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 frozenwastes wrote:
So a 12 year old and his friend happen to find themselves in a games store and think the miniatures on the wall are awesome. One of them really likes the space marines and another things the necron guys are pretty cool.

So they each grab a box and head to the register. They tell the person they want to play this cool game. He goes on to tell them that they'll need a copy of the rulebook and a codex each for the rules they will need.

--- The future ---

So they each grab a box and head to the register. They tell the person they want to play this cool game. He goes on to tell them that the rules are free and they can find the free dataslate inside the box and online for the stats for their models.

After Age of Sigmar happened many people predicted the coming of the Age of the Emperor. They were reminded though that 40k was doing great in terms of sales and Warhammer Fantasy was struggling. So they'd never do the same thing with 40k.

Unless there was another reason. A means of making the product even more accessible to the next generation of gamers. With even less barriers to entry.

Very true.

But AoS was just a test, this is for real

morgoth wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
So a 12 year old and his friend happen to find themselves in a games store and think the miniatures on the wall are awesome. One of them really likes the space marines and another things the necron guys are pretty cool.

So they each grab a box and head to the register. They tell the person they want to play this cool game. He goes on to tell them that they'll need a copy of the rulebook and a codex each for the rules they will need.

--- The future ---

So they each grab a box and head to the register. They tell the person they want to play this cool game. He goes on to tell them that the rules are free and they can find the free dataslate inside the box and online for the stats for their models.

After Age of Sigmar happened many people predicted the coming of the Age of the Emperor. They were reminded though that 40k was doing great in terms of sales and Warhammer Fantasy was struggling. So they'd never do the same thing with 40k.

Unless there was another reason. A means of making the product even more accessible to the next generation of gamers. With even less barriers to entry.

Very true.

But AoS was just a test, this is for real

A lot will depend on how there test goes and if they can make the alternatives any good.

Their test has been successfully completed already, it's called AoS and it does an excellent job of drawing new players in.

I recently picked up the new Lord of Change and Blue Horrors. Both came with full color instructions the included rules for AoS and 40K, including profiles, points and options.
I believe many of the Start Collecting boxes are the same.

So it brings up a question:
If 40K 8th edition is right around the corner (and has probably been done for a while) why would GW print out these rules to include in the boxes if they are doing a 'reboot' of 40K and potentially scrapping all the existing rules?
It would make no sense to print so many full color booklets just for them to be invalid within a few months

Does that mean that no matter how drastic they change the main rules, 8th edition 40K will still use all the existing codices and thus all stats, special rules, points cost, formations and detachments will remain until each codex gets updated, likely one at a time as now?

-

 Galef wrote:
I recently picked up the new Lord of Change and Blue Horrors. Both came with full color instructions the included rules for AoS and 40K, including profiles, points and options.
I believe many of the Start Collecting boxes are the same.

So it brings up a question:
If 40K 8th edition is right around the corner (and has probably been done for a while) why would GW print out these rules to include in the boxes if they are doing a 'reboot' of 40K and potentially scrapping all the existing rules?
It would make no sense to print so many full color booklets just for them to be invalid within a few months

Does that mean that no matter how drastic they change the main rules, 8th edition 40K will still use all the existing codices and thus all stats, special rules, points cost, formations and detachments will remain until each codex gets updated, likely one at a time as now?

-

The Nagash model I purchased shortly after AoS released had full 8th edition rules printed on it.

 frozenwastes wrote:
So a 12 year old and his friend happen to find themselves in a games store and think the miniatures on the wall are awesome. So they each grab a box and head to the register. They tell the person they want to play this cool game.

He goes on to tell them that they'll need a copy of the rulebook and a codex each for the rules they will need.
--- The future ---
He goes on to tell them that the rules are free and they can find the free dataslate inside the box and online for the stats for their models.

That works, although my vision for an rules-light 8E is more that people use the free rules and dataslates, but also that the rules are compact enough (say, 8 pages) that they can be included in every Codex. Then, all you'd need is just your Codex, and you'd have everything you need to play right there. Or, a group could get a single rulebook with ALL of the stats and rules in one place. But that's just me thinking about the implication of what a complact ruleset allows.

 EnTyme wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:
I recently picked up the new Lord of Change and Blue Horrors. Both came with full color instructions the included rules for AoS and 40K, including profiles, points and options.
I believe many of the Start Collecting boxes are the same.

So it brings up a question:
If 40K 8th edition is right around the corner (and has probably been done for a while) why would GW print out these rules to include in the boxes if they are doing a 'reboot' of 40K and potentially scrapping all the existing rules?
It would make no sense to print so many full color booklets just for them to be invalid within a few months

Does that mean that no matter how drastic they change the main rules, 8th edition 40K will still use all the existing codices and thus all stats, special rules, points cost, formations and detachments will remain until each codex gets updated, likely one at a time as now?

-

The Nagash model I purchased shortly after AoS released had full 8th edition rules printed on it.

Which is dumb. I guess it just shows that the different departments at GW either don't talk to each other, or don't care.

-

 Galef wrote:

Does that mean that no matter how drastic they change the main rules, 8th edition 40K will still use all the existing codices and thus all stats, special rules, points cost, formations and detachments will remain until each codex gets updated, likely one at a time as now?

Worst case scenario for us would be that the new rules are only available in the boxes and you have to buy the models again to get the rules for them
and GW has no problem to sell you the 7th edi rules a week before the new edi arrives and the rules are replaced by something new

I'd prefer they just left the rules out of the box entirely.
Eventually they will have to reprint new instructions. Seems terrible cost inefficient.

 Galef wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:
I recently picked up the new Lord of Change and Blue Horrors. Both came with full color instructions the included rules for AoS and 40K, including profiles, points and options.
I believe many of the Start Collecting boxes are the same.

So it brings up a question:
If 40K 8th edition is right around the corner (and has probably been done for a while) why would GW print out these rules to include in the boxes if they are doing a 'reboot' of 40K and potentially scrapping all the existing rules?
It would make no sense to print so many full color booklets just for them to be invalid within a few months

Does that mean that no matter how drastic they change the main rules, 8th edition 40K will still use all the existing codices and thus all stats, special rules, points cost, formations and detachments will remain until each codex gets updated, likely one at a time as now?

-

The Nagash model I purchased shortly after AoS released had full 8th edition rules printed on it.

Which is dumb. I guess it just shows that the different departments at GW either don't talk to each other, or don't care.

-

Indeed. Even though I bought the model to use as a C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer anyway, my first thought was "Oh good! Now I know how to use this model in a defunct game system! /s"

 Galef wrote:

If 40K 8th edition is right around the corner (and has probably been done for a while) why would GW print out these rules to include in the boxes if they are doing a 'reboot' of 40K and potentially scrapping all the existing rules?
-

Because they're still selling that kit for the current game during the time between when it was made and when the new rules are released.


GW change packaging and inserts every time a new edition drops.

I'd rather have rules to play any model I buy as soon as I buy the model.

I prefer a physical copy of those rules. A digital copy would be fine, but I'd prefer a physical copy. I sincerely doubt I'm alone in this.

Providing the rules for 8th edition (which is explicitly filled with bespoke rules, per GW's announcements) would give too much away for them to ever be included before 8th edition is actually launched.

I don't care if the rules are effectively useless in a few months due to an edition change, presuming the new rules are provided for effectively free somehow.

If previous edition changes are anything to go by, updated stats (when necessary, like when Vehicles got HP) are going to be provided as part of the edition update.

A single printed color sheet, produced en masse, is not going to be so costly as to make it cost-prohibitive to do this.

Given the trend that AoS set, we're probably getting free access to the new edition dataslates in one go.



Frankly, the concept that the late-in-the-edition model releases have 7th edition stats is effectively meaningless in terms of predictive usefulness.

To be honest, that would only work if they were sticking with an edition, but since we are all rubes that continue to rebuy stuff we already have, that will never happen.

Galef wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:


The Nagash model I purchased shortly after AoS released had full 8th edition rules printed on it.

Which is dumb. I guess it just shows that the different departments at GW either don't talk to each other, or don't care.

Probably not the explanation. The explanation is that the models get the rules of the current edition when they are manufactured.

I've been through two edition changes in games where the models come with full rules in each product. It's no big catastrophe to put a page into the recycling and continue to use the updated ones you were using for the stuff you had already purchased pre edition change anyway.

This idea that no rules in the box is better is a bit strange. Consider:

No rules in the box:
7th edition: no rules
8th edition: no rules

Current rules in the box:
7th edition: rules
8th edition: no rules

Future releases after 8th launches:
7th edition: no rules
8th edition: rules

No rules is literally the worst case scenario as the customer gets nothing no matter what edition is current or when the product is made.

Given the example of Age of Sigmar, I think it's fair to say that free PDF dataslates are going to get everyone the rules they need for the transition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
Their test has been successfully completed already, it's called AoS and it does an excellent job of drawing new players in.

This. Age of Sigmar was a total change in terms of how they offered a fantasy game to people. And it worked.

40k isn't getting designed with Age of Sigmar in mind for the same reasons that WHFB was replaced. It's not that 40k is in trouble and needs to be totally replaced due to the same sales issues that WHFB had. There are just certain things about Age of Sigmar that are advantageous both to the post launch customer and the company making the game.

I say "post launch" customer because I was there for the release of 3rd edition 40k. People are going to be so mad when their newly purchased codex and rulebook and supplement A through Z are all invalidated. It's necessary though if they want to get to a place where the game is accessible to no players.

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's not that 40k is in trouble and needs to be totally replaced.

40k has entered a permanent, steady decline,resulting from new games that take share from the former GW monopoly, amplified by GW pursuing profit over market share.

40k needs a total replacement, and a lot of that is due to the rules getting completely out of control. The complexity is far too high, as is the buy-in (both time and money). GW can't manage it.

If it makes you guys feel better, two different GW employees have stated at adepticon and on the warhammer community page, that codexs are not going away (not yet anyways) but they fully intend to intermix and make rules and datasheets much more available.

I personally think they are going to make an App or just have the datasheets of all models and probably formations (like in the start collecting boxes) in the model boxes, and for download on their site/app.

Codexs will still probably be useful and not wholly defunk, with some changes to the rules. I assume it will be like the Death from the Skies update. Core models rules will be the same, add these two bars and or change these two bits on the profile and whammy, a spicy update sandwhich.

I could wholly be wrong, but I assume this is what they will do, to minimize cost of updating and replacing, while still keeping their inventory useful and sellable.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's not that 40k is in trouble and needs to be totally replaced.

40k has entered a permanent, steady decline,resulting from new games that take share from the former GW monopoly, amplified by GW pursuing profit over market share.

40k needs a total replacement, and a lot of that is due to the rules getting completely out of control. The complexity is far too high, as is the buy-in (both time and money). GW can't manage it.

I actually agree. I added "due to the same sales issues that WHFB had." to the post you quoted. My point was that 40k, while certainly down from its height, isn't in the state that WHFB 8th edition sales were.

I think it does need a total replacement in terms of the rules and how the Kirby/Merrit era was about piling up the cost of entry as high as possible to maximize the amount of cash extracted before a new player quits and that needs to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tsol wrote:
If it makes you guys feel better, two different GW employees have stated at adepticon and on the warhammer community page, that codexs are not going away (not yet anyways) but they fully intend to intermix and make rules and datasheets much more available.

Codexes as a product line might stick around, but I'm not seeing anything which should make anyone expect their 7th edition (or 6th or 5th or whenever the last time rules for your army were published) books to remain valid. Codexes will still be a thing in the way WHFB Army Books still are: in their new form as Battletomes.

Save modifiers, movement rates, battleshock type moral, the changes talked about are just too big for the rules in a 7th edition codex to be still valid. I guess I could see a bunch of conversion tables that say things like "if your BS is 3, your to hit number is 4+. Lasguns have a wound roll of X. If your old save was X your new save is Y" but that seems unlikely given what they've said about "bespoke" rules per unit like Age of Sigmar has. I think it's far more likely that if its on sale on their website, they'll be a PDF with a free 8th edition data slate. They'll be apps for both Android and Apple that allow you to download them all for free with the option to purchase the additional rules content of the battletome type books as they come out.

They might make Grand Alliance type books with all the stats in one place as well. Those might be the first new "codex" type books we will see.

This is of course, assuming that because everything we've seen so far is right out of Age of Sigmar, and Age of Sigmar seems to be really working for GW, that we can expect the analogous news to continue.