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 Paradigm wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Its really bizarre given how much flak they got for Rey having all these abilities without any training to then have Yoda say that her training is complete after Luke refused to train her. I mean its going to look extremely bizarre if in episode 9 we have Rey training Jedi how to use Lightsabers when she just picked one up and hit Jedi Master level.

Which completely runs counter to the martial arts/Samurai film genre. I mean it is very hard to take seriously when even Rebels, a kids TV show gets that people need to be taught by somebody who knows what they are doing. I mean why does our role models philosophy have to be "I don't try. I don't practice. I don't train. But I win all the time." In any other film this would be blasted as overconfidence and ignorance of youth that would lead to failure.

Because both Yoda and Luke realise that ultimately, a connection to the Force (which Luke helps her with), some personal wisdom and a heart that's in the right place (which Rey has already demonstrated) is more important that a few thousand years of convoluted and outdated dogma and rules that comes packaged with traditional Jedi teachings.

They are trusting Rey, and just as crucially trusting The Force, which as Luke acknowledges does not, and never did, belong to the Jedi.

Rey takes the books implying she is going to redound the Jedi Order. Yoda says they should learn from there mistakes but not give up as Luke has done. Disney is not going to do away with the Jedi. It is a marketable brand. In practice I don't expect the Jedi to be radically different. I mean the Jedi never claimed to own the force this is RJ making stuff up because it sounds neat. Jedi have always been about letting the force flow through them. Sith dominate the force.

Well if they want it to be where learning all of a jedis skills takes no practice and training then they will have to be consistent with that going forward and Iam not convinced they will be consistent with it. Why would the Hedi even have Master Apprentice and Academies if learning the ways of the Force takes no training? How can Rey have an apprentice or train other Jedi?

There's no excuse for it. Rey should have had to practice with that Lightsaber. She cannot be a master duellist automatically and if all force users are on that level it wouldn't even make her unique.

The only thing worse than the movie is the fact people can't stop talking about the movie. It's like a social disease.

And I mean that. It's very hard talking to people about it because either they a) are reacting to the weak and shallow plot or b) recounting the special effects (for good or for bad), or c) responding to the diversity of the film.

The movie was designed to have this effect. And now the negative reactions are being blamed on the alt-right. The best thing anyone can do is not talk about it anymore.

Yes of course Rey has a special destiny. She is the main protagonist of a movie called The Force Awakens. If you (somehow) didn't get that the title was a reference to her before The Last Jedi (which title could also be and probably is a reference to her) then you are now on notice as she literally has a line about how the Force awakened inside of her. Additionally, Snoke says Rey is the light that has risen up to meet Kylo's darkness. Luke says that Rey has the same incredible power level as Kylo. Yoda says that, after no real training, Rey already knows everything contained in the Jedi holy scriptures.

So yes, while it is OK for the source of this great destiny NOT to be the identity of her parents, it still requires some explanation other than "we are making new Star Wars movies and need a super powered protagonist."

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only thing worse than the movie is the fact people can't stop talking about the movie.

For me, it's therapy.

 djones520 wrote:
Getting a bit away from the Rey discussion, I haven't seen to anyone else mention this, but did anyone catch at the ending, that slave boy who used the Force to pull the broom to him?

Here's a clip of that scene in its original cut:Or was it this one?Or this one?

The thing with the idea of destiny in Star Wars is that it's a two-way street. Some people are singled out by prophecies to be 'Chosen Ones' but just as often it's people's actions create the futures they are tied to. In trying to save Padme, Anakin kills her. In trying to stop Ben falling, Luke creates Kylo Ren. It's possible (hypothetically) that Rey, in being the one to oppose the potentially exceptionally powerful (as a 3rd generation Skywalker) Kylo Ren, is essentially being given a nudge by The Force to allow her to eventually overcome him (hence why the latent connection to the Force she's always felt only awakening on coming into conflict with Ren, and what Snoke says about Light rising to meet the Darkness).

I'm not saying this is absolutely the case. I'm just saying that Rey's apparent level of power may be a product of destiny (or the will of the Force) but only because she found herself in the place to be caught up in whatever this destiny is. In theory, this could be a Harry Potter/Neville Longbottom situation, where the prophecy and destiny could apply to multiple people, and it's the course of events and the actions of individuals that lead to one character becoming the focus of events over another. If' Poe and Finn had crashed on Canto Bight rather than Jakku, who's to say Rey's destiny wouldn't have fallen to the kid we see possibly using The Force at the end of TLJ?

Alternatively, If you take the view that the Light and Dark sides of The Force have a will of their own and acts through individuals rather than being an inert source of power that both Jedi and Sith tap into, I think it's reasonable to suggest that Rey's power is essentially the Light Side giving her a boost (over her latent sensitivity) to level the playing field against Kylo Ren. She is the new Chosen One because The Light Side has chosen her, but it chose her because she is the one person in a position to achieve that end most effectively. Her own actions create her destiny.

In either case, the fact Rey is the character at the centre of events is also the explanation for why she appears to be much more attuned and powerful that other characters with a similar level of training. Whether or not that's a weak explanation or lazy plotting is down to personal opinion, of course, but I imagine this will be explained more thoroughly in episode IX (and I have faith it'll do it in a way that is satisfying and logical, others may not).

Paradigm, your speculation is fine. The problem is not that the there is no possible reason for Rey's destiny. The problem is, again, that this is something the movie (now movies) needs to explain but doesn't. This isn't a matter of personal opinion. Neither TFA nor TLJ explain why she is the protagonist. The fact that she is the protagonist is not an explanation for why she is the protagonist.

She's the protagonist because she's at the centre of these events, and if you take her away they don't happen. Set a film a year before chance causes Kylo, Finn, Rey and a map to Luke Skywalker to come together and you've just got the story of the Resistance trying to survive against the First Order. But that's not a story worth telling, whereas the story of a hero who, through a twist of fate or the will of the Force (or the machinations of a wizard, or a quirk of prophecy, or a freak lab accident that gives them powers ect), comes from nothing to challenge a mighty power and defeat a villain is.

There is nothing special about Frodo Baggins, but the start of LotR centres on him because he's the one who happens to have the One Ring. He then makes himself extraordinary by volunteering to take the Ring to Mordor, but until that point there's no 'justification' for the narrative to focus on him beyond the fact that the world's events revolve around him and the trinket he carries. There is nothing special about Tony Stark until he builds a suit of armour in a cave and sets himself a mission. There is nothing special about MacBeth until his wife and the words of some Witches convince him to murder a king.

I'd say a protagonist is defined not by who they are, but the actions they take and the events they trigger. And so far, the actions Rey has taken and the events she's been involved in make her a valid character for the films to focus on.

Why does there have to be a reason for her destiny?

Palpatine wasn’t from some Legacy geneline. Nor Yoda. Not Obi-Wan. Nor Darth Maul. Nor Darth Tyranus.

The only two who are meant to be part of some prophecy are Anakin, Luke and Leia.

Han didn’t. Chewie doesn’t. Artoo doesn’t. Threepio doesn’t.

So why this focus when the only inference of a great destiny because bloodline is a bunch of half baked fan theories?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
She's the protagonist because she's at the centre of these events, and if you take her away they don't happen. Set a film a year before chance causes Kylo, Finn, Rey and a map to Luke Skywalker to come together and you've just got the story of the Resistance trying to survive against the First Order. But that's not a story worth telling, whereas the story of a hero who, through a twist of fate or the will of the Force (or the machinations of a wizard, or a quirk of prophecy, or a freak lab accident that gives them powers ect), comes from nothing to challenge a mighty power and defeat a villain is.

There is nothing special about Frodo Baggins, but the start of LotR centres on him because he's the one who happens to have the One Ring. He then makes himself extraordinary by volunteering to take the Ring to Mordor, but until that point there's no 'justification' for the narrative to focus on him beyond the fact that the world's events revolve around him and the trinket he carries. There is nothing special about Tony Stark until he builds a suit of armour in a cave and sets himself a mission. There is nothing special about MacBeth until his wife and the words of some Witches convince him to murder a king.

I'd say a protagonist is defined not by who they are, but the actions they take and the events they trigger. And so far, the actions Rey has taken and the events she's been involved in make her a valid character for the films to focus on.

Bloody good points all.

It’s like the true definition of bravery.

A person who feels no fear can not be brave. Ever.

Bravery is doing The Right Thing despite your fear. It’s about pushing your fear to one side and Doing What Needs Done.

Superman is heroic not because of his powers, but because he exercises such restraint. He could easily take over the world, but doesn’t. His heroism is in limiting his role to that of a defender. He doesn’t pick the fight. He stands up to those who would pick on those weaker.

Paradigm and MDG, you both keep dodging the actual issue.

Frodo doesn't need to have his magical powers explained because he doesn't have any. Rey does. If you want to use Frodo as an example, you have to imagine a LotR movie where there is no explanation as to how Frodo got the Ring.

But we don't even have to go down that (bizarre, intentionally misleading) analogy, or any other similar one (Macbeth, really?). I am not the one demanding that Rey have a special destiny. The fething movies constantly go on and on about how she does, up to and including both of the film's titles being a reference to her.

This is why the movies need to explain it. How they do it is a separate issue. For the third time, it's fine that she isn't [established character's] family member.

Rey is Force Sensitive - and powerfully so.

There you go. That’s it. That’s literally it.

You’re also missing the reasons why she was able to take Kylo in TFA. Snoke covers it.

You’re also making the assumption she has absolutely no combat experience - as if we know the entirety of her history prior to TFA to rule that out. Which we don’t. At all.

You’re also assuming Kylo Ren is actually a competent Lightsabre wielder. He doesn’t seem to be....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You don’t need to be born into a Great Family to have a special destiny. Until you explain why that’s a necessity, the onus remains on you here.

 Paradigm wrote:

Alternatively, If you take the view that the Light and Dark sides of The Force have a will of their own and acts through individuals rather than being an inert source of power that both Jedi and Sith tap into, I think it's reasonable to suggest that Rey's power is essentially the Light Side giving her a boost (over her latent sensitivity) to level the playing field against Kylo Ren. She is the new Chosen One because The Light Side has chosen her, but it chose her because she is the one person in a position to achieve that end most effectively. Her own actions create her destiny.

Nope. Her actions were: try to run away and go back home. Then she was kidnapped, and only then did she get her power up and instant force skills [that she had never seen or interacted with in any way at all (mind trick and etc)]. Her actions had zero to do with anything, Emo Ren just kept chasing her (instead of the droid carrying the actual goal). It was nice to see her escape on her own rather than be rescued like a passive prop, but that was the only time she 'took action' rather than reacting.

But frankly she could have run away and left Finn literally holding the lightsaber, and he could have been the new force user after he failed to... run away. Very little would change, except TLJ wouldn't have an excess character to stuff in a pointless B plot.

As an aside, It seems weird that the two major characters in TFA on the good side wanted to nope on out of the conflict (and the story), and pretty much got stuck in it against their will.

In either case, the fact Rey is the character at the centre of events is also the explanation for why she appears to be much more attuned and powerful that other characters with a similar level of training.

No, it is not. She is more attuned and powerful (well, that is to say, she's the last non-dark force user standing, and nothing explains her post kidnapping abilities), and she's... present for the center of events (the change in the first order's leadership, Luke actually doing something). Neither fact is an explanation for anything, let alone each other.


@Grotsnik- because it is a DESTINY. It's built up as some grand important thing- the lightsaber calls to her and shows her visions, the bad guys magically know about her and want to kidnap her. She's vetted as already inherently/magically knowing everything worth knowing in jedi lore. The films very firmly establish her as not just an average person pulled into the plot. Then contrary to everything shown so far, TLJ pulls a total reversal and tells, not shows that she's nothing special after all, despite other elements of the same film that actually do show that she is.
It doesn't have to be a bloodline thing, it comes with the crappy writing clearly giving her a Chosen One tag. Though frankly any number of 'half-baked' bloodline fan theories would have been better than the mess of contradictions and storytelling gaffs that Johnson presents as a film.

Again, Luke used the force in ways he’d never been shown.

The totality of his training with Obi-Wan was a short trip through Hyperspace with Obi-Wan.

Yet in ESB (shortly before he sees Obi-Wans spirit for the first time, and is incredulous) he can force summon the lightsabre. Over the Death Star, he follows an incredibly vague ‘use the force’ suggestion.

Here’s an example, to do my job, I use Discovery. You want to do what I do? Use Discovery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Rey?

As the darkness rises, so the light to meet it.

That’s why Snoke wanted her. To corrupt her. To turn her. To remove a potential and potent enemy.

Why it’s her doesn’t matter. Not one jot. It has to be someone. And it’s Rey. No explanation needed.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re also making the assumption

Was this post supposed to be a response to me or someone else? I have to assume, someone else. Because you certainly didn't address anything that I posted nor does your response reflect you even read what I posted.

As Voss also explained, The structure, imagery, and even the dialog of TFA (and TLJ!) all indicate that Rey is special. But neither TFA nor TLJ address why. This is a problem because her being special is constantly important to the story/ies.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only thing worse than the movie is the fact people can't stop talking about the movie. It's like a social disease.

And I mean that. It's very hard talking to people about it because either they a) are reacting to the weak and shallow plot or b) recounting the special effects (for good or for bad), or c) responding to the diversity of the film.

The movie was designed to have this effect. And now the negative reactions are being blamed on the alt-right. The best thing anyone can do is not talk about it anymore.

Where is anyone trying to tie negative reactions to the Alt Right? That's ridiculous and they should be ridiculed once then ignored forever.

I agree with Mark Hamill that Rian Johnson screwed up Luke Skywalker. It just seems to me that Rian had a plot idea, and used Luke as a prop to move that plot along, and not really having an understanding of the character.

And as much as it pisses me off, I also have to agree with Mark that this isn't about his Luke anymore, and its a Luke for a different generation. Star Wars has disappointed me a lot more than it has impressed me since the original Trilogy came out, and I just have to accept Stars Wars is basically Hunger Games and Divergent or whatever that crap is. There really is nothing revolutionary coming out of TFA and TLJ, and aside from the nostalgia, aren't that exciting. They are ok movies when averaged out.

To be honest Marvel Studios is doing far better with their movie universe than the guys doing Star Wars. And with Marvel, they are creating movies about the characters THEY KNOW. Which is why the imitation Fox films haven't felt like the real thing. Neither do these Star Wars films.

So in my Star Wars universe, the story begins with Rogue One and ends with A New Hope. I love Empire Strikes back, but don't even need it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Why it’s her doesn’t matter. Not one jot. It has to be someone. And it’s Rey. No explanation needed.

For a competent and well told story, yes, it does. Especially when it's going out of its way to tell you there is an explanation.

The totality of his training with Obi-Wan was a short trip through Hyperspace with Obi-Wan.
Over the Death Star, he follows an incredibly vague ‘use the force’ suggestion.

In case you missed it, his real, actual training with Obi-Wan on the Falcon was learning specifically how to let the force guide his actions. Despite Luke's earlier boast that the shot 'wasn't impossible, because wamp rats,' Wedge was totally right. So he had to listen to Obi-Wan and rely on the force to guide him, exactly as he did to block the shots from the drone. Exactly as he was trained to do, and with the (ghostly) support of his teacher, who deliberately let himself get killed for a reason that involved Luke. (Hence deliberately dropping his guard while staring at Luke)

Did someone explicitly show him how to move a stick a foot and a half? No. Is it a big deal? Not really. Had he burned it down with Force Lightning or Mind Raped the wampa, I'd have questions.

Here’s an example, to do my job, I use Discovery. You want to do what I do? Use Discovery.

I have no idea what this is supposed to be an example of. Presumably you had training, took a course, or otherwise learned how to 'use Discovery.' You didn't just wander out of the desert knowing Discovery.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re also making the assumption

Was this post supposed to be a response to me or someone else? I have to assume, someone else. Because you certainly didn't address anything that I posted nor does your response reflect you even read what I posted.

As Voss also explained, The structure, imagery, and even the dialog of TFA (and TLJ!) all indicate that Rey is special. But neither TFA nor TLJ address why. This is a problem because her being special is constantly important to the story/ies.

Because the why doesn’t matter. At all.

I really don’t know why you can’t grasp this in your cerebral tentacle.

As Snoke says, as the darkness rises, so the light to meet it.

Why Rey? Well, why not? You’re the one insisting there must be a bloodline for someone to be important, despite only three people in the entire saga being examples of that - and they’re not even the most powerful of the players (they’re up there sure, but Palpatine and Yoda wee all over them in terms of raw power and political nous etc)

So come on. Why does Rey need to be from a great family type thing to be who she is?

Why does someone’s destiny depend solely upon who their ancestors were? Until you can state that case clearly, and with supporting evidence, your assertion holds no water.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why it’s her doesn’t matter. Not one jot. It has to be someone. And it’s Rey. No explanation needed.

Wrong. Explanation very much needed. For the simple reason that characters consist of characterization. Take a moment to consider what you are arguing. "It has to be someone." So the only reason this character exists is because Disney wants to make money on Star Wars. If it's not Rey/Disney Ridley then it's some other actress playing some other part. THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. There is no reason to care about someone who is literally interchangeable with any other person.

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Why it’s her doesn’t matter. Not one jot. It has to be someone. And it’s Rey. No explanation needed.

For a competent and well told story, yes, it does. Especially when it's going out of its way to tell you there is an explanation.

The totality of his training with Obi-Wan was a short trip through Hyperspace with Obi-Wan.
Over the Death Star, he follows an incredibly vague ‘use the force’ suggestion.

In case you missed it, his real, actual training with Obi-Wan on the Falcon was learning specifically how to let the force guide his actions. Despite his earlier boast that the shot 'wasn't impossible, because wamp rats,' Wedge was totally right. So he had to listen to Obi-Wan and rely on the force to guide him, exactly as he did to block the shots from the drone. Exactly as he was trained to do, and with the (ghostly) support of his teacher, who deliberately let himself get killed for a reason that involved Luke. (Hence deliberately dropping his guard while staring at Luke)

Did someone explicitly show him how to move a stick a foot and a half? No. Is it a big deal? Not really. Had he burned it down with Force Lightning or Mind Raped the wampa, I'd have questions.

Here’s an example, to do my job, I use Discovery. You want to do what I do? Use Discovery.

I have no idea what this is supposed to be an example of. Presumably you had training, took a course, or otherwise learned how to 'use Discovery.' You didn't just wander out of the desert knowing Discovery.

Yes. have had training in how to best use Discovery. But I’m not telling you what that entails, or even what Discovery actually is. But just like Obi-Wan, I’ll give you a vague idea. It’s a database of information. Now. [I]Use Discovery.

So come on. Why does Rey need to be from a great family type thing to be who she is?

No one here is saying she is. I'm not, and Manchu specifically said 'not bloodline' multiple times

That doesn't change the fact that the movies explicitly tag her as a special destined Chosen One, and then contrarily refuse to address it.

But again, no one is claiming what you're arguing against.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re the one insisting there must be a bloodline for someone to be important

Or actually ...

 Manchu wrote:
I don't mind that Rey's parents are just failures who sold her. It's fine with me that her DNA is not the cause of her destiny.

 Manchu wrote:
it is OK for the source of this great destiny NOT to be the identity of her parents

 Manchu wrote:
For the third time, it's fine that she isn't [established character's] family member.

You are bending over so far backward to defend this basic failure of these movies to explain an element that they constantly call out as important that you are losing the ability to understand simple points ITT.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why it’s her doesn’t matter. Not one jot. It has to be someone. And it’s Rey. No explanation needed.

Wrong. Explanation very much needed. For the simple reason that characters consist of characterization. Take a moment to consider what you are arguing. "It has to be someone." So the only reason this character exists is because Disney wants to make money on Star Wars. If it's not Rey/Disney Ridley then it's some other actress playing some other part. THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. There is no reason to care about someone who is literally interchangeable with any other person.

Bollocks. And massive hairy donkey bollocks at that.

The explanation comes from Snoke - as the darkness rises, so the light to meet it.

The light side will always choose it’s champion. Why it chooses a specific champion is impossible to say, because the force itself can’t really be defined. Even it’s name is vague.

There’s a lot of info in TLJ that you’re just ignoring. Luke’s lesson about balance, and Rey’s explanation thereon. That much of Rey and Kylo’s motivations are based on a certain point of view

Go back and watch it again. The answers are there. You’ve either missed them (and there is a lot to take in to be sure), or you’ve decided they’re not proper answers because they don’t fit your own pre-conceived notion.

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

In case you missed it, his real, actual training with Obi-Wan on the Falcon was learning specifically how to let the force guide his actions. Despite his earlier boast that the shot 'wasn't impossible, because wamp rats,' Wedge was totally right. So he had to listen to Obi-Wan and rely on the force to guide him, exactly as he did to block the shots from the drone. Exactly as he was trained to do, and with the (ghostly) support of his teacher, who deliberately let himself get killed for a reason that involved Luke. (Hence deliberately dropping his guard while staring at Luke)

Yes. have had training in how to best use Discovery. But I’m not telling you what that entails, or even what Discovery actually is. But just like Obi-Wan, I’ll give you a vague idea. It’s a database of information. Now. [I]Use Discovery.

No. You're ignoring what is actually being presented to you.
Luke is using the force as Obi-Wan trained him to use the force.
Rey is using the force because magic.

You’ve either missed them (and there is a lot to take in to be sure), or you’ve decided they’re not proper answers because they don’t fit your own pre-conceived notion

Snerk.

Look, you can’t have it both ways.

You can’t say her backstory doesn’t matter, then demand an explanation as to why she’s this generations Light Side Champion.

She just is. The why isn’t important. At all.

Her destiny is to be the light sides champion. That’s it. She’s been picked. There’s no explanation needed other than ‘as the darkness rises, so the light to meet it’. The dark side has its champion. And now does the light side.

KTG17 wrote:
I just have to accept Stars Wars is basically Hunger Games and Divergent or whatever that crap is.

This is what I'm beginning to realize, too. There's nothing special about Star Wars anymore. It's just another disposable product. I don't know why I expected any different after the Prequels.

Obi-Wan taught Luke absolutely feth all.

He told him his take on The Force. And put him up against a remote. And. That’s. It. that’s the sum total of his tutelage under Obi-Wan. There’s no time for anything else. He gives him a lightsabre, but doesn’t show him how to fight with it. At all. There’s no time. No opportunity. Not between ANH and Bespin. At all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You can’t say her backstory doesn’t matter, then demand an explanation as to why she’s this generations Light Side Champion.

WTF. I have been arguing all along that her backstory DOES matter. I just don't think her backstory must be, oh her dad is Obi Wan or Luke or some other SW VIP. It would be fine if the movies explained what this Awakening thing is about, without reference to parent/child or otherwise familial relationships. That's what's missing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The explanation comes from Snoke - as the darkness rises, so the light to meet it.

He says a line that explains nothing. Why is darkness rising? Kylo Ren is the rising darkness? I thought his whole deal was that he wasn't sufficiently dark. If Rey is powerful because Kylo Ren is powerful why isn't she powerful until she meets him? Snoke's line is not a solution; it's part of the problem. It's another confirmation that Rey is important without explaining why.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The light side will always choose it’s champion.

There are Force Champions? The Force is a sentient thing that chooses Champions? Where is this explained?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s a lot of info in TLJ that you’re just ignoring.

You say I'm ignoring Luke and Rey talking about the balance of the Force. Can you please explain how their talk explains why Rey is important? And could you also explain why Luke, unlike you, does not come to the conclusion that Rey is the Light Side Champion?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Look, you can’t have it both ways.

You can’t say her backstory doesn’t matter, then demand an explanation as to why she’s this generations Light Side Champion.

Yes, I can. The lack of explanation is part of why her backstory doesn't matter.
At this stage the new generation of characters are Interchangeable Emmas. They have no depth and no point and no ability to accomplish anything narratively satisfying.

She just is. The why isn’t important. At all.

Her destiny is to be the light sides champion. That’s it. She’s been picked. There’s no explanation needed other than ‘as the darkness rises, so the light to meet it’. The dark side has its champion. And now does the light side.

I'm going to laugh and laugh and laugh if Rey turns out to be a complete red herring and it turns out that Finn fighting with the lightsaber in TFA is what really mattered, and Episode 9 disposes of Rey as easily as 8 did with Snoke.

'Why isn't important' is probably the most offensive thing anyone could possibly tell me in regards to storytelling. Even if it isn't a major point or dealt with for a significant amount of time, it needs to be there and understood by the storyteller at the bare minimum. Otherwise the storyteller becomes a simple demagogue yelling at his mindless followers to obey.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Obi-Wan taught Luke absolutely feth all.

He told him his take on The Force. And put him up against a remote. And. That’s. It. that’s the sum total of his tutelage under Obi-Wan. There’s no time for anything else. He gives him a lightsabre, but doesn’t show him how to fight with it. At all. There’s no time. No opportunity. Not between ANH and Bespin. At all.

Ugh. You're as bad as Abrams. Time and Distance are things that exist- Tatooine and Alderaan are not next door. Han (and the audience) are brought in at the end of the lesson, skipping the boring parts (of both the lesson and the journey) for the material that is actually relevant.

So Obi Wan is actually teaching him to stretch out with his feelings and let the force guide him, which Luke does, agrees he does ("I could almost see the remote"), and we witness tangible results that he does (blocking all the shots of the remote while blinded). That you want to believe this doesn't happen is not my problem.

Voss wrote:
Otherwise the storyteller becomes a simple demagogue yelling at his mindless followers to obey.

This also characterizes MDS's arguments. He flat out admits that Rey is liquid with any other potential character but demands that we care about her anyway. Because a corporation chose to (not) tell the story like that.

You know what, there is no point arguing with idiots.

You can’t even nail down your own standpoint, and seem to shift it whenever a counter point is raised.

One, last, parting shot......Han’s line as that scene opens? ‘You can forget about those Imperial slugs, I told you we’d outrun ‘em’.

And with that, I’m out. I shall save my explaining the obvious to the wilfully contrary for when I’m actually being paid to deal with it, yeah?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Obi-Wan taught Luke absolutely feth all.

He told him his take on The Force. And put him up against a remote. And. That’s. It. that’s the sum total of his tutelage under Obi-Wan. There’s no time for anything else. He gives him a lightsabre, but doesn’t show him how to fight with it. At all. There’s no time. No opportunity. Not between ANH and Bespin. At all.

He taught him how to block shots behind a blast visor.


Besides I think your taking it the wrong way, Old Ben and Yoda didn't need to teach Luke how to fight. They taught him how to feel the force, then the force does all the fighting for him and he becomes a conduit for it.

Then he gets his butt pummelled by Vader because that's not enough. Op when he kicks Vaders butt back, he's an angry force conduit. So he's actually using the force for his own gains.