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this is a unit I am confused about.  it has the potential to be pretty sweet but it costs a whole lot.  its bs4 now which is nice.

the only way I have considered using this unit is taking 2.  1 with a pretty full load out to keep it survivable (spirit stones, holo field, vectored engines maybe) and the other one bare bones, with the possible exception of spirit stones.  so for about 300 points  you have 1 tough tank that has a bs4 twinlinked str 10 ap1 small blast or a str 7 ap 3 large blast.  if you are playing against a horde army w/ limited ways to deal w/ these tanks you could use the 2 templates at str 6 ap 4 instead of 1 at str 7 ap 3.

basicaly you have the geared up one shooting and the other one deployed out of LOS of the enemy but w/ LOS to the other prism.

it dosent scatter and has a rerollable 3+ to hit, which is nice, its just so pricey. 

it also eats up 2 HS slots.

what do you guys think about this?  any other ideas on how to field these effectively?

I am gonna run 3 with holofield and stones as tank popping/horde killing for my harlequin horde army.

They're not that great but they pop tanks and are cheaper than falcons with longer range. I'll be playing mine at max distance, and try to keep as few of them in LOS as possible so as to use combined shots, and rotate them out as they get shaken.

It's something productive to do with your heavy slots in an army that doesn't want to transport anything. Sure beats warwalkers or wraithlords, most of the time.

what will be in the rest of your army? I am curious now.

Always fully load your prisms. Because a fully-loaded prism (or falcon) is so difficult to kill, it is victory points that your opponent can't get (point denial). Then if it only just kills a couple of things during the course of the game, it puts you way ahead.

Two sounds like a good number because they are relatively easy to shake and so they'll spend a lot of time not shooting. Like Longshot said, if you have two, then the shaken one can zip behind cover while the other one comes out to shoot, then next turn the one that was in the open (which is now shaken) can swap back with the one that can shoot again.

In terms of target priority, I say shoot as many good single shots as you can get first at things that will score you points with a single hit like vehicles. The 60" range of the prism cannon lets you have a shootout with a lascannon predator, for example, from beyond the predator's range. The blast templates give you double hits on open-topped raiders and trukks. Besides, Eldar have plenty of other stuff that can put high-str firepower onto lighter targets. With brightlances so expensive, it's long-range tankbusting power that Eldar lack.

Then, when all the expensive vehicles are dead, start thinking about putting big templates on clusters of troops. Or if you're fighting nids or tau or whatever, you've got those big templates to go to. Or, obviously, if a pack of terminators deepstrikes anywhere near you, then that's the time for the AP2 template.

Prisms are obviously going to be most effective in a long-range standoff army, complimented by things like rangers/pathfinders and things with missile launchers. If you're planning on transporting a lot of troops or getting in close for shooting, falcons are better.

I think its going to be a great tank in the new codex. The shear threat that the combined template will impose on marine armies will most likely restrict them to hugging cover, which in a fast eldar army, plays right into your hands.

Personally, im going to go for two and a falcon for my heavy supports, all with holofields and spirit stones. From my point of view, i generally have quite good luck with holofield rolls anyway and only tend to die on double 6 so im not going to bother with vectored engines. I'd rather buy the vectored engines for my wave serpents with aspects in anyway.

The increased cost of bright lances on wave serpents has definitely made my army into a horde of S6 shooting, kicking out something like 30 odd S6 mobile shots a turn. Obviously im going to have problems against predators if i cant get side armour so the prism is more likely to settle into the long range sniper tank role, as mentioned previously. BS4 is the uber upgrade in my view, mine always used to roll 3's to hit most of the time anyway, so its all good. Outranging marine tanks promises to be fun, give the aspects time to close and let the fire dragons deliver close range death.

Fallen Angel: just FYI

Chance of dying from a glancing hit with holofield + vectored engines = 2.8%
Chance of dying from a glancing hit with holofield only = 11%

That added to the fact that a grounded prism can still shoot, and a grounded falcon can still shoot and disembark the troops that would have taken 75% casualties if it had crashed, makes vectored engines a bargain in my book.

true true, you'll probably get one more shooting phase out of it provided you haven't been shaken already. Then next turn you're getting penned. I guess its something that everyone will have different opinions on and will have to try at some point. I just kind find points for it at the moment and am still quite high on only losing one falcon in 6 games at a GT whilst using three...

My list is a laser lance autarch, 30 harlequins with shadowseers and troupe leaders, some small squads of jetbikes, and 3 fire prisms. It's not gonna be a tournament destroyer but it'll be cool

I might try vectored engines, but dunno. It's more valuable for falcons I think.

They're just better than wraithlords all around, and don't rate to give up victory points, which my harlequins do Chances are I'll lose two squads or more every game. The prisms are kind of like, VP insurance.

for 2 fully kitted out prisms you will pay almost 100 pts more than what I suggested for less effectiveness. all a second one will do is maybe absorb some of the shots that would ahve been targeting your other one anyway. if it can't shoot it cant boost the other prism. it would still be easy to deny them VP from the un upgraded prism by just keeping it out of LOS.

as I see it the eldar are expensive enough as it is point wise and if you dont want to have an army w/ only 30 models in it you will have to cut points somewhere. IMO the prism is a perfect candidate because it can contribute w/out being vulnerable to return fire. if something does have a chance of getting shots against it, its mobile enough to move somewhere else.

Sometimes you just want to show people 3 tanks and draw fire. Tough to do that if you have one or two made of glass. Not saying you always want to, but vs. a lot of armies you'd rather they shoot at prisms than shoot anything else.

Tau are a real good example, at least for my list. I can have S6 pies dropped on my harlequins, or S10 shots pinging off my fire prisms (and if they don't shoot he prisms you can bet they will be losing hammerheads/broadsides to prism shots).

How is a prism ever not vulnerable to return fire? Maybe if you play against a static shooty army on an 8' table. But every army has something like drop pods, deep strikers, drop troops, jet bikes, lurking speeders, ordinance, etc. for busting tanks that try to stay out of range.

100 points more on fire prisms means 100 more victory points that your opponent doesn't get. It means an additional 200 victory point advantage in missions where you get bonus points for surviving units.

To add to what Flavius is saying: Lendill, you are assuming that one combined shot is better then 2 standard shots. That won't always be true.

Plus, aren't you only saving 50 points by not taking the holofield and vectored engines on 1 prism? That's a steal compared to what you'd be able to use those points for.

Jeez, how can we get a verdict on the Fire Prism when most of don't even have the codex yet? It either came out today or tomorrow for those who didn't get the big box set in the U.S.

It's out; go get it!

I had some mixed sucess with mine. The BS4 is a real bonus, but as the old saying goes "never rely on Str 9 hits". It took 6 turns to kill a Landraider Crusader. Next time I'll have 2 just to speed things up.

If you think about it by odds, a S9 shot has a very very slim chance of killing a landraider. It should take a lot more than 6 turns.

6 shots, 4 hits, .667 glances (.11 chance of death) and .667 pens (.33 chance of death). So over 6 turns your odds of killing a crusader with a fire prism is something like 44%. Pretty good odds of immob or destroyed though.

Get two and multishot it with the S10 Ap1 twinlinked, that'll up your odds significantly.

I will give both methods a try and se which I like more. in theory your method is probably better in VP games. it will basicaly come down to which I feel more comfortable with in a game. i think I perfer2 fully loaded ones, in the event I am using them for str 9 or a horde.

My shop gets it in today. I'm definitely there.

One thing that seems clear, is that the Fire Prism becomes a better value in pairs, since it allows the linked shot option. The cost for the tank doesn't change, but having two gives you another option.

On the other hand, if you're going to run a single tank, perhaps in a smaller points game, you're paying some points amount for the ability to link shots, but you're not using it. In that case, the Falcon becomes more appealing, especially since your opponent is also less likely to have the points to field lots of AV14 monsters.

That being the case, my mind turns to modelling. I haven't built an Eldar army yet, I've been waiting years for a new Codex, so I'm not totally familliar with the Falcon/Fire Prism models. Based on the photos I've seen, it looks like it'd be simple to build a basic Eldar tank chassis, and then swap turrets out to make a Falcon or Fire Prism as needed. Is that correct?

The Prism was a big letdown for me

Evertime I see it I think of the Hammerhead, and how badly the prism stacks up compared to it.

I find that it's better to look at a unit in an army and ask yourself what problems it can solve for that particular army, rather than compare armies across the board with each other, as one army may not have as shooty a unit, but it may have several assault units that make the other armies pale in comparison.

Maybe in terms of offensive capability but defensively the situation is reversed thanks to holofields and vectored engines. Combined fire helps the offensive situation to a degree; maybe not as efficiently as 2-3 hammerheads but it's still a nice option in many situations.

Plus eldar have other options that fill in the offensive gap much more readily then Tau (firedragons for anti-tank, mucho S6 for anti-horde). Not to mention Tau's utter lack of assault capability.

your still paying nearly 200 points for what is effectively a long range lascannon.

And its faulty to say the hammerhead is less survivable than the fireprism. The ranges of both weapons means that 95% of your opponents arsenal will not be in range. (and solid positioning will keep that 5% out of los)

The Falcon remains the better choice. As wayfarer was quick to point out, Eldar have great cc troops. Which the prism does nothing to compliment. The Falcon, however, is not useless if shaken, carrying those cc troops (or fire dragons) to where there needed most. Its anti tank is certainly comparable to the prisms as well. 2 str 8 shots, 7 str 6 (assuming S. Laser and S. Cannon) at BS 3 vs 1 str 9 shot at BS 4.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the fire prism. Yeah, you are paying 170 points for a BS4 lascannon, or 340 points for a Strength 10 AP1, TWIN-LINKED gun. That's pretty much a gauranteed hit. I personally think that a 170 point Fire Prism comes out just a little worse off than a Railhead at 180-190 points unless you are playing VP denial. The difference in effectiveness is miniscule.

As for range, I don't know what kind of players you play but just about any serious army has gobs of mobile anti-tank.

EDIT: I think I'll probably end up running two prisms and a falcon for tournies.

not to mention a BS 4 TL str 6 ap 3 large blast. something far more accurate than ANY ordanance.

I only got a quick peak at the dex but I do not remember any bar on the bouncing of prism beams when the fire prism has been stunned.

I honestly believe the tournie build eldar is going to be 2 or 3 fire prisms, minned out jet bike squads with spearlocks, fire dragons in a wave serpent , large squad of harlies with farseer and a jetbike farseer with doom and guide. Then just throw in some toys for whatever points are left.

ender502

pg. 43, Eldar codex: "If prism cannons have a line of sight to other prism cannons they may forfeit their chance to fire in order to combine beams." If you're shaken/stunned, you have no chance to fire, thus nothing to forfeit.

Yes, but it doesn't say you must be able to fire. It only says that you forfeit it if you do.

Yet again I'm amazed by GW's inability to write clear rules. I'm pretty sure the intent here is that stunned Prism can't combine beams, but that's just not what the rules say.

There's certain basic concepts like "can this model shoot," that come up again and again. Use a uniform approach to these situations, and uniform language. Why is this so hard?

That's exactly what the rule I quoted says. How can it be interpreted otherwise? I'm just not seeing it. You cannot forfeit something you do not have.

Lord Sutekh,

Thanks for the quote. I agree that in all operable ways that sentence means a stunned prism cannot bounce. That  assumes a definition of the word "chance" that is not in evidence.

The wording could be tighter. Despite that I think the intent is clear and I would not play that a stunned prism can bounce.

ender502