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So, for those late to the thread? A summary of the card discussion so far.

Ross Watson (Wrath & Glory line developer): "You don't need the cards to play the game."
Eric Simon (Wrath & Glory community guru): "You don't need the cards to play the game."
Me (Wrath & Glory GM): "You don't need the cards to play the game."
Dakka:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.

Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.

Effectively, what they're selling us is Pen and Paper DLC. Since we already know that the cards are designed right in, this does mean that material that would have otherwise been IN the book is held back, to make the new 'expanded' material found only in the cards.

Your argument here is "People who say you don't need the cards are talking out their ass because what if I need the cards", which to be honest is not even really an argument. If a perfectly serviceable table is available in the book then under what possible circumstance would you be required to also own the cards? The only situations in which you would own them would be if you liked the card mechanics, if you wanted them for convenience at the table, or if you couldn't control your spending.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
. The cards are not necessary to play the game..

And, in theory, you can play 40k without ever buying a Codex. Try it sometime.

A codex contains the rules for your army which aren't available anywhere else (aside from the indexes released alongside the 8th edition rule book), owning one is a necessary part of building an army. The decks of cards, on the other hand, are entirely optional add-ons that replace rules already present in the core rulebook. This isn't even a comparison.

Salty people maybe should find a better use for their time...

So how much of the rule book is devoted to these tables, or cards if they are an unnecessary option? Will these be like the weapon to hit adjustments by armor class nobody ever used in AD&D? How much will the cost of future adventures be effected by these cards if they are bundled together with new material? Were the developers told " Pokémon! Must sell cards! Add cards now! Add cards now!"

If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.

Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.

Effectively, what they're selling us is Pen and Paper DLC. Since we already know that the cards are designed right in, this does mean that material that would have otherwise been IN the book is held back, to make the new 'expanded' material found only in the cards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
. The cards are not necessary to play the game..

And, in theory, you can play 40k without ever buying a Codex. Try it sometime.

RPGs have been selling "DLC" since the first supplement book for RPGs. This is no different. Now, I understand your objection to card decks in principle, but in this instance, it makes no difference. In fact it's a benefit to you, as you're not being forced to buy content you don't want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.

Pretty sure there's racks of those in GW.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.

Pretty sure there's racks of those in GW.

Yeah, I think making a separate model line to use for a pen and paper RPG would be the quickest way to lose the GW licence that any RPG company could do

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.

Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.

For what 'reason' would you suddenly 'need' the stuff that's only on the cards?

At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.

Yeah, you’re on track with that assumption. Ross said that only card deck you will need is the Campaign Deck. All of the other decks are covered by tables that are in Core Book. If you choose to use the card decks, they replace the tables in the Core Book. As for how the card decks stack up against the tables in the book? I don’t think anyone outside of the development team knows at this point.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.

Pretty sure there's racks of those in GW.

Yeah, I think making a separate model line to use for a pen and paper RPG would be the quickest way to lose the GW licence that any RPG company could do

Yep, I'm sure all those legal team folks are in a state of vapor lock that prevents them from making money if they want to.

Warmachine. An example of a wargame that supported open game license RPG based on the setting with individual blister pack miniatures.

The cards seem to be a boutique specialty item that will clutter future adventure path releases.
You have your keep on the borderlands dice, then your island of dread dice, followed by your Ravonloft dice.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.

Pretty sure there's racks of those in GW.

Yeah, I think making a separate model line to use for a pen and paper RPG would be the quickest way to lose the GW licence that any RPG company could do

I'd love GW to release Wrath and Glory branded cross promotion models though, like a 'veteran guardsman', an inquisitor, stuff like that which would basically be versions of some of the starter adventure characters but customization with different heads and guns. They could then double as 40k models by tying them to actual rules for an inquisitor and guard officer or something.

Maybe they will, once Kill Team is finally released?

BlueGrassGamer wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.

Yeah, you’re on track with that assumption. Ross said that only card deck you will need is the Campaign Deck. All of the other decks are covered by tables that are in Core Book. If you choose to use the card decks, they replace the tables in the Core Book. As for how the card decks stack up against the tables in the book? I don’t think anyone outside of the development team knows at this point.

Correct, but the rules are written in a way that the decks is used. The mechanic of having the next critical effect face-up to play around doesn't work with a roll table. So are there two sets of rules for using tables and using decks? Or just using decks with a 'table' that just shows what is in the deck (so not a roll table at all?)

There are other questions still outstanding that I want to find out before committing/not committing .

Is it possible to play the campaign without use of the decks. Hopefully not, but he did say that stuff was not included in the book (including future adventure books?) and as random expendable resources i don't see many ways to work around that.

They also mentioned that in future all decks could be 'expanded' with rules updates. Is that limited to stuff like adding weapons cards to the weapons deck (in which case as long as the rules are in expansion, no problem), or additions to a critical deck (how would that work with two separate tables?). If the additional rules are in a deck, will they also be in the future books at all?

How many copies of each weapon are there in a deck? I can see a use if enough for each player to have a card for their weapon, but if just one copy then not much difference from referring to a shared book? (not really an issue, just weird)

I like the expanded character choices, I have come around to the dice pool. I dislike to idea of the deck/usable cards mechanics for reasons i previously stated.

If there is content (whether expanded rules or adventures) now, or in the future, that can't be used without using decks I want to know because then I can happily drop the system. I don't want a system where I have to 'ignore' rules to enjoy it.

As it stands I am interested in getting a new 40k rpg but don't know enough about it.

 Grinshanks wrote:

BlueGrassGamer wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.

Yeah, you’re on track with that assumption. Ross said that only card deck you will need is the Campaign Deck. All of the other decks are covered by tables that are in Core Book. If you choose to use the card decks, they replace the tables in the Core Book. As for how the card decks stack up against the tables in the book? I don’t think anyone outside of the development team knows at this point.

Correct, but the rules are written in a way that the decks is used. The mechanic of having the next critical effect face-up to play around doesn't work with a roll table. So are there two sets of rules for using tables and using decks? Or just using decks with a 'table' that just shows what is in the deck (so not a roll table at all?)

The official announcements call them optional items, so I can only believe that the core rules say "roll on this chart for a critical effect", whereas the cards say "instead of rolling on the chart, deal out the top card, and apply it to the next critical hit generated". Your statement there implies you've seen the rules, but I assume that's not the case? later in the post you talk about questions to be answered, which to se suggests you've not seen the rules either.

As for " a system where I have to 'ignore' rules to enjoy it", I've yet to find the RPG system where I want to use all the rules (even just all the rules in the core rulebook, never mind bothering with supplements). In Dark Heresy, we ditched the "infamy" system (or whatever FFG called it), in most other games we chuck out or simplify ammo tracking, encumbrance, etc. I'd rather the rulebook had stuff in I didn't want than be missing something I do want.

 Grinshanks wrote:
Correct, but the rules are written in a way that the decks is used. The mechanic of having the next critical effect face-up to play around doesn't work with a roll table. So are there two sets of rules for using tables and using decks? Or just using decks with a 'table' that just shows what is in the deck (so not a roll table at all?)

Going off the preview article for the card decks, it's one or the other. If you and your gaming group chooses to use the card decks, you've replaced the tables in the book with a card draw/the card mechanics..

 Grinshanks wrote:
Is it possible to play the campaign without use of the decks.

Yeap, you are more than able to run Wrath & Glory without using any of the decks. I sure didn't have access to them while running Wrath & Glory at Origins.

 Grinshanks wrote:
They also mentioned that in future all decks could be 'expanded' with rules updates. Is that limited to stuff like adding weapons cards to the weapons deck (in which case as long as the rules are in expansion, no problem), or additions to a critical deck (how would that work with two separate tables?). If the additional rules are in a deck, will they also be in the future books at all?

I'd hazard a guess that Ulisses NA is going to be following FFG's example. Every time FFG releases a new supplement for their Star Wars line, they also release a card deck of each specialization in the book. The card decks basically make the information in the book available in another medium.

 Grinshanks wrote:
How many copies of each weapon are there in a deck? I can see a use if enough for each player to have a card for their weapon, but if just one copy then not much difference from referring to a shared book? (not really an issue, just weird)

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Ulisses NA looks to have moved away from having specialized damage tables - like Slashing, Projectile, and Exploding - and adopted a more generic approach to damage. The Wrath cards that I have seen, and that have been previewed, just deal straight Wounds. And Gear decks aren't a thing in Wrath & Glory.

Lots of chat about the game with designer Ross Watson in this D6 generation episode,

http://traffic.libsyn.com/thed6generation/D6GEp233.mp3?dest-id=12626

starts about 1hr 3 mins

(not sure if this has been posted a fair bit earlier, i'm behind on my podcast listening, but I've not see it if it has been)

I gotta say that this thread has taken some of the wind out of my sails regarding this game. It went from a must preorder day one to reserve a copy of it at my local store to wait for the reviews to come out before deciding. That's not a rip on this thread as plenty of valid concerns have been raised.

 Mysterio wrote:


For what 'reason' would you suddenly 'need' the stuff that's only on the cards?

I grant I'm making an assumption, but the cards need to have a reason to exist. Otherwise no one is going to use them. Easiest way to do it: hold back rules that a GM would require, like vehicle rules, for the cards instead of on a table in the book.



And I grant, I should have used 'microtransactions' instead of DLC. Effectively, any cards can be rolled out at any time that change the game in fundamental ways. The prohibitive cost of creating an RPG splatbook is what used to keep this sort of thing under control. Now with cards we can just spam whatever we want, and they've already announced that there will be con and event specific card releases.

That’s a hell of an assumption to make, honestly. Especially since the Specialization Decks that FFG releases along side their Star Wars books don’t add anything to the game beside making the Specializations available in a different format. They don’t add additional Talents or anything else.

And the horror! Having promo cards for the entirely optional card decks available at conventions! They’ll probably include them free if you buy a set amount of merchandise, like spending forty bucks are the booth or something!

Haven't seen this posted yet so:

Wrath and Glory via Facebook wrote:Earlier this week, we previewed several of the new gameplay card decks for Wrath & Glory. We are now happy to announce that we will be including 10 promo cards for the Campaign Card Deck in every bundle! (Player and All-In)

If you haven't seen our list of bonus materials lately, be sure to scroll down to the appropriate section and see what's coming!

Also, we'll start sending out coupon links to the OffWorld Designs t-shirt next week, starting with everyone who's pre-ordered so far!

https://www.ulisses-us.com/wrathandglory/#bonus-material

This part from the link got me:

Blessings Unheralded (physical product) – This is the same packet that we created for Free RPG Day 2018. Unlike other Quickstart products, Blessings Unheralded comes with tokens, a battlemap, and deluxe character sheets, so in the future we’ll be selling it rather than giving it away. But you’ll still get it for free with your pre-order!

As a Free RPG day little adventure sure it was an ok product, but as a starter kit they expect people to pay for....
The 'tokens' came on a sheet that I never bothered cutting out because.. well.. they didn't push out you had to use scissors.
The battlemap was tiny single sided A3 and as far as I could tell doesn't actually match any of the locations in the adventure The character sheets were nice, quality sheets. Dunno about deluxe but fine I have no problem with that part.
But they imply other quickstart products don't come with these things? My FFG star wars ones come with huge double sided maps that cover everything nessecary, equally nice character sheets, and much higher quality tokens that I can simply push you of the frame. D&D is like that too. Iron Kingdoms Unleashed came with models. As an actual introductory product the Blessings Unheralded kit is really small and cheap looking, I never thought anyone would be expected to pay for it

So they're selling the free RPG day promotional adventure instead of giving it away in PDF form? (besides bundling it with preorders of course) Yeeeeeahhh... I'm going to have to disagree with that choice. If I wasn't already in the wait and see camp then this would definitely put me into it.

I've actually posted in the Facebook thread that I didn't realize the Free RPG module was the starter set and that it worries me a little they seem to think it's comparable to other RPG starter sets on the market. If and how they reply could be very very telling...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok they've responded and clarified that Blessings Unheralded is not a starter set, just a slightly larger quickstart.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I've actually posted in the Facebook thread that I didn't realize the Free RPG module was the starter set and that it worries me a little they seem to think it's comparable to other RPG starter sets on the market. If and how they reply could be very very telling...

I'd say it's hard to do a comparison with the relative prices personally. If they charge $10 for the physical starter and it's got 1/5th the content of a $50 D&D starter then it's relatively worth it. I just think it's more than a bit odd to not offer it as a free pdf as well given the proven tactic used by FFG which iirc some key people involved worked at.

My guess though is that they will eventually release the starter pdf for free but they're holding off on announcing it so as to sweeten the pot for the overpriced preorder bundles. Then they'll sound magnanimous when they change their mind later on and give it free to all because of popular demand or somesuch. It also could just be that they need to sell it for added income. Just spitballing either way but I think the former is most likely. The free rpg day adventure was going to be my gateway into the game but not anymore I suppose.

And there will be a proper starter box in the future.

So, there's two version of Blessings Unheralded module. One of them is tagged as being part of Free RPG Day, the other - the one they're including the bundle - isn't.

The Free RPG Day mod has the map on the inside cover, the character tokens, the adventure, four character sheets (each four pages long: character illustration on the front, two pages of crunch, and character background on the back cover), and the core rules.

The other version of the mod has all six of the characters, the character tokens, the adventure, the core rules, and the map.

As for how it stack up to other Free RPG Day mods? Paizo's yearly offering is something in the We Be Goblins line. It's a sixteen page module. The are two pages of character sheets - four characters, a half-page given over to each one or a page each - and that 's... about it, really. There aren't any full size maps or character tokens.

Selling a Free RPG Day adventure isn't anything new, either. All of Paizo's Free RPG Day mods are available for sale on their webstore. Five bucks for a physical copy, or free as a PDF download.

Is there a decent place to get a summary/idea of how this game plays and what you can play within it etc? Me and my friends are looking to start up a PnP campaign again this August and trying to decide between this and Warhammer Fantasy. Guessing info is somewhere in this thread but 40 pages is a lot to sift through x_x.

The free rpg day adventure would have been a good start/introduction as a pdf but it's (for now) only a preorder bonus with an expensive bundle...

GenRifDrake wrote:Is there a decent place to get a summary/idea of how this game plays and what you can play within it etc? Me and my friends are looking to start up a PnP campaign again this August and trying to decide between this and Warhammer Fantasy. Guessing info is somewhere in this thread but 40 pages is a lot to sift through x_x.

Yeah, there is. On Ulisses NA's website is a five page web comic that serves as the introduction on how to play. Here's the link for ya: https://www.ulisses-us.com/comic/wg-example-p1/ Feel free to drop me a PM as well. I ran about five games of Wrath & Glory at Origins.

warboss wrote:The free rpg day adventure would have been a good start/introduction as a pdf but it's (for now) only a preorder bonus with an expensive bundle...

Ulisses NA already has plans to release Blessings Unheralded as a PDF. In keeping the Free RPG Day rules, they aren't able to release it until July.

A two page preview can be downloaded here: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/245436/Wrath--Glory-Preview--Core-Rules

It's.. two random pages that don't offer much.

...it's still better than nothing, and more than the Big U has given us to date though, so thanks for the head up!