Eldar Jetbike Effectiveness versus other troop choices.

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**Hellfury**

In the dire avenger numbers thread, Jetbikes are remarked to be the better choice when compared to dire avengers.

If this is truly the case, what would the optimum number of hjetbikes be? Min max of three with shuricannon and spearlock? Or maybe add up to 6?

Any thoughts on this?

**Sgt_Scruffy**

min-max... cheap, small enough to hide behind terrain and jet still somewhat resilient. The spearlock isn't a bad idea and giving him destructor (while expensive) would make the unit a nice little anti-infantry squad.

**Blackmoor**

3 Guardian Jetbikes (66 points)

12”=6 shots 4.5 hits 2.25 wounds= .75 dead MEQ

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/1 Shuriken Cannon (76 points)

12”= 4 shots, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds= .5 dead MEQ

24”= 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds= .41 Dead MEQ

Total=.91 Dead MEQ

6 Guardian Jetbikes (132 points)

12”= 12 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds

Total=.91 Dead MEQ

6 Guardian Jetbikes w/2 Shuriken Cannon (152 points)

12”= 8 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds= 1 dead MEQ

24”= 6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds= .83 Dead MEQ

Total=1.83 Dead MEQ

Point note: With warlock add 45 points.

**skyth**

I'd say 3 man with cannon plus warlock with spear and conceal

Makes it a even number unit (Always better for scoring purposes).

Gives it a cover save, gives it anti-armor capability.

Plus with the assault move from the jetbike makes it nice

**Blackmoor**

So for 152 points you have:

9 Dire Avengers w/Exarch with 2 Shuriken Catapults and Bladestorm (152 points)

Squad=27 shots, 18 hits, 9 wounds=3 dead MEQs

Exarch=5 Shots, 4.16 hits, 2.08 wounds=.69 dead MEQs

Total=3.69 dead MEQs

VS.

6 Guardian Jetbikes w/2 Shuriken Cannons (152 points)

12”= 8 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds= 1 dead MEQ

24”= 6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds= .83 Dead MEQ

Total=1.83 Dead MEQ

There are of course tradeoffs. Numbers vs. mobility and toughness. <strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> [/b]

**Flavius Infernus**

I like the idea of 1 or 2 units to take out the basilisk/whirlwind in the back corner. A singing spear, even if the warlock misses the toss, can still be used in an assault to take down a walker or ground vehicle.

Conceal feels like a waste--either turboboost for the 3+ invulnerable, or use your mobility and assault move to stay out of sight. Embolden is cheap and saves you against a bad roll (pinning too) or fear of the darkness. Destructor makes the unit into an effective troop-rooter-outer.

I've seen minmaxed lists that try to use all jetbikes replacing all other troops, but I don't think that's viable. Sure they are fast and can stay away from most shooting (except indirect, fury, vibrocannons, or something mobile like a speeder), but with only a shuriken cannon they also can't do very much offensively. They can reach objectives but can't hold them.

**Longshot**

Jetbikes weren't really viable before because they cost 50% more points. Now they are.

What Blackmoor didn't post is that the dire avengers shoot once killing 3.69 dead meqs, then don't shoot again for a turn. The jetbikes shoot every turn.

T4 with the 6" assault move is going to be the clincher there. You can get into spear range and chuck, then back off 6" behind terrain. That rocks.

**Blackmoor**

9 Dire Avengers with an Exarch with two shuriken catapults & Wave Serpent w/Starcannon+Spirit Stones(272 Points)
Squad=18 shots, 12 will hit and 6 will wound = 2 dead MEQs

Exarch=4 shots, 3.3 will hit, 1.66 will wound= .55 dead MEQs

Wave Serpent =2 Shots, 1.5 will hit, 1.25 wounds= 1.25 dead MEQs

Shuriken Catapults .25 dead MEQ

Total= 4.05 dead MEQs

Vs.

11 Jetbikes (272 Points)

4 Guardian Jetbikes w/1 Shuriken Cannon (98 points)

12”= 6 shots, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds= .75 dead MEQ

24”= 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds= .41 Dead MEQ

Total=1.16 Dead MEQ

4 Guardian Jetbikes w/1 Shuriken Cannon (98 points)

12”= 6 shots, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds= .75 dead MEQ

24”= 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds= .41 Dead MEQ

Total=1.16 Dead MEQ

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/1 Shuriken Catapult (76 points)

12”= 4 shots, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds= .5 dead MEQ

24”= 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds= .41 Dead MEQ

Total=.91 Dead MEQ

Total=3.23 Dead MEQs

**Blackmoor**

10 Dire Avengers w/Wave Serpent w/Shruiken Cannon & Spirit Stones (230 Points)

20 Shots, 13.33 hit, 6.66 wound, 2.22 Dead MEQs

Wave Serpent =3 Shots, 2.25 will hit, 1.87 wounds= .62 dead MEQs

Shuriken Catapults .25 dead MEQ

Total= 3.09

Vs

9 Jetbikes (228 Points)

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/1 Shuriken Catapult (76 points)

12”= 4 shots, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds= .5 dead MEQ

24”= 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds= .41 Dead MEQ

Total=.91 Dead MEQ

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/1 Shuriken Catapult (76 points)

12”= 4 shots, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds= .5 dead MEQ

24”= 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds= .41 Dead MEQ

Total=.91 Dead MEQ

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/1 Shuriken Catapult (76 points)

12”= 4 shots, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds= .5 dead MEQ

24”= 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds= .41 Dead MEQ

Total=.91 Dead MEQ

Total= 2.73 Dead MEQs

**Longshot**

So you get a very slight edge, but wind up with a 110pt tank that doesn't score and can be shaken.

Eh, I still don't buy it. Dire avengers have a 4+ save and T3.

They are slightly (very slightly) killier, but much more vulnerable, and not as fast/tactically flexible (with the 12" 6" especially).

**Longshot**

As far as what jetbikes to take, I would go with one of these three templates:

3 x jetbikes with shuriken cannon (76pts)

3 x jetbikes with shuriken cannon, warlock with embolden and singing spear (129pts)

6 jetbikes with 2 shuriken cannons (152pts)

Depends on what you need really. If you're running a bunch of fire dragons in falcons, running the 6 man squads of jetbikes becomes really attractive because it's a ton of tough dudes for cheap and lots of anti-troop firepower.

**Blackmoor**

Alot of people were saying that jetbikes so much better, and a no-brainer choice. They are better do to their speed (and special movements), toughness, and save.

But Dire Avengers are a good troops choice that can perform well on the table top.

**ender502**

DA are also heavy bolter bait.

I'd go with the bikes just for the speed and the ability to potentially neutralize "behind the line" threats (whirlwind, mortars, defilers, bassies, etc...) that are actuall dangerous to eldar's T3.

ender502

**Longshot**

DA are no better than before really. They got a little bit of offensive power but they still are too slow and vulnerable to be counted upon to hold objectives or really spend much time shooting.

Why buy a slow, vulnerable troop choice when you can buy a fast resilient one?

I'm not going to say there's no situation you should buy DA's. Some mechanized lists call for the wave serpents (but really you should be takin those in your elite slots and getting jetbikes for troops, imho).

No one should be excited about taking a T3 4+ save troop choice though. It's OK at killing space marines, but takes a chunk of your army's points that could be filled with longer ranged faster antitroop or filled with tank popping.

**Flavius Infernus**

It seems like kind of an artificial question to ask which is better, bikes or DAs, since their battlefield roles are so completely different. If the question is really "which should I totally max out on: bikes or DAs," then I think the answer is "neither." They are troop choices and comparatively cheap (compared with other Eldar units, I mean), so take them both and use them for different things.

Also I think it's important to make a distinction between transported and walking DA units. Walking DA units will not compare favorably against anything else in the army list--they will get the crap shot out of them before they can accomplish anything. Transported DA units are the ones to compare with bikes. They are just as fast (faster with star engines), completely impervious to everything less than str6, and highly vulnerable to certain other things.

Also I notice the debate zeroed in pretty fast on bikes vs. DA with guardians and rangers as troop choices pretty much written off from the beginning.

**Longshot**

Guardians with minsize of 10 are worthless mostly. If they could have two weapons platforms, or one per 10, then squads of 20 guardians with conceal would be OK. Too bad, so sad

Rangers really don't do anything that jetbikes can't do (except Ap1 shooting, which is neat). Conclusion I think on rangers is that if you take them they should be upgraded to pathfinders. Increases durability and offense a lot for not too many points.

I don't know about Avengers. I can see kind of the point behind using them to get waveserpents, but the serpent is the only thing that attracts me to them at all. And the serpent is kind of, ehn? for the points, even with stones and vectored engines or what not.

JSJing bikes are awesome also. There's a lot of power there that people aren't seeing in practice yet because eldar jetbikes before were too expensive so no one used them.

Give it a few months and I don't think you'll see any good players using dire avengers much. Maybe really small squads?

**Flavius Infernus**

Also I keep forgetting that 10 Wraithguard can be taken as a troop choice too. There's a report in the battle reports forum that suggests a huge footslogging unit of wraithguard with fortune and conceal on it can soak up a lot of firepower. In that batrep they just basically walked up and camped the objective.

Of course, the minimum cost for the size 10 unit (with required spiritseer) and conceal is about 400 points.

**Blackmoor**

Well, we were talking about Dire Avengers, and then Jetbikes. I didn't think this was an eldar troops tactics thread, but my $.02 is...

I think guardians are aweful.

Wraithguard are bad as well. Sure they are tough and durable, but they are a whole lot of points for a unit that only moves 6" and can shoot 12".

You can make the argument that Ranger/Pathfinders are viable. I think they are a good unit that can be taken in small numbers.

**malfred**

Maybe making Guardians awful is the fix to "dying race of Guardians" issue

**Hellfury**

I would agree with that.

**Mahu**

I don't think there is any definative no-brainer Eldar troop choices. Let's look at this:

Bikes:

Pros
Fast
T4
3+ Save

Cons
Low model count
Low damage effectiveness

DAs:

Pros
Possible high rate of fire
Longer threat range than Gaurdians
Double the amount of models compared to bikes
Can take a wave serpent

Cons
Fragile to return fire

Gaurdians

Pros
Can field higher numbers
Can take support weapons
Benifits from Warlock upgrades

Cons
Even more fragile

Rangers

Pros
Extremely resiliant in cover
Infiltrate
Possible AP1 shot

Cons
Low number of shots

So I really think it depends on your army composition. Bikes, though they are more survivable, probably have the least amount of kill potential. Gaurdians and DA can take Wave Serpents which are highly survivable and protects the unit inside. I know that our local Eldar player has been testing all the different troop combinations and is currently settling on Defenders in Wave Serpents.

**GrimTeef**

In my first game with the new codex, the DAs were a standout unit for me. They were fast enough on foot and long-ranged enough to get the job done. They benefitted from Doom a lot more than the Bikes did that I used. The DAs Bladestormed a unit of Arco-flaggelants, remving 3 out of 6 I beleive, then 2 the next turn, then knocked out the one that made it into HtH before he could swing.

The Jetbikes did okay, but I think they would have done better with some Farseer support. The small model count really hurts them - once you lose one, that's a Ld check. They need a cannon, obviously, to get anything accomplished. And if you are using the range of the cannon, that's Jetbikes that aren't contributing their weight of fire at all.

With TL Catapults and a 24" threat range, they hit a bit better (or the same) as DAs for the same threat range, but the cannon drops their killing potential a bit because you want to use it to keep them out of harm's reach. Least I did.

**Mahu**

I will probably use a unit of DA's in a Wave Serpent and a unit of Bikes as my Compulsory Troop Choices.

**keezus**

I feel that your comparisons of DA and bikes is fundamentally flawed: I don't have the codex, but to me, these two options are roughly equal.

9x Bikes w/ 3x Cannon + Spear, Embolden or Enhance, Warlock = 273 +/-5??

10x Avengers inc. Exarch w/ 2 SC, Bladestorm, Waveserpent = 272

- With this in mind, the bikes are much better, since it is very resilient vs. reduction below scoring due to the need to remove 6 bike models. As well, you get to fire every turn. OTOH, you don't have the vehicle mounted heavy weapon, but to me, that's a reasonable tradeoff.

I also don't see the WS as being such a huge advantage, as it doesn't score, and the penalties for shooting it down are "dire" indeed for the occupants.

I've learned that unless the squad is really small, to fill the compulsory choices, its better to go large or go home. I think that this is necessary for the Troops bike squads. Also, if you mount up a lot of your army, it will cause a lot of grief for enemy targetting purposes. Fortuned bikes by a bikeseer are retardedly durable the turn they turboboost.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Posted By GrimTeef on 11/06/2006 6:03 AM
The DAs Bladestormed a unit of Arco-flaggelants, remving 3 out of 6 I beleive, then 2 the next turn, then knocked out the one that made it into HtH before he could swing.

I hope you didn't use the same unit of DAs to kill 3 with bladestorm and kill 2 the next turn, because DAs can't shoot the turn after they use bladestorm.

**Banesword**

So they pay to shoot less over two turns?

**Hellfury**

Well thats not the point with DA

if they werent able to use a third shot, then this would occur:

shoot 2 str 4 shots, assault with 2 str 3 attacks.

now they shoot 3 str 4 shots and assault with 2 str 3 attacks.

It makes the short range firefight even more deadly if your close to the enemy.

Or if the enemy is out of 12" range on your turn, chances are they wont be able to assault on their turn, so three shots is a good choice to make.

DA are quite good to have if used right, like most things eldar.

Jetbikes also have an effective 18" range, you just have to be sneaky in how you use your assault move. Jetbikes in city fight are arguably better in many ways to DA because of the hidden assault move. I think it is a pretty balanced trade off on paper.

**Mahu**

Posted By keezus on 11/06/2006 8:31 AM
I feel that your comparisons of DA and bikes is fundamentally flawed: I don't have the codex, but to me, these two options are roughly equal.

9x Bikes w/ 3x Cannon + Spear, Embolden or Enhance, Warlock = 273 +/-5??

10x Avengers inc. Exarch w/ 2 SC, Bladestorm, Waveserpent = 272

- With this in mind, the bikes are much better, since it is very resilient vs. reduction below scoring due to the need to remove 6 bike models. As well, you get to fire every turn. OTOH, you don't have the vehicle mounted heavy weapon, but to me, that's a reasonable tradeoff.

I also don't see the WS as being such a huge advantage, as it doesn't score, and the penalties for shooting it down are "dire" indeed for the occupants.

I've learned that unless the squad is really small, to fill the compulsory choices, its better to go large or go home. I think that this is necessary for the Troops bike squads. Also, if you mount up a lot of your army, it will cause a lot of grief for enemy targetting purposes. Fortuned bikes by a bikeseer are retardedly durable the turn they turboboost.

I played three games with the new Eldar codex Saturday with roughly the same list, but I only lost a Wave Serpent once, and by then they have done their job.

I think people underestimate the Wave Serpents Survivability. People go on about Fortuned Turbo-boasted bikes, but you have to realize unless you are taking more than one Farseer, you powers are usually going towards units that can actually kill stuff. Toughness 4 and a 3+ save means nothing if you are constantly taking saves from shooting, or are cought in close combat. The Wave Serpent saves you squad from being shoot at until they come out of your terms.

I think to many people play Eldar with the MEQ mindset. you are not going to find very many resiliant units, and if you do, those units are not going to have the straight up kill potential to be 100% effective. You need to co-ordinate your attacks and play a very combined arms force.

**Mahu**

Posted By Banesword on 11/06/2006 8:36 AM
So they pay to shoot less over two turns?

Well you sacrifice your shooting for the following turn, but the choice to Bladestorm will usually come the turn you disambarch which you will need every shot availible. Then next turn, re-embark and fly off.

**GrimTeef**

No, you're right, I didn't do that in game, I got mixed up. I must have done it the other way around, as my opponent knew their rules as well and would have corrected me.