viability? Martin Nielsen's 2nd place finish at Midtcon GT just doesn't count? Or Henry Lam's 2nd place finish at Bogota GT? I suppose these guys must have just got lucky, because according to randos on dakka they are running "irrelevant" and "unviable' units.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/14 18:30:53


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




You have to, HAVE TO, consider the factors in each "Tournament finish". Just because it was a tournament doesn't mean it was the competitive equivalent (based around average player skill) of say, Adepticon or LVO. 1st place at that event was Orks. ORKS. Are we saying orks are in a better place than us? It gets worse as you go down the list. Necrons were top 10. Are they suddenly the new hotness? No. Custodes are competitive, and capable of being highly played, but Custodes in a total vaccum cannot beat Votann or most of the new creepers. Their weakest tank is more then our mightiest unit.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Not trying to be rude, but it seems pretty reasonable to assume that Martin Nielsen's take on Custodes is a lot more credible than yours. (Or mine, for that matter.)

Unless you are out there winning GTs, your opinions on unit viability are really limited to your own personal, casual meta. If you want to use this thread to complain about unit performance in your casual meta, fine. But let's not pretend that actual competitive custodes players don't exist. They do, and they're utilizing roughly half of the available datasheets in the book, which is undeniably above average compared to other factions.
   
Made in us
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I just wanted to point out the sillyness of slicing off one random tournament and claiming that it represents the Meta.

Orks won the entire tournament. Orks are the best faction in the game now I guess. Nothing else to see here, unless.....extremely small subsets of data are extremely unlikely to represent the entirety of the wider narrative? Is that possibly the case?
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You have to, HAVE TO, consider the factors in each "Tournament finish". Just because it was a tournament doesn't mean it was the competitive equivalent (based around average player skill) of say, Adepticon or LVO. 1st place at that event was Orks. ORKS. Are we saying orks are in a better place than us? It gets worse as you go down the list. Necrons were top 10. Are they suddenly the new hotness? No. Custodes are competitive, and capable of being highly played, but Custodes in a total vaccum cannot beat Votann or most of the new creepers. Their weakest tank is more then our mightiest unit.


Necrons actually are the new hotness
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




stratigo wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You have to, HAVE TO, consider the factors in each "Tournament finish". Just because it was a tournament doesn't mean it was the competitive equivalent (based around average player skill) of say, Adepticon or LVO. 1st place at that event was Orks. ORKS. Are we saying orks are in a better place than us? It gets worse as you go down the list. Necrons were top 10. Are they suddenly the new hotness? No. Custodes are competitive, and capable of being highly played, but Custodes in a total vaccum cannot beat Votann or most of the new creepers. Their weakest tank is more then our mightiest unit.


Necrons actually are the new hotness


Damn, I've been away from the game for a hot minute and the entire meta goes bonkers. F everything I said. I give up trying to understand the Meta.
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Necrons are at 53% and the most played faction rn... followed by tyranids with 59%, CSM at 48% and SoB at 54%

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Winrates only matter when you stomping pubs

Necrons regularly win major tournaments. Silent king expansionist is the army to heat in the current meta. Other cron lists, not so much.
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I thought it was still SoB, Nids, and Chaos. I have no clue where the meta is, obviously. My only point is to say we are "competitive" because of one single sample is highly misleading.

I do agree that we are still competitive, just not 2nd place level competitive.
   
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Bids are probably number one overall because there’s a bunch of ways to play and tailor them still and top tournaments. Crons expansionist is number two. Number three likely is still clowns
   
Made in cz
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I am unsure how it's possible thse LoV stat lines are shipping in this state. Custodes should be 22 ppm now if all our defenses are pointless, Invulns don't matter, cover doesn't matter, and FNP doesn't matter.
   
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Just to chip in, is it right to say a unit is weak because there is a small selection of weapons that are efficient at killing them? Custodian guard certainly don't like high ROF, mid ap, D3 weapons, but how many armies can really bring that en mass.

Unless GW is handing it out too casually (and yes, i know they have a tendency to do so) it should be on maybe 2 or 3 units in an enemies army, meaning you can try and take out those priority targets first or try to trade units to put you in a better position later in the game.

Yes LOV are pretty damn strong right now, but I think most people are expecting them to get a nerf sooner rather than later. Be it adjustments in points or the dataslate changing how some things interact. Maybe their railguns will only be able to spill over onto a second model or something. To represent it penetrating one dude then clipping another, more realistic than a unit conga lining.

On a one on one level most custodes are still pretty tough and decently killy.
   
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cody.d. wrote:
Just to chip in, is it right to say a unit is weak because there is a small selection of weapons that are efficient at killing them? Custodian guard certainly don't like high ROF, mid ap, D3 weapons, but how many armies can really bring that en mass.

Unless GW is handing it out too casually (and yes, i know they have a tendency to do so) it should be on maybe 2 or 3 units in an enemies army, meaning you can try and take out those priority targets first or try to trade units to put you in a better position later in the game.

Yes LOV are pretty damn strong right now, but I think most people are expecting them to get a nerf sooner rather than later. Be it adjustments in points or the dataslate changing how some things interact. Maybe their railguns will only be able to spill over onto a second model or something. To represent it penetrating one dude then clipping another, more realistic than a unit conga lining.

On a one on one level most custodes are still pretty tough and decently killy.

One on one model level does not matter LOL. Points do.
   
 
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