UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Whirlwind**

Precisely, thank you for just validating my arguments...

Right - so looking at the entire icident and the various reports from different media is the same as looking at one video - well done.

Did the UK vessel ram, or not the french vessels in the video? You earlier stated that it was uk vessels were rammed from your evidence you gathered yet the video shows at least one case where the UK vessels were involved. that would suggest potential biased data collection and that not both sides of the story were being well represented (at least in the british media). I had only had to find one video to invalidate that it was all the french actions You are right in saying that it is only one piece of evidence but it also shows something you argued against (that the uk fisher people were angels and that I was simply defending the french).

I trust you read the bits that others had posted in international waters etc.....

What does where it happened make any difference as to which if not both parties are responsible?

**Kilkrazy**

Scallop row: French police pledge more boats to keep peace

Plus additional background to the whole dispute, which has been rumbling under for 15 years.

**jouso**

It helps to read the French version of the events too.

Basically that French put up additional restrictions to help scallops size properly, so that they command higher prices. Up until this year British fishermen agreed to abide by French restrictions on the area closer to the French coast where the generally smaller French vessels traditionally operate.

This year and probably because of Brexit the British ship owners withdrew from the table and decided to go on their own.

So something they could do, but a rather ungentlemanly move.

**Disciple of Fate**

Whirlwind wrote:
I trust you read the bits that others had posted in international waters etc.....

What does where it happened make any difference as to which if not both parties are responsible?

Technically it matters a lot as the CFP can be restricted in territorial waters. I'd also like to point out that the EU EEZ is not the same as international waters for the matter of fishing, but the CFP is clear on access to the EU EEZ.

**NinthMusketeer**

So I heard the French have once again sparked warfare by maliciously attacking the British unprovoked. I am no expert on EU politics so perhaps someone can fill me in on just how much of the French's fault this is?

(sarcasm)

**Whirlwind**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Whirlwind wrote:
I trust you read the bits that others had posted in international waters etc.....

What does where it happened make any difference as to which if not both parties are responsible?

Technically it matters a lot as the CFP can be restricted in territorial waters. I'd also like to point out that the EU EEZ is not the same as international waters for the matter of fishing, but the CFP is clear on access to the EU EEZ.

That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to that in any incident such as this it doesn't matter where it occurs. Regardless of the location it still means communications have broken down and that to some extent both parties are at fault. There are no reasons for deliberate collisions. Just shutting off the engine would help de-esclate matters. Once either party starts driving their ships into the other then it doesn't matter where it happens and is just going to infuriate both sides even more.

**Iron_Captain**

Maybe if you guys piss of the French enough, they will invade Britain again. That way you can still stay in the EU!

**Disciple of Fate**

Whirlwind wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Whirlwind wrote:
I trust you read the bits that others had posted in international waters etc.....

What does where it happened make any difference as to which if not both parties are responsible?

Technically it matters a lot as the CFP can be restricted in territorial waters. I'd also like to point out that the EU EEZ is not the same as international waters for the matter of fishing, but the CFP is clear on access to the EU EEZ.

That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to that in any incident such as this it doesn't matter where it occurs. Regardless of the location it still means communications have broken down and that to some extent both parties are at fault. There are no reasons for deliberate collisions. Just shutting off the engine would help de-esclate matters. Once either party starts driving their ships into the other then it doesn't matter where it happens and is just going to infuriate both sides even more.

It does though, because where it happens means where legal jurisdiction lies and who might be at fault for being there in the first place, although the CFP means its the ECJ.

To some extent both parties are at fault, but COLREG is clear that in the event of a collision the overtaking vessel is at first repsonsible but both vessels have a duty to avoid. Of course practically speaking the ones provoking it share the blame, technically COLREG also states that its the duty of a ship to avoid a vessel engaged in activities such as fishing. But COLREG doesn't take these kinds of actions into account, this is the assumption of incompetence or accidents. Legally speaking this is a difficult subject, but (again) technically you could apply the UNCLOS piracy article to some extent on the French, but if this ever would end up in court its going to end up at the ECJ.

Realistically this shouldn't be to hard a case to make, but neither the UK or France have the time or need to get bogged down by this because its expensive and will result in little considering the outcome of the day itself (perhaps a 'little' financial compensation). Plus getting into a dispute over this might just mean that France uses the CFP 12 nautical mile exemption, meaning the UK screws over all the UK vessels for the sake of a one off incident. I'm not sure what the financial clout of this particular group of fishermen is though, but it seems unlikely that the UK government would go to bat for them in the current political situation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iron_Captain wrote:
Maybe if you guys piss of the French enough, they will invade Britain again. That way you can still stay in the EU!

They better start pissing of the Dutch and Danish too, spread your bets people

**Steve steveson**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Maybe if you guys piss of the French enough, they will invade Britain again. That way you can still stay in the EU!

They never left! Dam Normans! Our foreign overlords should go home! Long live Wessex!

**reds8n**

Phew, at long last we've managed to, err, get Panasonic to move their HQ out of the UK and into mainland Europe.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45351288

Panasonic will move its European headquarters from the UK to Amsterdam in October as Brexit approaches.

The aim is to avoid potential tax issues linked to the UK's decision to leave the EU, said Panasonic Europe's chief executive Laurent Abadie.

In the run-up to March 2019, a number of multinational firms have said they plan to move jobs out of the UK.

Several Japanese financial companies have said they intend to move their main EU bases away from London.

Panasonic's decision was driven by a fear that Japan could start considering the UK a tax haven if it cuts corporate tax rates to attract business, Mr Abadie told the Nikkei Asian Review newspaper.

If Panasonic ends up paying less tax in the UK, that could render it liable for a bigger tax bill in Japan.

Mr Abadie told the Nikkei Asian Review that Panasonic had been considering the move for 15 months, because of Brexit-related concerns such as access to free flow of goods and people.

The newspaper said employees dealing with auditing and financial operations would move, but those dealing with investor relations would stay in the UK.

Up to 20 people could be affected out of a staff of 30.

A spokesperson confirmed to the BBC that the registration of Panasonic's European headquarters would move in October.

However, the spokesperson said the firm could not comment on the numbers of people who would have to move to Amsterdam.

In 2016, the UK government pledged to cut corporation tax to encourage businesses to continue investing in the UK after the Brexit referendum.

Britain voted to leave the EU in 2016, but with less than a year to go, the UK and the EU are struggling to reach consensus on the terms of the exit.

Japan is a major investor in the UK, where more than 800 Japanese companies employ more than 100,000 people.

However, financial firms including Nomura, Sumitomo Mitsui and Daiwa have already said they will no longer maintain their EU headquarters in London.

so much for project fear eh ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45350594

..so Salmond is/has been crowdfunding to... fight a legal case against the Govt. he helped set up/run.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-mod-fears-need-for-new-port-in-cyprus-to-serve-raf-akrotiri-mpbs95jrt

Brexit: MoD fears need for new port in Cyprus to serve RAF Akrotiri

Britain would have to spend tens of millions of pounds building a port to service its military base in Cyprus after a no-deal Brexit, officials have concluded.

Plans for the facility at RAF Akrotiri are already being drawn up as part of preparations to limit the impact of Britain leaving the EU without a trade agreement.

Equipment and other goods headed for the base travel through Cypriot commercial ports. Officials said that customs and other inspections imposed by the EU after a no-deal Brexit would seriously threaten operations.

better and better by the day.

**Future War Cultist**

Ketara wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
If you’re still here Ketara, what do you think of the EFTA/EEA option? Especially as a means to an end?

I think you're on the right track, but that the time for such things has passed.

There was a point just after we'd voted and before we'd issued our notice that there was another path. Namely; dialling up Switzerland, Norway, and all the other "one foot iner's" to work out some sort of united position for renegotiating everything with the EU. Seeking to set up, in effect, the two tier Europe bandied about for so long. Judging by the noises which came out of Brussels post-vote, the shock of losing the referendum would likely have been enough to jolt things moving in that direction.

It would have been an opportunity to make it not about 'us', per se; but a way of progressing forward in harmony with a number of European neighbours, harnessing a lot of the discontent which exists over the current EU setup. It would also have cut out a lot of the ill-feeling, and soothed many of the worries that those who voted Remain had (and still have), because there could have been a fair bit of give and take over what 'associate' membership looked like. Certainly, it would have been the most democratic way of taking all views into account after the referendum.

But now? No, after mulling it over, I think not. We've gone too far into negotiations to suddenly involve other parties (leaving aside the question of why on earth they'd be interested). I lay that blame at the door of the Tory party; and more specifically, May's desire to hold an election. Her weakening of her majority gave the dozen odd hard Brexiteers sufficient clout to nudge us away from such things.

Now we've little choice but to either abdicate the previous vote and fall back into line, or carry on to the (quite possibly bitter) conclusion. The third way is shut.*

*And yes, that was an LOTR reference.

I never got a chance to respond to this. You’re right, sadly. That opportunity, that momentum, was squandered almost instantly. It’s not so much the vote but poor bad governance and complete political ineptitude that’s put us here now.

Out of the two options we have left, what would you go with? A crash out could be...would be...damaging and bitter, but I fear that if the process was called off the establishment would double down to make sure the option is never offered again.

What a mess.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

They're running boys! They're running!

The EU is on the run. The German car makers have came through for us

I always knew that at the first sight of British cold steel, the Europeans would roll up the white flag.

Barnier said, and I quote:

We are prepared to offer Britain a partnership such as there never has been with any other third country.

From the Guardian's live feed:

France’s President, Emmanuel Macron, is preparing to push other EU leaders to agree a Brexit deal with Britain, according to a report in the Times.
Macron is hoping to persuade fellow leaders that a close relationship with Britain after Brexit will promote a united Europe.
He will use a summit in Austria next month to outline a new structure for European alliances, the Time said, quoting unnamed diplomatic sources. The idea is based on “concentric circles” with the EU and the euro at the core and Britain in a second ring.
If this is the case, it will be a major boost to Theresa May, who has been hoping to strengthen her hand in negotiations by persuading individual leaders that a decent Brexit deal for Britain will be good for the EU.

**Future War Cultist**

Call me cautiously optimistic. Words is one thing, but action is something else.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Call me cautiously optimistic. Words is one thing, but action is something else.

True, but it's not like the EU to blink like this.

**Future War Cultist**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
True, but it's not like the EU to blink like this.

Don’t get me wrong, it is a significant development.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
True, but it's not like the EU to blink like this.

Don’t get me wrong, it is a significant development.

In my humble opinion, I think this will be the final offer from the EU. Naturally of course, the devil will be in the detail, but from my reading, the EU are in no mood to prolong this any further. They have enough problems of their own to sort, and another 2 years of Brexit is the last thing they need.

I'm sorry to say this to Remainers, but I think you're going to get cut loose. Too much water under the bridge now.

**A Town Called Malus**

You are assuming that this offer, whatever it is, will actually be acceptable to the hardcore brexiteers in the tory party.

Also, this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-dollar-exchange-rates-brexit-deal-michel-barnier-a8514181.html

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
You are assuming that this offer, whatever it is, will actually be acceptable to the hardcore brexiteers in the tory party.

Also, this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-dollar-exchange-rates-brexit-deal-michel-barnier-a8514181.html

Barnier wouldn't have said what he said without first getting the nod from EU top brass, and if it's a half-decent deal, say EEA++, then there are enough moderates in the country to boot the hard core Remainers and Brexiteers into touch.

I've been saying for weeks now that EEA/EFTA is my preferred option. If this comes close to replicating that, I'll take it.

I would say to moderate Remain supporters as well, that this could be a reasonable deal for your side, which respects the referendum vote, but gives us a smooth exit with minimum disruption.

**tneva82**

Well you will have to play by EU rules to get access to single market and financial passport. So free movement for people etc. So in short you will be following our rules but with no saying on them.

**Steve steveson**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

France’s President, Emmanuel Macron, is preparing to push other EU leaders to agree a Brexit deal with Britain...

The idea is based on “concentric circles” with the EU and the euro at the core and Britain in a second ring.

So we are going to be on the "level down" from full membership, like EEA/EFTA membership. We have no idea what the strings are, but I bet the four freedoms will remain one of them. It would not suprise me if this comes after the EEA idea not being completely shot down by the hard brexit lot. Hardly a shock. The only question that remains is if schengen area rules will apply. I would bet that this ends up being the same as being in in all but name and influence. It will be interesting to see what the final offer is...

**Howard A Treesong**

May has tied herself to guaranteeing an end to free movement. She’s just said it again this morning in Kenya in no uncertain terms. The EU have it as a key principle. Someone’s going to have to budge and lose a lot of face to avoid ‘no deal’. If May does she’s finished.

**Herzlos**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
They're running boys! They're running!

The EU is on the run. The German car makers have came through for us

I always knew that at the first sight of British cold steel, the Europeans would roll up the white flag.

Are we reading the same news? Barnier made it very clear that the deal won't interfere with the EU's integrity - so no Freedom of goods without people.

It's showing the EU is still willing to negotiate (as they always have been), but that it's bottom line is still clear. I think they might be pushing to try and make some progress.
The only shifting point I can see is that they're willing to negotiate something bespoke, rather than making us take an off the shelf option. That's great news, if we can decide what the gak we want to do.

I've seen nothing about German car makers on any white flags.

Concentric rings makes me thing it'll be something outside the EEA, possibly more like Turkey. This might even be acceptable to the hardcore Leavers, but I've no idea where it will leave things like the economy or the Irish border.

**tneva82**

Yeah white flag as if. Well DINLT doesn't live on this reality anyway but on his fantasy realm he only peeks out to try to get UK wrecked anyway.

**Future War Cultist**

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah white flag as if. Well DINLT doesn't live on this reality anyway but on his fantasy realm he only peeks out to try to get UK wrecked anyway.

I’ve had enough of your spam and personal attacks so you’re reported.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

**Kilkrazy**

I think it's best to wait for the actual EU proposal.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Kilkrazy wrote:
I think it's best to wait for the actual EU proposal.

The language is pretty significant, though.

I think Ketara posted an excellent point the other day. 2 years ago, if we had pushed the EEA/EFTA route in cooperation with say, sympathetic countries like Denmark, made it clear that this wasn't personal, that we still wanted to deal with the EU, whilst retaining more sovereignty, but that we had serious concerns about freedom of movement and further integration, we could have had the 2 speed Europe.

The EU, numb from Brexit, but willing to talk, might have signed up for such a scenario. Regardless of your views on immigration, it's a major issue now in Europe. We could have thrashed out a deal that kept everybody happy whilst retaining the core of the EU's 4 freedoms.

The UK + EFTA, could have been 'orbiting' the EU, close ties could have been maintained on say, the environment (which I have never been against) and Brexit could have been smooth and orderly.

Instead, we got Conservative party feuds played out on the international stage, and a pre-referendum EU that thought we were bluffing. Alarm bells should have been ringing in Brussels when Cameron turned up.

**jouso**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
I think it's best to wait for the actual EU proposal.

The language is pretty significant, though.

I think Ketara posted an excellent point the other day. 2 years ago, if we had pushed the EEA/EFTA route in cooperation with say, sympathetic countries like Denmark, made it clear that this wasn't personal, that we still wanted to deal with the EU, whilst retaining more sovereignty, but that we had serious concerns about freedom of movement and further integration, we could have had the 2 speed Europe.

The EU has been extremely clear from day one that the four pillars will stay. Even the traditional British allies like Denmark and the Netherlands are on record saying there's no pick and choose, and no fundamental change unless from within.

The EU will not fundamentally change just for one member, much less one on the way out.

**Steve steveson**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
I think it's best to wait for the actual EU proposal.

The language is pretty significant, though.

I think Ketara posted an excellent point the other day. 2 years ago, if we had pushed the EEA/EFTA route in cooperation with say, sympathetic countries like Denmark, made it clear that this wasn't personal, that we still wanted to deal with the EU, whilst retaining more sovereignty, but that we had serious concerns about freedom of movement and further integration, we could have had the 2 speed Europe.

The EU, numb from Brexit, but willing to talk, might have signed up for such a scenario. Regardless of your views on immigration, it's a major issue now in Europe. We could have thrashed out a deal that kept everybody happy whilst retaining the core of the EU's 4 freedoms.

The UK + EFTA, could have been 'orbiting' the EU, close ties could have been maintained on say, the environment (which I have never been against) and Brexit could have been smooth and orderly.

Instead, we got Conservative party feuds played out on the international stage, and a pre-referendum EU that thought we were bluffing. Alarm bells should have been ringing in Brussels when Cameron turned up.

We could, but there is no way the major players in leave (BoJo, Reese Mogg, Farage et al.) would have accepted it at that stage. The only reason the main players in the Tory party are quiet now is they don't care if we stay or leave, all they care about is getting as much power as they can.

**jouso**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
You are assuming that this offer, whatever it is, will actually be acceptable to the hardcore brexiteers in the tory party.

Also, this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-dollar-exchange-rates-brexit-deal-michel-barnier-a8514181.html

Barnier wouldn't have said what he said without first getting the nod from EU top brass, and if it's a half-decent deal, say EEA++, then there are enough moderates in the country to boot the hard core Remainers and Brexiteers into touch.

And it's not EEA++, it would be something less than current EEA because, again, the red lines prevent anything else. A Canada+ if you wish.