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A common problem. It can be solved at slightly higher point values with Infiltrators.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
A common problem. It can be solved at slightly higher point values with Infiltrators.

And Dragoons.

I've got the start collecting tempestus box so the tempestor prime , command squad, and scion squad will likely be what I run instead of infiltrators

And I might use the Taurox Prime in the same way you use the dragoons and see how that goes

Jaynen wrote:
I've got the start collecting tempestus box so the tempestor prime , command squad, and scion squad will likely be what I run instead of infiltrators

And I might use the Taurox Prime in the same way you use the dragoons and see how that goes

At least the Taurox has some decent shooting too.

Yeah for 100 points
14" move
10 wounds
BS 3+
T6 Armor save 3+
24" range you can get 31 str 4 shots per turn

Which so far in 8th it seems to me volume of fire is largely more effective than fewer shots with higher str in almost every case

Jaynen wrote:
Yeah for 100 points
14" move
10 wounds
BS 3+
T6 Armor save 3+
24" range you can get 31 str 4 shots per turn

Which so far in 8th it seems to me volume of fire is largely more effective than fewer shots with higher str in almost every case

Volume in a dice game is almost always the best route anyhow, due to statistics. Forcing them into that 16% chance of rolling a 1 is the way to go. Our Robots do it better than anyone!

If I didn't think FoC would bring us transports and more units, I would probably grab Scions now. But I am going to keep waiting for FoC... likely forever!

I can confirm the cheapest Taurox Prime is a nice add to the army. I use it to transport 5 Scions with flamer, volley gun, plasma pistol & chainsword, as well as a Lord Commissar with power fist and plasma pistol too. They rarely survive all the game but they can be really nice against certain armies. My commissar once held his own against a Swarmlord in CC for two turns before retreating to allow me to shoot it down, I try to field him when I can now and gave him the power fist to deal with more Swarmlords Also have the famous Command Squad with 2 plasmas and 2 meltas and the Tempestor Prime with command rod, they can be devastating too if the dice allow.

I'm currently planning on adding a small Deathwatch force to my army for 2000+ pts for after I'll complete a bit my army with another Dunecrawler or two and five more Fulgurites. I was thinking on a Kill Team of five with a Watch Master for the full rerolls to hit, in a twin-lascannon Razorback for driving them up close at range for a salvo or two of frag cannon and shotgun, before engaging in CC with them, with a storm shield + power sword and a xenophase blade + plasma pistol combo on the Black Shield and Sergeant as they both have 3 attacks. I'd add five Vanguard Veterans for the mobility and CC capabilities too, and a Venerable Dreadnought with twin-lascannon, heavy flamer and CCW. That would give me 4 lascannon shots as well as CC support and good ranged weaponry too, while allowing me to paint something else for once

Aaranis, speaking of add-on detachments - any thoughts on GKs?

It seems they got nerfed in their codex in a way because as I understood it they now can never deal more than 1 Mortal Wound per smite for some reason, however they have nice other Psychic Powers like the one that allow to target a unit without needing LoS. However I don't know what role they could fill in an AdMech army. Mobility perhaps ? They have jump troops and the Dreadknight can teleport. I really don't know their units so can't really advise on them.

 Aaranis wrote:
It seems they got nerfed in their codex in a way because as I understood it they now can never deal more than 1 Mortal Wound per smite for some reason, however they have nice other Psychic Powers like the one that allow to target a unit without needing LoS. However I don't know what role they could fill in an AdMech army. Mobility perhaps ? They have jump troops and the Dreadknight can teleport. I really don't know their units so can't really advise on them.

I have been looking at their army for a way to add a highly mobile CC element to our artillery. GMNDKs, NDKs and Interceptors caught my eye. They can all Deep Strike, plus Interceptors get to re-deploy once per game (or again via a strategem). We could really benefit from that, as our artillery is static.

Here was a quick brainstorm:

HQ:
Cawl
[250]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]

Heavy:
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]

(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[143]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

[1015]

HQ:
Grand Master in NDK (Warlord)
Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greathammer, Teleporter
First to the Fray
[290]

Fast Attack:
(5) Interceptors
Psycannon, Daemon Hammer, 3x Falchions, 4x Storm Bolters
[150]

(5) Interceptors
Psycannon, Daemon Hammer, 3x Falchions, 4x Storm Bolters
[150]

(5) Interceptors
Psycannon, Daemon Hammer, 3x Falchions, 4x Storm Bolters
[150]

Heavy:
NDK
Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannons, Greatsword, Teleporter
[225]

[965]

[1980]

GKs can Deep Strike in and shoot, then charge with a re-roll (GM) and all get re-rolls to-hit. So, you have a highly mobile CC element and a load of firepower from the AdMech.

Jaynen wrote:
As a newbie what do you mean VirtualJava? Your guys dont die until the end of a round IE both players turns?

I'm not on too often lol. So kill points there isn't much you can do, but with those missions where you have to claim points on the table and outnumber the opponent, that is where we only score those points at the end of the battle round. Again the only thing you can really do vs one side getting annihilated off the table is to use a lot of line of sight blocking terrain and areas for cover. For us it's worked well so far. But thats anecdotal. Either way if its an issue in your club it couldn't hurt to try it out and if everyone hates it then find the solution that works for you guys!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Aaranis, speaking of add-on detachments - any thoughts on GKs?

Had a bit of fun involving Infiltrators and Paladins tonight:
Take an Ancient with a banner, Warlord with +1 Ld aura, and stick the enemy with the -1 Ld Neurostatic aura.
Ld 11 effectively for the Paladin Commander.

Managed to pull off 8 mortal wounds in 1 shot with Purge Soul on a Hellbrute, and that was without the Infiltrators giving it the old Neurostatic!

Just a shame we don't currently have the Holy Requisitioner shenanigans, because that'd tie in nicely with the Teleportariums. Nice enough getting the Infiltrators stuck right in with the GKs though.

Jaynen wrote:
The reason I would think it might be 3 attacks and only 1 with the hive would be because under the fight/weapons rule it says a unit gets the number of attacks it gets on its stat sheet and can choose a weapon per attack.

The hive itself is listed under "weapons" not under special rules

Similar to some of the other weapons like missiles which say you can only use this weapon once per turn

I've got a Scions Unit I am building now to try along with my AdMech.

I played my first little game yesterday at around 730 points and ended up winning.

All my small stuff ended up getting obliterated as soon as it was in range of my space marine opponent and he got hosed as soon as he got within range of my 2 kastellans in protector while my neutron onager was hanging back and shooting at his captain etc.

My biggest issues I felt were.
* Very immobile
* I didn't have any units that could really advance to objectives and then effectively hold them very long

The Kastellans with their 18 shots each killed about 4 marines per turn devastating his two tactical squads of 5

Sisters of Battle is interesting. Dominion squad gets to move after everyone else sets up turn 1. So that's a 6" move. Use Celestine's act of faith they could move again or their own/your armies act of faith they could move again

As I said, if we treat Hive like Chainswords, it ought to be 4 + 2D6.

Scions are really strong, and you definitely can use them in a Taurox. I actually recommend a Patrol Detachment with a Tempestor Prime, a command squad, a regular squad. All plasma guns.

Yeah. We're an artillery army. So the idea is to have a static component that beats the tar out of everything and a mobile component that can go around grabbing objectives and screen.

Don't expect the Kastelan thing to work against people who know what it does. Their role really is to force the opponent into making bad trades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Aaranis, speaking of add-on detachments - any thoughts on GKs?

Had a bit of fun involving Infiltrators and Paladins tonight:
Take an Ancient with a banner, Warlord with +1 Ld aura, and stick the enemy with the -1 Ld Neurostatic aura.
Ld 11 effectively for the Paladin Commander.

Managed to pull off 8 mortal wounds in 1 shot with Purge Soul on a Hellbrute, and that was without the Infiltrators giving it the old Neurostatic!

Just a shame we don't currently have the Holy Requisitioner shenanigans, because that'd tie in nicely with the Teleportariums. Nice enough getting the Infiltrators stuck right in with the GKs though.

People use Paladins? I mean, I just see them as overpriced Terminators.

I know that the Triple-Phospher DakKastelan is the go-to choice for most people on here, but I was just wondering how effective the Fists-Bot is? Is it worth taking?

I like the idea of a big 70's style robot walking up the field tearing things apart with its bare hands. Maybe with the giant flamer on its shoulder.

How would you run a squad of these? One immediate issue I'm seeing, is that they move 8" a turn... and their necessary overseer Datasmith only moved 6" a turn. So he's going to lag behind.

Tried them. They died like little bi---es to genestealers and broodlord in 1 turn. :/

Niiru wrote:
I know that the Triple-Phospher DakKastelan is the go-to choice for most people on here, but I was just wondering how effective the Fists-Bot is? Is it worth taking?

I like the idea of a big 70's style robot walking up the field tearing things apart with its bare hands. Maybe with the giant flamer on its shoulder.

How would you run a squad of these? One immediate issue I'm seeing, is that they move 8" a turn... and their necessary overseer Datasmith only moved 6" a turn. So he's going to lag behind.

I just pulled a 5-man Melée Kastellan Deathstar in a 750 point game today, and my god do they get the job done. [Was on a 4x4 board, mind]
Faced Eldar with a Vindicare;

10 Rangers
1 Farseer
1 Autarch
5 Warp Spiders
5 Harlequins
1 Vindicare
---Vs---
5 Kastellans
w/ Fists, 3 w/ Combustors
1 Datasmith
1 Dominus

Despite all the Doom and rerolling malarkey the Elderp do, I tanked the lot of it. Lost 2 of the robots, but the other 3 stood strong, sure as hell helped by the Datasmith fixing them.
Dominus really didn't do much, apart from draw the first 2 turns of fire whilst the robots decked it for the trees.
You'd think, since the Domini are specialised towards Cybernetica, that the 40k counterpart would do something a little more interesting with robots.

Datasmith didn't have any trouble keeping up, and keep in mind that the repair job is at the end of the movement phase, and so can be done even if he advanced!
You should be worried about Supercharged Plasma fire, though. Fortunate that I didn't go against any proper anti-tank weaponry, because that would've definitely caused problems.
But, remembering that, with Aegis protocol, they have 4+ invuln to shooting. Just need to be savvy with cover and LoS, and you should be able to repair through it all.

(And yes, I did omit giving two of the Kastellans their ranged weapons, which isn't strictly allowed in the rules. I only shot the flamethrowers once anyway)

The problem with them is that they're fairly slow for a melee unit and their invuln is only against shooting attacks. Given the right circumstances I'm sure they're extremely deadly. But it won't work the majority of the time, I'd bet.

Can't imagine they'd fare as well as Domitar do walking straight into a tank line, but I've yet to attempt that with the Kastellans.

@Suzuteo
People use Paladins? I mean, I just see them as overpriced Terminators

I got 4 GK Termies off a colleague; the only GK's I've got, so I field them as 3 Paladins with an Ancient.
They seem pretty decent; I've no qualms with them thus far.

Going to resurrect an old topic that never really was fully settled.

What is the best lone Knight to run with AdMech? Should a lone Knight be run at all?

My favorite two are in the low-500 cost range. I feel that going any lower makes them less versatile.

512:
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber

516:
Knight Warden - Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod

As you can see, they're both built with the assumption that I am going to be entering CC.

For the Crusader, Avenger and Flamer handles hordes and the TC can handles tanks at close range and TEQ/Primaris in general. Feet are a very versatile 12x S8 AP-2 D3 damage weapon.

For the Warden, Avenger and Flamer handles hordes per usual, and I swap out the very limited use Reaper for the Gauntlet, which is wayyy better against vehicles and also provides a source of relatively reliable mortal wounds. Stormspear is essentially 3x Krak Missiles for 15 points each, which complements the Gauntlet really well.

On the other hand, I can have this instead:

511:
1x Tech-Priest Dominus
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
1x Kastelan Robot - Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
2x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

I feel that the Knight is greater than the sum of these parts, especially the Dominus, which is a tax necessary to gain access to additional slots.

Opinions?

 Colonel Cross wrote:
The problem with them is that they're fairly slow for a melee unit and their invuln is only against shooting attacks. Given the right circumstances I'm sure they're extremely deadly. But it won't work the majority of the time, I'd bet.

?

They have an 8" move, and are usually a 1+/4++ first turn against shooting, so I don't think they have a problem making it in. I just wish the fist/flamer version cost a bit less, and they have no access to rerolls except as a canticle. They are a "close, but no cigar" unit for me. That said, I only have two built in that configuration, so they miiiight work slightly better at 3/4 squad, but that's an almost prohibitive amount of points.


@suzuteo ...
I think crusader is still the way to go, tho I don't *hate* the warden. That said, what does the rest of the list look like, because do you really need the slots that you have to take the Dominus?

Suzuteo wrote:

Jaynen wrote:
The reason I would think it might be 3 attacks and only 1 with the hive would be because under the fight/weapons rule it says a unit gets the number of attacks it gets on its stat sheet and can choose a weapon per attack.

The hive itself is listed under "weapons" not under special rules

Similar to some of the other weapons like missiles which say you can only use this weapon once per turn

I've got a Scions Unit I am building now to try along with my AdMech.

I played my first little game yesterday at around 730 points and ended up winning.

All my small stuff ended up getting obliterated as soon as it was in range of my space marine opponent and he got hosed as soon as he got within range of my 2 kastellans in protector while my neutron onager was hanging back and shooting at his captain etc.

My biggest issues I felt were.
* Very immobile
* I didn't have any units that could really advance to objectives and then effectively hold them very long

The Kastellans with their 18 shots each killed about 4 marines per turn devastating his two tactical squads of 5

Sisters of Battle is interesting. Dominion squad gets to move after everyone else sets up turn 1. So that's a 6" move. Use Celestine's act of faith they could move again or their own/your armies act of faith they could move again

As I said, if we treat Hive like Chainswords, it ought to be 4 + 2D6.

Scions are really strong, and you definitely can use them in a Taurox. I actually recommend a Patrol Detachment with a Tempestor Prime, a command squad, a regular squad. All plasma guns.

Yeah. We're an artillery army. So the idea is to have a static component that beats the tar out of everything and a mobile component that can go around grabbing objectives and screen.

Don't expect the Kastelan thing to work against people who know what it does. Their role really is to force the opponent into making bad trades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Aaranis, speaking of add-on detachments - any thoughts on GKs?

Had a bit of fun involving Infiltrators and Paladins tonight:
Take an Ancient with a banner, Warlord with +1 Ld aura, and stick the enemy with the -1 Ld Neurostatic aura.
Ld 11 effectively for the Paladin Commander.

Managed to pull off 8 mortal wounds in 1 shot with Purge Soul on a Hellbrute, and that was without the Infiltrators giving it the old Neurostatic!

Just a shame we don't currently have the Holy Requisitioner shenanigans, because that'd tie in nicely with the Teleportariums. Nice enough getting the Infiltrators stuck right in with the GKs though.

People use Paladins? I mean, I just see them as overpriced Terminators.

Paladins are awesome. They're requiring twice the amount of Plasma to kill, you don't want to point Lascannons at them very much because they're cheapish, and nobody is taking Melta Guns at the particular moment.

gally912 wrote:
I think crusader is still the way to go, tho I don't *hate* the warden. That said, what does the rest of the list look like, because do you really need the slots that you have to take the Dominus?

It shouldn't matter too much. After all, the Knight is basically taking these parts and putting them on an independent super-heavy platform.

What is it about the Warden that you don't like? How would you improve it?

But to answer your question, yes, I have totally maxed out my Spearhead's heavy support slots, and I'm not interested in filling my troop or elite slots.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Paladins are awesome. They're requiring twice the amount of Plasma to kill, you don't want to point Lascannons at them very much because they're cheapish, and nobody is taking Melta Guns at the particular moment.

I see your point. The meta definitely does have a blind spot for medium toughness units. Then again, you're talking to a guy who runs Thermal Cannon Crusader. Haha.

 gally912 wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
The problem with them is that they're fairly slow for a melee unit and their invuln is only against shooting attacks. Given the right circumstances I'm sure they're extremely deadly. But it won't work the majority of the time, I'd bet.

?

They have an 8" move, and are usually a 1+/4++ first turn against shooting, so I don't think they have a problem making it in. I just wish the fist/flamer version cost a bit less, and they have no access to rerolls except as a canticle. They are a "close, but no cigar" unit for me. That said, I only have two built in that configuration, so they miiiight work slightly better at 3/4 squad, but that's an almost prohibitive amount of points.

If the codex drops and the close combat variant of Kastellans doesn't decrease I'll be very surprised. They look so cool I want them to be good, haha.

I've been using Kataphron Breachers my past few matches, giving Torsion cannons a go, and I've got to say; I'm preferring these guys much more over the Destroyers.
That'll be partly down to me not having any Electropriests as gunline defence like the rest of you, but these Breachers are certainly handling themselves alright if they get overrun.
Ends up being a sandbagging fest with Arc Claws, but investing in the Hydraulics, despite the crummy hitting, frees them up after a few turns, or at least until I get something else in the ease the situation.

Having 2 units of 3, and taking it in turns to go into CC with them: 1 unit goes in, whilst the other shoots other things.
First unit falls back, second shoots and then charges.
Rinse and repeat until something dies or runs off.

No denying that Destroyers put out a more reliable damage output, and a higher one at that, but there's really something to be said for Torsion cannons 1-shotting a Redemptor. Quite a lot of fun when that happens.


Also gave Ruststalkers a proper go tonight, tasked with taking out some Tyranid Warriors and a Tyrant: Underwhelming, but they do actually get through things. Wishing that Transonics got better over time like they did in 7th, but they still do work.
They don't fit the thematic very well though; I see them as a bunch of spindly gits that are going to run really fast at you, and shred you to pieces pretty quickly before moving on.
Feels like they now just amble on up to a target, and proceed to ram screwdrivers into it until it collapses.

I want to run a lone knight.

I am leaning crusader. But I was thinking of the Avenger and the RFBC 2D6 STR 8 shots seems a lot better than D3 (and D6 vs large number of models units) of STR 9 fire. Most things at STR 8 AP-2 will be taking invuln saves anyway?

And I think the RFBC also adds another heavy stubber, so that gives you 2 of those, the flamer, the Avenger Gatling, the Rapid Fire Battle Canon and Titanic feet for 540pts

My scions plan is currently the 1 unit with tempestor plasma pistol, and 2 plasma weapons on the scions.
Tempestor prime with command rod
Tempestus command squad with 4 plasma

Has anyone tried heavy weapons squads (they have 3 heavy weapons teams each right?) so you pick up 3 mortars which are 5 pts each and it says 4 pts per model 3 models per unit so 12+15 = 27pts for 46" range heavy d6x3 str 4 shots that don't need LOS

Thats similar to the output of a dakastellan?

I'm not a big fan of the RFBC. It's 28 more points without much to show for it. After all, if my Crusader is not within melee range, I don't think I'm using it to the fullest. That being said, the way I see it, the TC is higher risk, but higher reward as well. With command rerolls, this can actually work out really nicely. (And honestly, I don't have too much stuff to reroll except for my Knight, since the rest of my stuff is hunkered down around Cawl.)

For Scions, I use this:
Patrol Detachment - 166

HQ - 40
1x Tempestor Prime - Tempestus Command Rod, Chainsword

Troop - 62
1x Tempestor - Hot-shot Laspistol, Chainsword
2x Militarum Tempestus Scions - 2x Plasma Gun
2x Militarum Tempestus Scions - 2x Hot-shot Lasgun

Elite - 64
4x Militarum Tempestus Scions - 4x Plasma Gun

Jaynen wrote:
I want to run a lone knight.

I am leaning crusader. But I was thinking of the Avenger and the RFBC 2D6 STR 8 shots seems a lot better than D3 (and D6 vs large number of models units) of STR 9 fire. Most things at STR 8 AP-2 will be taking invuln saves anyway?

And I think the RFBC also adds another heavy stubber, so that gives you 2 of those, the flamer, the Avenger Gatling, the Rapid Fire Battle Canon and Titanic feet for 540pts

My scions plan is currently the 1 unit with tempestor plasma pistol, and 2 plasma weapons on the scions.
Tempestor prime with command rod
Tempestus command squad with 4 plasma

Has anyone tried heavy weapons squads (they have 3 heavy weapons teams each right?) so you pick up 3 mortars which are 5 pts each and it says 4 pts per model 3 models per unit so 12+15 = 27pts for 46" range heavy d6x3 str 4 shots that don't need LOS

Thats similar to the output of a dakastellan?

The mortars are not going to do NEARLY as much damage as the dakastellans. S6 AP -2 no cover bonus vs S4 AP0. That being said, if you're concerned about being drowned by hordes, then yes, they could help you out. They can still fire their lasguns too, everything can fire all pistol or non pistol weapons this edition.

I just built a list, looking forward to finishing up the Ad Mech side to try it out. The Guard struggle so much with high T and multi wound so I've basically taken a Vanguard Detachment with Cawl, 2x Dakkastellans, 2 Neutronagers, and 1x Icarus Onager. Then I can drown my opponent in bodies AND a few vehicles that are actually worth their points. My list nets me 3xBN Detachments and the Ad Mech Vanguard so I'll have 13 CPs to chuck!

Suzuteo wrote:
I'm not a big fan of the RFBC. It's 28 more points without much to show for it. After all, if my Crusader is not within melee range, I don't think I'm using it to the fullest. That being said, the way I see it, the TC is higher risk, but higher reward as well. With command rerolls, this can actually work out really nicely. (And honestly, I don't have too much stuff to reroll except for my Knight, since the rest of my stuff is hunkered down around Cawl.)

For Scions, I use this:
Patrol Detachment - 166

HQ - 40
1x Tempestor Prime - Tempestus Command Rod, Chainsword

Troop - 62
1x Tempestor - Hot-shot Laspistol, Chainsword
2x Militarum Tempestus Scions - 2x Plasma Gun
2x Militarum Tempestus Scions - 2x Hot-shot Lasgun

Elite - 64
4x Militarum Tempestus Scions - 4x Plasma Gun

Thats what I am going to use except I went ahead and gave the Tempestor the Plasma Pistol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Jaynen wrote:
I want to run a lone knight.

I am leaning crusader. But I was thinking of the Avenger and the RFBC 2D6 STR 8 shots seems a lot better than D3 (and D6 vs large number of models units) of STR 9 fire. Most things at STR 8 AP-2 will be taking invuln saves anyway?

And I think the RFBC also adds another heavy stubber, so that gives you 2 of those, the flamer, the Avenger Gatling, the Rapid Fire Battle Canon and Titanic feet for 540pts

My scions plan is currently the 1 unit with tempestor plasma pistol, and 2 plasma weapons on the scions.
Tempestor prime with command rod
Tempestus command squad with 4 plasma

Has anyone tried heavy weapons squads (they have 3 heavy weapons teams each right?) so you pick up 3 mortars which are 5 pts each and it says 4 pts per model 3 models per unit so 12+15 = 27pts for 46" range heavy d6x3 str 4 shots that don't need LOS

Thats similar to the output of a dakastellan?

The mortars are not going to do NEARLY as much damage as the dakastellans. S6 AP -2 no cover bonus vs S4 AP0. That being said, if you're concerned about being drowned by hordes, then yes, they could help you out. They can still fire their lasguns too, everything can fire all pistol or non pistol weapons this edition.

I just built a list, looking forward to finishing up the Ad Mech side to try it out. The Guard struggle so much with high T and multi wound so I've basically taken a Vanguard Detachment with Cawl, 2x Dakkastellans, 2 Neutronagers, and 1x Icarus Onager. Then I can drown my opponent in bodies AND a few vehicles that are actually worth their points. My list nets me 3xBN Detachments and the Ad Mech Vanguard so I'll have 13 CPs to chuck!

Ok that is great information thank you. I was just perusing some of the other IG options since I would be making a Scions detachment anyway. I was comparing the Basilisk to the Mortars but you make some good points.

I think even running a single conscript blob with the commissar who comes in my tempestus starter box would probably provide a lot of board control because of how damn many of them there are and you can only lose one per turn for morale

Suzuteo wrote:

gally912 wrote:
I think crusader is still the way to go, tho I don't *hate* the warden. That said, what does the rest of the list look like, because do you really need the slots that you have to take the Dominus?

It shouldn't matter too much. After all, the Knight is basically taking these parts and putting them on an independent super-heavy platform.

What is it about the Warden that you don't like? How would you improve it?

But to answer your question, yes, I have totally maxed out my Spearhead's heavy support slots, and I'm not interested in filling my troop or elite slots.

Very fair. The swap out units only added one HS slot so I thought you might be able to get away with it.

That said... The Warden layout you gave is interesting. It's a psuedo naked-Crusader, trading the thermal cannon For a gauntlet/and 3 krak missiles. A very comparable and even favorable trade! I also agree in regards to the RFBC. Most of the time, its about 4 s8 hits that get saved way to often, and way too often do piddly damage. (I can't begin to count the number of times its only managed to kill 1 primates marine)

If you can't squeeze the points to put the stormspear on the crusader (my current load out), then I'd say the two options are almost identical and a matter of taste. I might prefer the S9 with 18" melta range myself. Be able to shoot backfield vehicles and charge the front lines, or even the old pop-transport-charge-insides routine. Like you say, its also a great target for the command reroll.

The Warden variant obviously performs a very similar job, but the question I'd ask is how often you feel that you would choose the fist to attack with - versus the feet? I can't see that very often myself. The targets where the fist applies a significant advantage over feet are few and far between.

All that said again, its basically a crusader that traded its d3 s9 melts for a more consistent 3 krak missiles with an upside in CC. I just am adverse to give up ranged firepower of any kind for a situational melee weapon. The thermal cannon will always have a target, almost every turn. The fist...sometimes, maybe, depending on a host of factors and probably not more than once a game (barring an all russ IG list, and such)

hope that helps a little



Edit:
Of course, that really wasn't what you were asking. I would say either of those perform favorably to your swap out units. This applies in both output, durability, and target saturation. An opponent is hard pressed being forced to choose going after knight/dakkastelems/onagers. That's a whole other unignorable threat, versus just the pair of onagers/kastelens

 gally912 wrote:

Very fair. The swap out units only added one HS slot so I thought you might be able to get away with it.

That said... The Warden layout you gave is interesting. It's a psuedo naked-Crusader, trading the thermal cannon For a gauntlet/and 3 krak missiles. A very comparable and even favorable trade! I also agree in regards to the RFBC. Most of the time, its about 4 s8 hits that get saved way to often, and way too often do piddly damage. (I can't begin to count the number of times its only managed to kill 1 primates marine)

If you can't squeeze the points to put the stormspear on the crusader (my current load out), then I'd say the two options are almost identical and a matter of taste. I might prefer the S9 with 18" melta range myself. Be able to shoot backfield vehicles and charge the front lines, or even the old pop-transport-charge-insides routine. Like you say, its also a great target for the command reroll.

The Warden variant obviously performs a very similar job, but the question I'd ask is how often you feel that you would choose the fist to attack with - versus the feet? I can't see that very often myself. The targets where the fist applies a significant advantage over feet are few and far between.

All that said again, its basically a crusader that traded its d3 s9 melts for a more consistent 3 krak missiles with an upside in CC. I just am adverse to give up ranged firepower of any kind for a situational melee weapon. The thermal cannon will always have a target, almost every turn. The fist...sometimes, maybe, depending on a host of factors and probably not more than once a game (barring an all russ IG list, and such)

hope that helps a little

Edit:
Of course, that really wasn't what you were asking. I would say either of those perform favorably to your swap out units. This applies in both output, durability, and target saturation. An opponent is hard pressed being forced to choose going after knight/dakkastelems/onagers. That's a whole other unignorable threat, versus just the pair of onagers/kastelens

Well, even if I did squeeze the Heavy Support slot, I would still take the tax because 2x2 Dragoons is not enough for screening. The Knight does fill that role with his great mobility and melee.

Right. The principle behind the Warden setup is essentially to trade a Thermal Cannon for 3x Krak Missiles and Gauntlet. I take the Gauntlet because Gauntlet+Feet are flat-out better than Reaper+Feet in every circumstance, and that is worth 5 points. The Feet are definitely more versatile and kill everything but tanks, and Gauntlets peel open (and then throw) tanks. You do point out one hiccup though: you have to shoot before you charge, making transport-killing a bit more awkward than with the Crusader build, which melts the transport then shoots or stomps the occupants.