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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, it really looks rough. Using canticles and strategem, Admech can get 2+ armor saves. It really makes them very hard to bring down with shooting. But they themselves are so shooty they can kill DG before we get into melee because we are slow.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I can't believe 9th edition barely made it six months before coming apart at the seams. The back-to-back-to-back of Dark Angels, Drukhari, and Ad-Mech mean that those first few books are now screwed until the circle of life comes around again.

Necron seemed decent at launch, and Death Guard was given a healthy, strong, book... and now I am back to my two favorite armies being functionally dead weight at tournaments vs. power-gamers.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Has anyone here made use of Mortarion's phosphex bombs in a game? They strike me as being a pretty solid horde killer.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I can't believe 9th edition barely made it six months before coming apart at the seams. The back-to-back-to-back of Dark Angels, Drukhari, and Ad-Mech mean that those first few books are now screwed until the circle of life comes around again.

Necron seemed decent at launch, and Death Guard was given a healthy, strong, book... and now I am back to my two favorite armies being functionally dead weight at tournaments vs. power-gamers.


Well, to be fair, Drukhari are op right now. It will probably get toned down later. Not everyone plays Drukhari or Admech too. I actually managed to face pretty competitive lists of all sorts in the past two months because of a league I participated in. If the terrain is decent, DG is great against many factions. Definitely will get in a good game. Only certain matchups like Admech and Drukhari right now are just really challenging. On Admech, I am really struggling right now to figure out what to do to handle them. Like a squad of 20 rangers can literally use wrath of mars to shoot a Deathshroud squad off the table. And this is their core infantry unit. So erm yeah, thats why I asked on this thread too. I got no idea how to handle that kind of firepower coming from core troops like that. And just like Drukhari, their T3 toughness is an illusion. They can use canticles, strategem to get 2+ armor. Imagine trying to kill twenty 8 point models with a 2+ save...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
At another note, because I can't keep on thinking how to use our existing tools to fight armies like Drukhari and Admech. I think we have to acknowledge that the firepower that can be brought to bear on an exposed objective is just too high for us to be able to push a block of 4 or 5 terminators onto a midboard and be able to bully it.

Increasingly, the comnbined shooting and melee firepower of armies like Drukhari and Admech is such that we need to seriously consider cheap sacrificial pieces of our own that we can comfortably throw onto an objective and say "sure, use your awesome firepower to kill it, but then at least maybe in the process, you will now expose yourself to my counter punch".

Ordinarily, I would say a unit of 10 poxwalkers would be great for this. Except that they move 4 inches. There is no way we can easily move a unit of 10 sacificial poxwalkers onto a midboard objective easily unless we get lucky on our advance rolls.

So, I looked elsewhere in our codex and focused on our fast attack choices (because they are the fastest). And Chaos Spawn seem to be a good choice.

They have base move 7, and you would definitely advance them because they have zero shooting. They are also resilient enough such that you can't just fire a few shots at them and call it a day. You need to actually dedicate resources to kill them. Be it in melee or shooting. And best of all, they are cheap. A unit of 3 costs just 69 points. Cheaper than a squad of 5 plague marines.

Now, I chose them over our other fast attack choices, because of their cheapness. Stuff like bloat drones are simply far too expensive to be seen as sacificial unts. Throwing 130 to 135 points in a bloat drone onto a midboard objective on turn 1 just to sacrifice it for me to counter punch is just too expensive if I can use 69 points or less to do the same thing (which we can if we take 2 spawn instead of 3).

Lets take Drukahari. Turn 1, they love to stay in their transports. So, turn 1, if I advance a unit of chaos spawn onto a midboard objective. What are you going to do as a Drukhari player. If you put your raider onto the same point, I have 3 models to your one, so I still take that objective. Are you going to pile 4 raiders onto that objective? Are you going to unload a squad of your infantry turn 1 to charge me? Are you going to devote enough shooting to clear me off that point? (Shooting that then will not go into my PBC or terminators).

Basically, you either watch me take that point and maybe end up with my primaries than you, or you do stuff like shoot me off, charge me with your troops, or stack more non obsec units onto that point, which are all things that I want. Because all those things allow me to counter attack better precisely because they expose the Drukhari units that I want to hit, and in this case, we made them do it with a cheap unit rather than one of our valuable terminator units.

I think we may be forced to do the same with Admech. Shooting from a block of 20 rangers is far too lethal. And there is also all the rest of admech's units, from what has always been a super shooty faction. Whatever that pokes it head out and gets exposed risks being outight shot off the board.

But if we feed spawn units piecemeal turn by turn... well it won't win us the game, but at least it keeps us on parity. Lets say I put chaos spawn onto a midboard objective. So, now as an Admech player, you don't want to risk putting your rangers too close, you instead shoot that spawn unit off that objective. But that means neither of us now holds that objective. Next turn, I again advance a second spawn unit onto that point. Are you going to do the same thing and just shoot it off the board again? Whatever the case, it is far cheaper for me to sacrifice one spawn unit a turn on that objective as opposed to pushing a terminator unit onto that point and then see it get blown off the board on the Admech player's turn. I would far rather sacrifice 2 chaos spawn units on an objective
for 2 turns rather than sacrifice 2 terminator units per turn on an objective.

This isn't a whole list. Its just me bringing up this point of sacrificial units for discussion. I think that as more 9th codexes come out. The power creep will continue, so every faction will get more and more lethal. So, even Deathguard will need to consider sacrificial units we can use for contesting a point to allow the rest of our army to conserve its strength for the counter punch or better position for the all in (which won't be on turn 1).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 04:45:16


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Has anyone here made use of Mortarion's phosphex bombs in a game? They strike me as being a pretty solid horde killer.


Never gave it much thought, as you rarely have many targets in range and you can't throw bombs in combat. For the 1-2 targets you do have in range, deciding between bombs or the lantern is usually obvious, you just pick which one is better.

If you are planning to charge a large unit of boyz, daemons or pox walkers, bombs are great so you don't lose too many wounds to them. Against wyches, guardsmen or other units of 10, I'd rather take the latern and shoot at a nearby hard target because it's not like they are going to survive the charge.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




I think that the rhino rush with PM spam are a thing now.
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Jidmah wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Has anyone here made use of Mortarion's phosphex bombs in a game? They strike me as being a pretty solid horde killer.


Never gave it much thought, as you rarely have many targets in range and you can't throw bombs in combat. For the 1-2 targets you do have in range, deciding between bombs or the lantern is usually obvious, you just pick which one is better.

If you are planning to charge a large unit of boyz, daemons or pox walkers, bombs are great so you don't lose too many wounds to them. Against wyches, guardsmen or other units of 10, I'd rather take the latern and shoot at a nearby hard target because it's not like they are going to survive the charge.

Additionally, you can use the lantern to snipe characters too, so long as your first target is a valid target and that the character is lined up correctly and is in range.

I've actually used that to kill the annoying ancient apothecary in my games.

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Mortarion1985 wrote:
I think that the rhino rush with PM spam are a thing now.


Ad-Mech has far too much shooting to make it work. They'll pop 2x Rhinos and 2x 10-Man Plague Marine squads a turn easily and from a distance. There are only so many turns where you can feed them stuff at that rate.

If people haven't seen that new Codex in action yet, I suggest checking it out. However deadly you think they are... they're far worse. The output from 160pts of their basic troops alone is unbelievable with a couple buffs and a single CP spent.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, however bad you think it is, its worse. You really can't walk terminators boldly into the center thinking they can tank it all. Even with Miasma of pestilence on a block of Terminators, they will still get blown off the board. The shooting from 20 rangers combined with strategems is just over the top good. And this is before we even consider shooting from stuff like Ironstriders. Against Admech, we have to stay behind obscuring against their most dangerous ranged weapons until we can hit them hard enough to whittle some of it down, or tie some of it in combat. They are quite capable of killing eight to ten terminators a round if we present that kind of targets to them. And no DG list can afford to lose that many terminators each round.



BTW, this is confirmed on Warhammer community. Laidraiders are going down by 20 points. Don't know if DG would use them when our PBCs are so good. But it might be worth a look.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 03:40:07


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Hey guys, for anyone interested, I made this video recently on my Chaos tactica channel:

"Interested in learning how to win with (and play against) Death Guard in competitive play? Check out Episode 10 of Warp Surge Radio, which provides a detailed look at playing Death Guard in the current meta including list analysis and match-by-match breakdowns of my recent 5-0 run at the Salty Alliance Major. I also talk about my other lists and top table matches from winning several RTTs already this season to rack up a 19 wins to 1 loss record in open-style ITC events to date. If you enjoy the content, please consider sharing and hitting the Subscribe button!"




Episode 10 Segments (Embedded in video)

0:00 Intro & Death Guard Codex/Meta Overview
12:15 Salty Alliance Major with Harbingers List Analysis
33:10 Salty Alliance Major Round 1 List & Game Analysis - Blood Angels
44:25 Salty Alliance Major Round 2 List & Game Analysis - Orks
51:23 Salty Alliance Major Round 3 List & Game Analysis - Chaos
59:50 Salty Alliance Major Round 4 List & Game Analysis - Custodes
1:09:30 Salty Alliance Major Round 5 List & Game Analysis - Orks
1:20:00 Example 1 of RTT-winning List & RTT Final Matches Analysis
1:31:40 Example 2 of RTT-winning List & RTT Final Matches Analysis
1:37:40 Concluding Thoughts on Death Guard in the Meta & Audience Q&A

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/01 01:46:49


   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Great video, Virules! Very insightful! Thumbs up!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Eldenfirefly wrote:
Great video, Virules! Very insightful! Thumbs up!


Glad it was helpful! Share with any other DG players you know

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





So after getting completely creamed by the new Ad Mech last week and talking through how even if I played differently I would still have lost I flipantly said 'I am not sure I can win this match up with an extra 1000 points'.

Well, my opponent likes that challenge! This will enable him to try and use all his tools without (hopefully!) tableing me in 2 rounds.

I am not a power gamer but do know how to play, have attended quite a few large tourneys and we do play competitively.

We are gonna play a proper serious game with the only concessions being we picked the mission - Vital intelligence and we will be giving Ad Mech first turn so we can really see what they can do. This will affect deployment etc but it is 3000 v 2000 remember!

So Sunday night my 3000 points of DG will take on 2000 Very confident Ad Mech!

My list:
Morty - Gloaming

Daemon Prince Wings - Hulking Insect Hive
Lord of Contagion
Plaguecaster

10 PM - Fist, 2 flails, 2Blight, 5 bolters
10 PM - Fist, 1 flails, 1 Cleaver, 2Blight, 5 bolters
16 Pox
10 Pox
10 Pox

5 B/Lords - Flail, Blight, all axes
3 D/Shroud
Blightspawn - Stench & Viscous
Surgeon
Tallyman - Tollkeeper

2 x Spawn
Mower Drone
2 x Haulers

P/Burst Crawler
P/Burst Crawler

I realise this may not be fully 'tuned' but it is limited by what I have available, we only play 2000 points normally!

So what do you think, can Ad Mech take this down?

I will come back with his list once finalised and will put up some pictures of the board/review after the game.
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






Got my first post pandemic tourney this Saturday. My FLGS does both a 2k and 1k event but just went for the 1k option as I'm incredibly rusty. Gonna try something new with the Wretched. Never ran them yet. List below. Will let you all know how I get on.

Spoiler:
Death Guard
Total: 52 PL, 5CP, 995pts
Patrol Detachment, Incursion
Plague Company: The Wretched

HQ
Death Guard Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 105pts]: Lightning Claw x2
Malignant Plaguecaster [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Spells - Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality, Curse of the Leper, Strategem - Sevenfold Blessings [-1CP], Relic - The Daemon's Favour, Warlord Trait: Eater Plague

Troops [11 PL, 205pts]
Plague Marines [6 PL, 105pts]: Boltgun x5
Poxwalkers x20 [5 PL, 100pts]

Elites [14 PL, 285pts]
Blightlord Terminators [10 PL, 210pts]: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter x3, Flail, Blight Launcher
Plague Surgeon [4 PL, 75pts]

Fast Attack [7 PL, 130pts]
Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 130pts]: Plaguespitter

Heavy Support [9 PL, 175pts]
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: Entropy cannon x2

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/01 12:37:19


Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 lare2 wrote:
Got my first post pandemic tourney this Saturday. My FLGS does both a 2k and 1k event but just went for the 1k option as I'm incredibly rusty. Gonna try something new with the Wretched. Never ran them yet. List below. Will let you all know how I get on.

Spoiler:
Death Guard
Total: 52 PL, 5CP, 995pts
Patrol Detachment, Incursion
Plague Company: The Wretched

HQ
Death Guard Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 105pts]: Lightning Claw x2
Malignant Plaguecaster [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Spells - Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality, Curse of the Leper, Strategem - Sevenfold Blessings [-1CP], Relic - The Daemon's Favour, Warlord Trait: Eater Plague

Troops [11 PL, 205pts]
Plague Marines [6 PL, 105pts]: Boltgun x5
Poxwalkers x20 [5 PL, 100pts]

Elites [14 PL, 285pts]
Blightlord Terminators [10 PL, 210pts]: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter x5
Plague Surgeon [4 PL, 75pts]

Fast Attack [7 PL, 130pts]
Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 130pts]: Plaguespitter

Heavy Support [9 PL, 175pts]
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: Entropy cannon x2


Good luck!!!! Let us know how it went!!!
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

New errata from the big rule book says that difficult ground modifies the movement characteristic. It seems our legion trait isn’t useless anymore!

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Boom! Warptime is dead for DG units. Dark Hereticus only affects targets from a <LEGION>.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
Boom! Warptime is dead for DG units. Dark Hereticus only affects targets from a <LEGION>.


Yup, but it was kind of to be expected. On the plus side, Typhus has been clarified to now be able to be taken in any plague company. You don't need to have to be Harbringers to take Typhus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brymm wrote:
New errata from the big rule book says that difficult ground modifies the movement characteristic. It seems our legion trait isn’t useless anymore!


That's great news!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 16:37:36


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The new rules as to what being "Stationary" confers is big for DG. Infantry essentially have universal fall-back-and-shoot, etc...

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The new rules as to what being "Stationary" confers is big for DG. Infantry essentially have universal fall-back-and-shoot, etc...


I thought that as first too. Then I took out my DG codex and read it properly. Under our "Inexorable Advance" rules, it states that "this unit counts as having Remained Stationary if it did not fall back or advance".

So, nope. DG infantry did not get fall back and shoot or advance and shoot. lol
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






 Jidmah wrote:
Boom! Warptime is dead for DG units. Dark Hereticus only affects targets from a <LEGION>.


Well that sucks.

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eldenfirefly wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The new rules as to what being "Stationary" confers is big for DG. Infantry essentially have universal fall-back-and-shoot, etc...


I thought that as first too. Then I took out my DG codex and read it properly. Under our "Inexorable Advance" rules, it states that "this unit counts as having Remained Stationary if it did not fall back or advance".

So, nope. DG infantry did not get fall back and shoot or advance and shoot. lol


Damn. Good catch. For a minute I dared think we got a genuine new play-style. :-p

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





 Jidmah wrote:
Boom! Warptime is dead for DG units. Dark Hereticus only affects targets from a <LEGION>.


I will not mourn it, I'm happy to see soup in all its forms go the way of the dodo. Sad times for CSM players though, multi legion lists was all that was keeping them competitive.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Well gang it is fun while it lasted . Looks like we are back to being a low-mid tier army with warptime being nerfed and ad-mech existing. You can probably win plenty in a meta with no ad-mech/ tons of unoptimizable lists, but I can’t see DG doing better than 4-2 at any serious tournament without cheating.

Oh well I’m still ok playing this army at a more casual level, and can hope legion of shadow/ the Tson codex will make Chaos as a whole viable.
   
Made in fi
Fresh-Faced New User




Now that Dreadclaws got a bit better Drop pod assault rules, do you think there's any benefit in taking one and deep striking Virion characters to support deep striking terminators? Terminus Est list has this deep strike option at pretty steep CP cost but now you could do it with any Plague company. Deep strike in general not being as useful as before but are there any scenarios where you see yourself using Dreadclaw?
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





I think dropping in a unit of possessed with a bio-p in a drop pod could be fun! You still have the issue of making that 9" charge tho

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





Salt donkey wrote:
Well gang it is fun while it lasted . Looks like we are back to being a low-mid tier army with warptime being nerfed and ad-mech existing. You can probably win plenty in a meta with no ad-mech/ tons of unoptimizable lists, but I can’t see DG doing better than 4-2 at any serious tournament without cheating.

Oh well I’m still ok playing this army at a more casual level, and can hope legion of shadow/ the Tson codex will make Chaos as a whole viable.


There was already pure DG lists winning tournaments (even 6-0) without Morty or warptime, so that's hardly the end of the world. Although it does make me annoyed thinking back to all the "Morty is so OP!" comments we saw a few months ago that he'll now be shelved for most people again.

I still think DG can be a top/high mid tier army but will need to see how we now do against the FAQ'ed Dark Eldar and the new Ad Mech, who are clearly going to be top tier. At least the new FAQ shows that any Ad-Mech stuff that is too broken will be brought in line in 4 weeks time. But the trend of new codexs does point to DG being pushed down to a mid tier codex as time goes on. It's not all doom and gloom right now, but our future isn't bright...
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





This just in, we can field heretic astartes Lord of War for just 1 CP in an Aux Detachment as long as we have a heretic Astartes warlord. Our DG warlords have heretic astartes keyword.

So, yes, we can field LOWs like Lord of Skulls for just 1 CP now! Its always good to have more options like these. lol Previously, 3CP was steep. But at 1 CP ... well, its very interesting.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Eldenfirefly wrote:
This just in, we can field heretic astartes Lord of War for just 1 CP in an Aux Detachment as long as we have a heretic Astartes warlord. Our DG warlords have heretic astartes keyword.

So, yes, we can field LOWs like Lord of Skulls for just 1 CP now! Its always good to have more options like these. lol Previously, 3CP was steep. But at 1 CP ... well, its very interesting.


Where is this change at?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Fergie0044 wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
Well gang it is fun while it lasted . Looks like we are back to being a low-mid tier army with warptime being nerfed and ad-mech existing. You can probably win plenty in a meta with no ad-mech/ tons of unoptimizable lists, but I can’t see DG doing better than 4-2 at any serious tournament without cheating.

Oh well I’m still ok playing this army at a more casual level, and can hope legion of shadow/ the Tson codex will make Chaos as a whole viable.


There was already pure DG lists winning tournaments (even 6-0) without Morty or warptime, so that's hardly the end of the world. Although it does make me annoyed thinking back to all the "Morty is so OP!" comments we saw a few months ago that he'll now be shelved for most people again.

I still think DG can be a top/high mid tier army but will need to see how we now do against the FAQ'ed Dark Eldar and the new Ad Mech, who are clearly going to be top tier. At least the new FAQ shows that any Ad-Mech stuff that is too broken will be brought in line in 4 weeks time. But the trend of new codexs does point to DG being pushed down to a mid tier codex as time goes on. It's not all doom and gloom right now, but our future isn't bright...


Pure DG was going 6-0 in smaller tournaments before people had a chance to adjust for us. Since drukhari came out that hasn’t been the case at all for pure builds. Obviously drukhari being nerfed helps with that, but that + is completely negated by how strong ad mech is.

One of the reason I was so high on warptime is because DG struggle most with gunline armies. Doesn’t matter how durable we are if our opponents can safety shoot us off the table using “glass cannon” range units (we sure as heck ain’t out shooting them).

This wasn’t so much of a problem back when gunline armies weren’t that powerful (so anyone who wanted to beat us had to skew in ways which hurt them in other matchups). Now that ad mech have 20 man Skitarii blender Squads and super efficient chicken walkers, this is no longer the case. I truly don’t see a way how we win against this now that warptime is off the table, and there’s still a chance that drukahri still counter us.

That isn’t to say we aren’t strong in a lot of matchups, but you can’t win a tournament when you can’t win against a meta army.
   
 
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