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I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.

What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?

I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?

 Therion wrote:
I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.

What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?

I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?

You're right, nothing in this codex is very good unless you play them in a vacuum or against opponents that use garbage like Tactical squads :p GW simply doesn't understand how to make elite units feel powerful or useful (hint: increasing attacks by 1 or 2 isn't it). I imagine you'll see mainly people throwing the vexilla in with guard or maybe using a single unit of custodes as assault protection (Unsure why anyone needs protection against something that is so ineffective tho)

 Kirasu wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.

What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?

I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?

You're right, nothing in this codex is very good unless you play them in a vacuum or against opponents that use garbage like Tactical squads :p GW simply doesn't understand how to make elite units feel powerful or useful (hint: increasing attacks by 1 or 2 isn't it). I imagine you'll see mainly people throwing the vexilla in with guard or maybe using a single unit of custodes as assault protection (Unsure why anyone needs protection against something that is so ineffective tho)

Or mainly people playing pure Custodes armies because they like the models and the rules in more casual or relaxed competitive tournaments and local meta? I know in USA you have the ITC and a lot of competitive scenes, etc... but don't extrapolate that to the rest of the world.

 Therion wrote:
I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.

What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?

I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?

Culexus and Eversor hit like wet noodles and the Eversor is way less survivable than the bikes are; they are also both massively slower, sammael is less survivable and more expensive for doing very marginally more damage(provided he risks killing himself), Talon master is much MUCH less survivable, more expensive, and does overall very similar damage to a custodes biker. And part of the point of taking the custodes bikers is that you WANT your opponent to shoot at them. Please, feel free to blow 500pts of lascannons on my 160pt model.

The custodes bike captains are pretty much the perfect combination of speed, survivability and DPS...provided you run them either in a custodes army or in an index army where who the warlord is doesn't matter. 1 Custodes bike with the 3++ relic bike and the 5++ warlord trait is a great workhorse in an imperium army that doesn't have very good relics/warlord traits.

Talonmasters with the heavenfall blade are comparable in combat damage to a biker shield captain with lance and talonmasters can outshoot a biker captain.

But talonmasters can't shoot if they advance to get their jink save. And they have no invul save in combat. And they have 1 less wound and 1 less attack most likely.

The heavenfall blade talonmaster does belong in every competitive dark angels list, but you only get one of him due to needing a relic to be viable in combat.

And to the WLT point, the idea with taking custodes WLT is to maximize their power. I have run Grand Strategist in my competitive lists since the day it came out. I know how useful it is. Not having grand strategist hurts, but I think overall the WLT on the custodes gives more because it gets another relic and the useful WLT switching strategem of the custodes. You are effectively choosing between two things:

(1) tougher bikers
(2) 5-6 more CP

Perhaps you can get more out of the bikers with more CP, but I think you need first turn durability more than those 5 more CP than the 10 you start off with (after relics).

 Galas wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.

What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?

I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?

You're right, nothing in this codex is very good unless you play them in a vacuum or against opponents that use garbage like Tactical squads :p GW simply doesn't understand how to make elite units feel powerful or useful (hint: increasing attacks by 1 or 2 isn't it). I imagine you'll see mainly people throwing the vexilla in with guard or maybe using a single unit of custodes as assault protection (Unsure why anyone needs protection against something that is so ineffective tho)

Or mainly people playing pure Custodes armies because they like the models and the rules in more casual or relaxed competitive tournaments and local meta? I know in USA you have the ITC and a lot of competitive scenes, etc... but don't extrapolate that to the rest of the world.

Heck don't even extrapolate to the US in general. Local meta wreaks havoc on what should or should not be competitive all the time.

I hang at a store that sends 2 teams to ATC every year as well as maybe a half dozen to the other major nationals. But they don't define our local tourney scene.

Personally I'm planning on expanding my custodes because of Dave Taylor's 2004 custodes force that was totally converted (and that I missed out on a charity auction back in 2010 when I was in Afghaniland, such rage). I think GW failed us on the ability to produce kits with far more options like are available to heresy custodes. (anyone wanna argue whether or not melta or adrastite spears would've answered new custodes anti tank issues?)

I'd complain about GW fixing this "one day" but lets face it, its been what 20 years since FW became a thing? (I remember them as far back as 2000 but I wasn't here before then), I don't think they'll ever get their together.

Wulfey wrote:
The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.

if that turns out true I'm starting a new army and buying 6 boxes...

Does anyone know if the Jetbike Captain can take the axe?

DFGDave wrote:
Does anyone know if the Jetbike Captain can take the axe?

Only spear in the kit. So a safe bet is no

I've just ordered the three dreadnoughts from FW, get in before they run out of stock

Think I'll just try and convert my plastic contemptor if the need arises - I don't see any use for him forthcoming unless there is a significant points drop lined up for him in the codex.

Also I wouldn't hold your breath on the rules, its coming from FW after all

It is a bit disappointing that bikes are so obviously the best choice and GW has made all the other stuff essentially overpriced in comparison to them. I was hoping for more depth in the AC codex. Hopefully FW will bring some much needed diversity, otherwise everyone will just be playing golden white scars.

It's also pretty stupid that this "elite" army - where every individual is a strategist - has no real way to recycle CPs or create more of them; while they pretty much need to rely on them to do their crazy cool things. This is an incredibly dumb approach for an "elite" army and just borderline stupid design philosophy. Larger formations should have less CPs (such as AM) and elite units should have way more CPs to represent their tactical flexibility and agility compared to enormous thundering and bureaucratic warmachines. Why didn't GW EVER address this obvious angle?

So bottom line is, if I don't include at least 2 AM barebones btns, I will just be left with a bland super biker army.

Has anyone built the Sagitarrum squad from Forgeworld?

I'm not a big fan of most resin/plastic hybrids, as I find the gluing to be a faff - especially when it's trying to get arms to line up properly with the weapons. Superglue is unforgiving, and the parts look too small for epoxy glue.

I've got a set of guns, but I was waiting until getting the rest of my Custodes stuff before putting it all together. Also waiting for the special Guardian Blades FW previewed ages ago.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Also waiting for the special Guardian Blades FW previewed ages ago.

What are these?

Ones with frikkin' laser or melta in place of the usual dakka.

Oh, and Jetbike box visually confirmed to contain 3, and priced at £35.

They really, really want me to do Custards, don't they?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Has anyone built the Sagitarrum squad from Forgeworld?

I'm not a big fan of most resin/plastic hybrids, as I find the gluing to be a faff - especially when it's trying to get arms to line up properly with the weapons. Superglue is unforgiving, and the parts look too small for epoxy glue.

I liked the idea of Sagitarrum, but not the price, or the resin. I simply bought up all the AoS Stormcast Judicator bits in my store's bits box. They fit nicely on Custodes models, and if you leave the "bow" bits off the crossbow, it looks remarkably like a highly ornate rifle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ones with frikkin' laser or melta in place of the usual dakka.

I didn't even know of those. Melta Guardian spears????? That goes a long way to solving Custodes problem with vehicles and ranged anti-armor.

 cuda1179 wrote:


I didn't even know of those. Melta Guardian spears????? That goes a long way to solving Custodes problem with vehicles and ranged anti-armor.

In HH terms one is 12", S5 AP2 armour bane instant death gets hot so in 8th would be 12", S5, AP-3, melta rule without range and plasma blow up. Other is basically 6" melta gun.

1st one might not get 40k rules though as adrhaite weapons are pretty much non-existant in 40k fluff. It was seriously limited in HH due to the effects of it or something to that effect.

Allarus Custodian Rules and Sprue Pics + More

http://natfka.blogspot.de/2018/01/allarus-custodian-rules-and-sprue-pics.html

 nordsturmking wrote:
Allarus Custodian Rules and Sprue Pics + More

http://natfka.blogspot.de/2018/01/allarus-custodian-rules-and-sprue-pics.html

They are up on the store page, since last week. With high definition picture of the sprue, and price.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Adeptus-Custodes-Allarus-Custodians-2018

Chopstick wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
Allarus Custodian Rules and Sprue Pics + More

http://natfka.blogspot.de/2018/01/allarus-custodian-rules-and-sprue-pics.html

They are up on the store page, since last week. With high definition picture of the sprue, and price.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Adeptus-Custodes-Allarus-Custodians-2018

I know but not with rules.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for a Custodes Upgrade sprue (like Ultramarines, Dark Angels, etc.) Having some stand-out pieces would make your characters much easier to identify.

Speaking of "Local Meta" - Starting to ponder how this army is going to do against my Regular Opponents (note none of us are exactly Comp Players, we play for fun):

Dark Angels Ravenwing - A bit scary, fast and very shooty. Could go badly.

Blood Angels - Bring it on. Though Psychic Dreadnought's gonna be painful. Still, they'll hurt a bit more in melee than most Marines, but the point is they'll be COMING to Melee.

Daemons (ALL the Daemons, Seriously, this dude has EVERY Daemon, different list every week, it's glorious) - Gonna depend, but less scary than most, because they'll be coming to me due to lack of shootiness. Though the mortal wounds 3 of the gods pump out will be scary.

Tau - May as well bring my Eldar if I know I'm playing these guys. A high str Gunline with lots of shots? Tanks with Longstrike and thus super good BS? Mortal Wounds out the wazoo from Missile Pods? Hard Counter to Custodes. (at least the way my buddy makes his lists)


That amounts to my regular opponents. Naturally there are others I might play from time to time, but those are the ones I'll be playing at least once a month or more (Since we try to play every saturday).

What are people's thoughts on other armies?

 Dulahan wrote:
Speaking of "Local Meta" - Starting to ponder how this army is going to do against my Regular Opponents (note none of us are exactly Comp Players, we play for fun):

Dark Angels Ravenwing - A bit scary, fast and very shooty. Could go badly.

Blood Angels - Bring it on. Though Psychic Dreadnought's gonna be painful. Still, they'll hurt a bit more in melee than most Marines, but the point is they'll be COMING to Melee.

Daemons (ALL the Daemons, Seriously, this dude has EVERY Daemon, different list every week, it's glorious) - Gonna depend, but less scary than most, because they'll be coming to me due to lack of shootiness. Though the mortal wounds 3 of the gods pump out will be scary.

Tau - May as well bring my Eldar if I know I'm playing these guys. A high str Gunline with lots of shots? Tanks with Longstrike and thus super good BS? Mortal Wounds out the wazoo from Missile Pods? Hard Counter to Custodes. (at least the way my buddy makes his lists)


That amounts to my regular opponents. Naturally there are others I might play from time to time, but those are the ones I'll be playing at least once a month or more (Since we try to play every saturday).

What are people's thoughts on other armies?

While N&R often derails every other post, better posted to https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/18.page

Tactics

After watching the full codex review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ), I honestly don't know about this army. GW's pricing of units means almost everyone is just going to be running bikes instead of a mix of units.

There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.

There isn't even an option to advance and charge with the bikes; so even those are kind of "eh" in the feeling unique department. Thus, what we're left with is a bland number of tactical options and the necessity to ally in order to use bland strategems.

For a hyper elite unit, GW really missed a great opportunity here. They're just tough, but definitely not unique or special (other than their lack of options, cool models and insane cost). Anyone has any interesting tactical insights that might pursuade me otherwise?

Well, you're probably not wrong. Honestly.

They're very much a Passion Army, I think. Or meant to supplement a different Imperial force.

For one, I think a small to medium sized detachment in a Primaris Force would be an excellent complementary unit to make up for their lack of dedicated, good melee. A kill squad helping the guard would be brutal. Most Marine lists probably don't need them, but likely aren't hurt by using them either. Mechanicum might see some real benefits by taking a small detachment of them.

EDIT: What Forgeworld stuff gets transferred (whenever that ends up being) is gonna have a big effect on things too.

Gryphonne wrote:
After watching the full codex review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ), I honestly don't know about this army. GW's pricing of units means almost everyone is just going to be running bikes instead of a mix of units.

There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.

There isn't even an option to advance and charge with the bikes; so even those are kind of "eh" in the feeling unique department. Thus, what we're left with is a bland number of tactical options and the necessity to ally in order to use bland strategems.

For a hyper elite unit, GW really missed a great opportunity here. They're just tough, but definitely not unique or special (other than their lack of options, cool models and insane cost). Anyone has any interesting tactical insights that might pursuade me otherwise?

Foot custodes are flatly non-viable in a competitive environment. Good tournament lists either shoot really hard, have lots of bodies, or are very mobile. Foot custodes have no real delivery option that isn't relying on a 9" deepstrike charge. If your opponent brings screening units (like all tournament players do), fishing for a 9" charge won't even do anything even if you get it. Foot custodes also have no answer to lots of bodies. Their shooting is bizarrely low volume, low rend, but 2 damage? Also, 3 wound models are basically useless in a meta dominated by dark reapers doing 3 damage every time you fail a save. And if your opponent has models that move faster than 6", your foot custodes won't even catch them. Their melee damage is a huge amount of their points cost and they don't have a way to force that melee (contrast this with bloodletter bombs, eversors, and blood angels having access to 3d6 deepstrike charges). And a minimum cost troops squad is 152 points, so you are not getting any CP.


However, bike custodes are pretty beef. Either 90 points for 4W, 4++, 4A or 160 points for 7W, 3++ (relics), 5A. They reroll wounds on charges and reroll all their hits on a 2+ rerolling 1s. And hurricane bolters are always winners. And they have 14" movement so they can contest the midboard and consistently threaten a turn 2 charge. I could see these guys working great with a guard brigade that is stuffed with mortar teams. Mortars and hurricane bolters clear your opponents screen, bikers bring the pain to tough stuff. You can either run 3-5 biker captains to abuse relics and WLTs, or you can run 3 biker squads and a biker captain and use the 5+/5+ from the guard to keep the counter charges coming from your bikes. I do not believe that the rest of the codex is viable in a competitive environment without a guard brigade, or two guard battalions.


EDIT: based on some spreadsheet math, you can have a two detachment list with the following:

2x biker captains, both 3++
3x3 biker squads
1x1 vexila guy (-1 to hit)

AM brigade
3x commanders, 3x astropaths, 6x guards with mortars, 3x flamer sentinels, and 5x mortar teams

That is a serious list. Sure, the guard squads are going to get massacred, but those bikers are going to hit like trucks and be at -1 to be shot first turn. And you have 13 base CP with 5+/5+. Buy two relics for the bike captains, down to 10CP. Buy relic of lost cadia if you are up against chaos for 9CP. That leaves plenty of CP to do the counter charge strategem every time your opponent tries anything in the charge phase. You have 11 hurricane bolters and 21 mortar tubes, so your opponents screen is going to evaporate. 3 baneblade lists will be tough as you would struggle against T8 shooting. But at the same time, the thing that will kill the baneblades is at -1 to be hit ... so ...

I think you can only buy relics for the warlord's faction, so you couldn't be that flexible.

I'd also say footage, but not Allarus, are O.K. Foot Custodes are trying to be a beta strike army. They need the -1 hit aura and to camp midfield objectives. They could be competitive with allies.

Gryphonne wrote:
There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.

This is pretty much a universal problem for all the elite armies. I think the theory is that elite armies spend their fewer points on more meaningful rolls, but in practice, a Guard Brigade gets more quality rolls anyway and the elite army is really in need of the extra CP. I'm not sure how to actually write a system that works that way, but I do think the Patrol detachment should be worth at least 1 CP if not 2. Trying to make a Battalion happen in an army with troops and HQs that start at 100 points without gear is pretty crippling. Patrols are lot more manageable, but 0 CP just compounds the issue that lead you to a Patrol in the first place.

 LunarSol wrote:

Gryphonne wrote:
There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.

This is pretty much a universal problem for all the elite armies. I think the theory is that elite armies spend their fewer points on more meaningful rolls, but in practice, a Guard Brigade gets more quality rolls anyway and the elite army is really in need of the extra CP. I'm not sure how to actually write a system that works that way, but I do think the Patrol detachment should be worth at least 1 CP if not 2. Trying to make a Battalion happen in an army with troops and HQs that start at 100 points without gear is pretty crippling. Patrols are lot more manageable, but 0 CP just compounds the issue that lead you to a Patrol in the first place.

I'd suggest reducing the amount of points certain detachments give, and replace those missing CP's by stating you automatically get say 1 or 2 per complete 500 points of game play, so each army gets 4 at 1000pts, 8 at 2000 etc, then your detachments etc give less. Brigades will still reward by giving more CP points than an elite army using a smaller detachment(s), but smaller elite armies will have substantial access to a decent amount of CP's that they struggle to have now.