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Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

(insert obligatory Dark Angels/Dresses/Feathers/Midgets joke)

OK back in the dim and distant days of the late 1980s the DAs had little or no backstory.  Bill King wrote a decent little story called Deathwing that established the Dark Angels were native americans who had joined the Imperium.  Each one had an imperial name and a native name ie the Librarian Julian (or whatever) was also called Two-heads-talking. 

So the Deathwing ended up with feathers and native american imagry.

Then in the dim and distant early 90s the DAs got a new background as the grimmer than grim marines who wear monastic robes.  But the DA models were not updates.

So with the next DA codex due out should/will the DW keep their native american look?

 


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Course they will. Feathers are IN. Check new Empire for evidence!
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

no point if they are now paranoid freeks as opposed to cool native indian types, I actually like DA back in those says, but now that they are zenos and abhuman hating nazi they dont appeal to me so much.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

Wasn't the Emperor Native American? And the Dark Angels were the first chapter he made, from the warriors that had fought for him in conquering Terra?

ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
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The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Deepest Darkest Essex!!! UK

see i was always under the impression that that particular chapter of the old dark angels legion (remeber they were legions made up of chapters made up of companies back then preheresy or at least very close after the heresy) was from a native american style world, not the whole legion as they also had "imperial" names too suggesting that on joining the legion the old ways etc of their home were to be cast off but because fo their feat on their homeworld the deathwing was included in the legion hereldry?

   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Posted By millest on 11/07/2006 3:56 PM
see i was always under the impression that that particular chapter of the old dark angels legion (remeber they were legions made up of chapters made up of companies back then preheresy or at least very close after the heresy) was from a native american style world, not the whole legion as they also had "imperial" names too suggesting that on joining the legion the old ways etc of their home were to be cast off but because fo their feat on their homeworld the deathwing was included in the legion hereldry?



That was the recon used to reconcile the two stories.  The Bill King story was done before the whole Legion/Chapter/First Founding/Heresy thing was finalized.

I always thought they should have made the Raven Guard the native American chapter. 


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





They're space-catholics now.

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The Ultimate, Strongest, Most Invincible Man in the Milky Way 
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





The eye of chaos has already watered down the posts here. Sad.

The Dark Angels were always the first. But with their homeworld destroyed they recruited from many other worlds. The men of the Deathwing were some of those recruits, and in honour of their sacrifice they painted the terminators white and carried forth the native american style imagery of the men of the world. I don't see any reason to change it. It is now established canon and a unique part of the chapter. Even though the men of that world may have long passed, the imagery would stick as an honour, no matter who wears those suits now.

Now for a discussion, lets discuss who is good and who is bad. Is it the Fallen? Or the chapter as it stands now....


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Posted By redshirt87 on 11/07/2006 4:52 PM
THEIR JUST DARK ANGELS NOT NATIVE AMERICANS THE FEATHERS ARE THEIR CUS THEIR CALLED DARK "ANGELS" NO OTHER REASON


There are three possible ways to spell that word you are using. 1) Their, a possessive-plural pronoun denoting collective ownership; 2) there, an adverb denoting position; and 3) they're, a contraction of 'they are'.  You have managed to use the one spelling incorrectly two ways in the same sentence.  Congratulations!  And it is only your third post.

Using all capitol letters is considered rude, as it makes you appear to be shouting.  Please stop.

Blood Angels are "angels" too, yet we see no feather iconography, not to mention the Angels Encarmine or any of the other "Angels" chapters.  Also, chapters such as the Raven Guard that are named after actual birds show no feather iconography either, being instead heavily into the beaks/talons thing.  Do you have any history or background to support your assertion?  Even your unsupported opinion is welcome, if you can express it politely or with a sense of humor; shouting is uncalled for.  Have you ever read the story "Deathwing"?  It's good, look it up.



He's got a mind like a steel trap. By which I mean it can only hold one idea at a time;
it latches on to the first idea to come along, good or bad; and it takes strenuous effort with a crowbar to make it let go.
 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




In your house, rummaging through your underwear drawer

Wow, I never knew that 'their' was interchangable for "they're". Go figure.

To the issue at hand, I can tell you why the Dark Angels would be interested in recruiting native americans. Two words: Supple Braves.

"They come from the east, Long-Spear. They are the Sky Warriors, just like the Elder said!" "Quiet, Walks-Like-Thunder! They will hear us" The warrior replied. Little did they know, that they were already being watched. "There are two subjects approximately five hundred meters from us, Lord Chemosh!" the soldier ejaculated. " Very good, Brother Shaddai. I'm always in the mood for a little big horn, if you get me." replied the giant in bone-white armour. A small figure swathed in robes stood at his feet, tittering some kind of primitive song. "Yes, Levi, you can watch."

"Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow"~Oscar Wilde 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






You used to write Kirk-Spock fanlit, didn't you Jester.

Space-catholics?  More like space-Dominicans!  The Fallen are the good guys, like space-Jesuits, just misunderstood. The actual Dark Angels just think they're the good guys, because they are on the side that opposes Chaos, but really they are bad guys because they use torture and say the end justifies the means and like that, but we all know that their rigid certainty is their weakness no matter wht the Inquisition says, and Cipher is really Lion el-Johnson in disguise.

Oh, c'mon. "Lion El-Johnson = Lion of the Forest"? Puh-leez! What sort of language uses 'johnson' for 'forest'? I'm going hunting in the johnson. Deep in the dark, scary johnson lived a wicked old witch.  What I want to know is, who was Lionel Johnson, and what did he do to get a Primarch named after himself?

He's got a mind like a steel trap. By which I mean it can only hold one idea at a time;
it latches on to the first idea to come along, good or bad; and it takes strenuous effort with a crowbar to make it let go.
 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




In your house, rummaging through your underwear drawer

He was a poet. I'm sure he probably knew it. Here is the Dark Angel:


DARK Angel, with thine aching lust
To rid the world of penitence:
Malicious Angel, who still dost
My soul such subtile violence!

Because of thee, no thought, no thing,
Abides for me undesecrate:
Dark Angel, ever on the wing,
Who never reachest me too late!

When music sounds, then changest thou
Its silvery to a sultry fire:
Nor will thine envious heart allow
Delight untortured by desire.

Through thee, the gracious Muses turn,
To Furies, O mine Enemy!
And all the things of beauty burn
With flames of evil ecstasy.

Because of thee, the land of dreams
Becomes a gathering place of fears:
Until tormented slumber seems
One vehemence of useless tears.

When sunlight glows upon the flowers,
Or ripples down the dancing sea:
Thou, with thy troop of passionate powers,
Beleaguerest, bewilderest, me.

Within the breath of autumn woods,
Within the winter silences:
Thy venomous spirit stirs and broods,
O Master of impieties!

The ardour of red flame is thine,
And thine the steely soul of ice:
Thou poisonest the fair design
Of nature, with unfair device.

Apples of ashes, golden bright;
Waters of bitterness, how sweet!
O banquet of a foul delight,
Prepared by thee, dark Paraclete!

Thou art the whisper in the gloom,
The hinting tone, the haunting laugh:
Thou art the adorner of my tomb,
The minstrel of mine epitaph.

I fight thee, in the Holy Name!
Yet, what thou dost, is what God saith:
Tempter! should I escape thy flame,
Thou wilt have helped my soul from Death:

The second Death, that never dies,
That cannot die, when time is dead:
Live Death, wherein the lost soul cries,
Eternally uncomforted.

Dark Angel, with thine aching lust!
Of two defeats, of two despairs:
Less dread, a change to drifting dust,
Than thine eternity of cares.

Do what thou wilt, thou shalt not so,
Dark Angel! triumph over me:
Lonely, unto the Lone I go;
Divine, to the Divinity.

Lionel Johnson

"Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow"~Oscar Wilde 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Dark Angel! triumph over me...

Oh my lord, how could I have missed this gem!

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




In your house, rummaging through your underwear drawer

I knew you'd dig it the most, Malfred.

"Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow"~Oscar Wilde 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Posted By Toreador on 11/07/2006 5:17 PM
The eye of chaos has already watered down the posts here. Sad.
Funny I was about to say the same thing.


The Dark Angels were always the first. But with their homeworld destroyed they recruited from many other worlds. The men of the Deathwing were some of those recruits, and in honour of their sacrifice they painted the terminators white and carried forth the native american style imagery of the men of the world. I don't see any reason to change it. It is now established canon and a unique part of the chapter. Even though the men of that world may have long passed, the imagery would stick as an honour, no matter who wears those suits now.

And that is a fine retcon to expain things, so long as you... oh... IGNORE EVERYTHING EVERYONE IN THE STORY SAYS ABOUT HOW THEY ALWAYS RECRUITED FROM  THE PLANET OF THE APACHES AND IF IT GOES THE CHAPTER WILL DIE OUT.

Sorry.  Shouting there.

My problem with the DW as native americans (well besides the fact they really don't look too native american) is that they stick out like a sore thumb in the 2nd-4th edition DAs.

Imagine if the Viking Space Wolves had an elite unit of Samurai (who are they?  Oh they're the jadewing, they're from this random Japanese planet we recruited from for a week and a half back in the 36,000s) or if the Roman Ultramarines had some Maui warriors thrown in. 

So my only objection is aesthtics.

The there/their/they're kid might be on the right track if the feathers could be made more suggestive of angels and less of lazy sculptors tacking on some feathers to existing models.


 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





A bizarre array of focusing mirrors and lenses turning my phrases into even more accurate clones of

Haha, KK. As if GW doesn't already "borrow" backgrounds and ideas from historical periods.

I'd love an elite samurai unit. That would be cool. They could be like the futuristic teenage mutant ninja turtles in battle armor!

WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS

2009, Year of the Dog
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Posted By stonefox on 11/07/2006 6:36 PM
 They could be like the futuristic teenage mutant ninja turtles in battle armor!

Phoenix Lords

fightin' against the Evil Shredder and his Incubi ninjas, who hanging out in Dimension X with Asdurvael Vect

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The Ultimate, Strongest, Most Invincible Man in the Milky Way 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Jester: Exalt.

Nothing like some angry homoerotic poetry to put things into perspective. Now we know why Lion El'Jonson 'hung back' with his chapter as Horus besieged Terra. And I bet Cipher really is Lion El', tormented with grief that his sugar daddy is stuck in a death-support chair and he never got to tell him he forgave him for liking Horus best and all.

He's got a mind like a steel trap. By which I mean it can only hold one idea at a time;
it latches on to the first idea to come along, good or bad; and it takes strenuous effort with a crowbar to make it let go.
 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





West Chester, PA

Posted By Jester on 11/07/2006 6:02 PM
He was a poet. I'm sure he probably knew it. Here is the Dark Angel:


DARK Angel, with thine aching lust
To rid the world of penitence:
Malicious Angel, who still dost
My soul such subtile violence!

Because of thee, no thought, no thing,
Abides for me undesecrate:
Dark Angel, ever on the wing,
Who never reachest me too late!

When music sounds, then changest thou
Its silvery to a sultry fire:
Nor will thine envious heart allow
Delight untortured by desire.

Through thee, the gracious Muses turn,
To Furies, O mine Enemy!
And all the things of beauty burn
With flames of evil ecstasy.

Because of thee, the land of dreams
Becomes a gathering place of fears:
Until tormented slumber seems
One vehemence of useless tears.

When sunlight glows upon the flowers,
Or ripples down the dancing sea:
Thou, with thy troop of passionate powers,
Beleaguerest, bewilderest, me.

Within the breath of autumn woods,
Within the winter silences:
Thy venomous spirit stirs and broods,
O Master of impieties!

The ardour of red flame is thine,
And thine the steely soul of ice:
Thou poisonest the fair design
Of nature, with unfair device.

Apples of ashes, golden bright;
Waters of bitterness, how sweet!
O banquet of a foul delight,
Prepared by thee, dark Paraclete!

Thou art the whisper in the gloom,
The hinting tone, the haunting laugh:
Thou art the adorner of my tomb,
The minstrel of mine epitaph.

I fight thee, in the Holy Name!
Yet, what thou dost, is what God saith:
Tempter! should I escape thy flame,
Thou wilt have helped my soul from Death:

The second Death, that never dies,
That cannot die, when time is dead:
Live Death, wherein the lost soul cries,
Eternally uncomforted.

Dark Angel, with thine aching lust!
Of two defeats, of two despairs:
Less dread, a change to drifting dust,
Than thine eternity of cares.

Do what thou wilt, thou shalt not so,
Dark Angel! triumph over me:
Lonely, unto the Lone I go;
Divine, to the Divinity.

Lionel Johnson

Wow, I just got a little misty here <sniff>

I heart SYR 8766

For all your bravado, if the US Army decided to invade, Wisconsin is it?, in force supported by a heavy bombing campaign for the month before, weeks of shelling from battleships on Lake Superior, and a full tank thrust (crushing the cows beneath the treads), I don't think that your .22 is going to make much of a difference really... Asmodai (my new hero)


At some point these sorts of decision-making skills lump you into the same camp as the Lehman Brothers, the White Star Line shipping company, and mothers who smoke during pregnancy.
---Sour Clams 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Canada

*sigh* I bet my job would've been much simpler without you Jester. But then again, my life would be much sadder.

That's right- if I were a Dark Angel I'd totally be into Jester.

"Nothing from the outside world can be imported into Canada without first being doused in ranch dressing. Canadian Techs have found that while this makes the internet delicious it tends to hamper the bandwidth potential. Scientists are working furiously to rectify the problem. "

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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Posted By Drake_Marcus on 11/07/2006 8:09 PM
*sigh* I bet my job would've been much simpler without you Jester. But then again, my life would be much sadder.

That's right- if I were a Dark Angel I'd totally be into Jester.

Instead, Jester is totally into you.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

So, back on topic, has anyone see the new DW sprues? Feathers? Cloaks? Feathery boas? Inquiring minds want to know.

 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





New Zealand

I don't see any conflict between the 'Native American' theme and the 'so dark and gloomy' theme, and would be happy to see both expanded on in the official fluff and models.

Interesting point mentioned above re feathers being part of wings - of course they are, but I'd never thought of that in DA imagery terms before. Hmm, do Native Americans use single feathers as symbolic wings?

Well, young Kyoto, the good news is that even if GW don't provide wings in the DA expansion sprue, at least we can steal them off the goblin spider riders
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Or the new Empire state troops. Long, fluffety feathers.

He's got a mind like a steel trap. By which I mean it can only hold one idea at a time;
it latches on to the first idea to come along, good or bad; and it takes strenuous effort with a crowbar to make it let go.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If I remember my American history right (which I probably don't), I think the Jesuits got along well with the Native Americans. Weren't they the French priests who went out and lived with the Native Canadians and tried to convert them, but in a much nicer way than the Spanish Franciscans did in the west or the protestant genocides to the east. I think so. Anyway, then it makes sense that the Jesuit Dark Angels are in the same army as the Native American Dark Angels. It's just like the French and Indian War. In which of course the French and Indians were on the same side vs. the British including their (at that time) American colonies. It totally makes sense.

And that makes the British and the Americans chaos. No! The Emperor is British and the Americans are Chaos, and Horus is General Washington (or perhaps Thomas Jefferson). And when the Chaos Americans revolt against the Imperial British, the French Dark Angels take the side of the Chaos Americans, like they did. But then, unlike real history (GW is a British company afterall, and we know where they're loyalties lie), the Imperial British defeat the Chaos Americans and the French Dark Angels cover up their involvement in the whole thing and keep it a deep dark secret forever because if the Imperial British Inquisition SAS ever found out they'd be in big trouble.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Posted By The Crawling Chaos on 11/07/2006 10:04 PM
If I remember my American history right (which I probably don't), I think the Jesuits got along well with the Native Americans. Weren't they the French priests who went out and lived with the Native Canadians and tried to convert them, but in a much nicer way than the Spanish Franciscans did in the west or the protestant genocides to the east. 

And if I remember my Jesuit schooling right, a few of the tribes didn't take very nicely to the idea and burned a couple Jesuits at the stake.  American history used to be so much more interesting.   *sigh*

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Posted By bigchris1313 on 11/07/2006 10:08 PM
Posted By The Crawling Chaos on 11/07/2006 10:04 PM
If I remember my American history right (which I probably don't), I think the Jesuits got along well with the Native Americans. Weren't they the French priests who went out and lived with the Native Canadians and tried to convert them, but in a much nicer way than the Spanish Franciscans did in the west or the protestant genocides to the east. 

And if I remember my Jesuit schooling right, a few of the tribes didn't take very nicely to the idea and burned a couple Jesuits at the stake.  American history used to be so much more interesting.   *sigh*

Read (or see the movie I guess) Black Robe for more fun info about Jesuits and Native Americans.

Yes, feathers are important to many, though not all, NA groups.  It's why if you have your Federal Card (lets people know you're an Indian, and not some yahoo who just claims they had Indian relatives somewhere) you can legally carry an eagle feather.  Anyone else and it's $10,000 fine at least.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Dangerous Skeleton Captain




Honolulu, HI

Your all missing the important question here...

If Ravenwing vehicles get to have dream catchers hanging from them do DAs become white trash? Ergo, will I get an option to leave the primer coat on my vehicles for a point deduction?

I mean seriously those old DW models sucked and with GW's penchant for overdoing things, ie skulls, I dont want feathers crossing over into the mainstream DA units.

Additionally, the old DW models and fluff were lame... Angels of Death is such a cooler explanation of DA fluff explaining the dichotomy of the DA struggle for purpose vs. their Imperial mission; and the DA's recruiting practices.

Ft Shafter
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

In the first expansion for Space Hulk the Deathwing was introduced in an extensive backstory about a Genestealer invasion of the Deathwing's home planet. The story makes is quite clear that the planet was a "native American" rural style planet but under the influence of the Genestealer cult it became industrialised and corrupted.

The story had the Deathwing members revisiting the planet after decades away, because their recruitment drives were done on a multi-decade cycle due to the requirement to travel and fight over long distances. They discover the Genestealer infiltration, obliterate the Genestealer cult leaders and re-establish the rightful hegemony of the Imperium.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Posted By Jester on 11/07/2006 5:41 PM
Two words: Supple Braves.

"They come from the east, Long-Spear. They are the Sky Warriors, just like the Elder said!" "Quiet, Walks-Like-Thunder! They will hear us" The warrior replied. Little did they know, that they were already being watched. "There are two subjects approximately five hundred meters from us, Lord Chemosh!" the soldier ejaculated. " Very good, Brother Shaddai. I'm always in the mood for a little big horn, if you get me." replied the giant in bone-white armour. A small figure swathed in robes stood at his feet, tittering some kind of primitive song. "Yes, Levi, you can watch."

 
That was amazing Jester, damnation!  In fact it's vying with Bullet Shark and Gravy Cat for sig space ...

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