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Sorry Double post

lol waffles - triple post.

My gripe with the rules ends at your 3rd point.

Im pretty happy with the wording of that IC specail rules bit.

Im also pretty happy with the ork dex specificing what it does.

Because im pretty happy that the warboss counts as part of the unit.

There isnt a page where it says what youve asked for. You need to read the IC rules, then the USR bit.. then go onto the dex. its a linear progression where you retain information from all three steps to come up with a conclusion. Its pretty simple.

btw, if you were to add in a number (lets say 2.b) inbetween ur point 2 and 3.. it could read : 2.b) you have have a unit with a special rule. (Copy pasted)

I can see you dont agree with that train of thought. Cool. I dont own ne orks nor plan to get any FYI. I want 6 ironclads (see army lists)

/Fin

Then you should write to GW and tell them you think IC should gain the benefits of the units they join.

Yes I am also happy with they way the rules are written. ICs that are part (read: joined with) of a unit with special rules do not benefit from the special rules unless the rule specifically permits them to. This is all on one page. In one paragraph. No retention of information is necessary.

Unfortunately because they do not, until it is FAQed the warboss will not gain the benefits. This rule is put in place here to stop abuse and in this case, while it may not be abuse, you have to abide by the rules.

Example of needing to abide by the rules when it doesn't make sense.
Deep striking units take dangerous terrain tests when DSing into difficult ground...
Lictors can only DS into difficult ground that is area terrain.
Lictors always make dangerous terrain tests when they enter play.

It may not make sense. But you need to play by the rules.

Edit: I did not waffle, you didn't understand my argument the first time so it needed to be revised so you could. It still remains the same.

One of those times where I'm not even going to read 5 pages of back and forth arguments.

We'll just be playing it the way we always have, and let SM captains and Warbosses benefit from those rules. Advantage of owning the 'house' and being able to write the 'house rules'.

I think one of the main components of RAW is that we first all agree to use it. And I never have. I notice when the RAW crowd starts dominating the store, many other players leave, and don't come back.

Carry on though, I bet you can get 12 pages out of this one.)

lol waffles is just a term I use because its random (enough to be funny etc) and your waffle man reminded me of the saying..

I was lol'in to ur triple post apologising for the double post. Chill

Im not sure the word permits is in there. Specified in the rule itself < Is. The ork doc tools rule does specify.

I havent got the nid codex to hand to I cant comment/check

It doesnt need to not make sense, (although are you sure its got exemptions to difficult terrain tests.. flesh hooks maybe?) dangerous methods of infiltration and deep striking may incour wounds in transit to said location. I can dig that. You do need to play by the rules I agree, Why should I write to GW? Im quite happy understanding the rules as I do.

To quote (Youve been doing it loads)

Specified in the rule itself < Is. The ork doc tools rule does specify.

Like I said. /Fin

This is how I look at it in a simplified manner

A=B
B=C
Then, A=C

IC=Unit
Dok's Tools=works for Unit he is with
Then Dok's Tools=Works for Unit (IC) he is with

Also lets have some fun with the nay-sayer logic

Lets say a Chappy and a Captain went for a walk together down the board.

They are within 2" and holding hands

Chappy rules say "Honour of the Chapter: A Chaplain utterly embodies the honour of the Chapter. He, and all members of a squad he has joined, are fearless, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rule book."

Fearless from the Warhammer 40,000 rule book: "Fearless troops automatically pass all morale and pinning tests they are required to take, and will never fall back. They can however go to ground voluntarily. This special rule is gained by any independent character joining a fearless unit. However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule. If a unit is falling back suddenly gains the rule, it will automatically regroup at the beginning of its next movement phase, regardless of all normal restrictions on regrouping."

Now for the fun part.

1) Going by the nay-sayers argument: Chappy cannot pass Fearless to any IC because it is a special USR rule.

2) Both are IC, so going by the logic from (1. See above) then when an IC joins a unit that is not fearless (chappy [fearless] to a captain [not-fearless]) he (chappy) would lose fearlessness, OR going by the other part of the same rule would he instead an IC (captain) join a fearless unit (chappy) then *gain* fearless per the rule. Which one is it?

This conundrum comes from this logic that abilities meant to work with other units cannot work with ICs.

See what you did there guys, we just created a conundrum with this line of thinking. Good job (being funny here)

The flaw in your argument is that a Chaplain is not fearless, he has a special rule that grants him and any unit he joins that ability.

Yes, but does he's rule make him fearless? Yes

going by the nay sayer argument, he cannot grant fearless to an IC.

So the argument is not flawed, try to keep up.

padixon wrote:Yes, but does he's rule make him fearless? Yes

going by the nay sayer argument, he cannot grant fearless to an IC.

So the argument is not flawed, try to keep up.

AND

Now for the fun part.

1) Going by the nay-sayers argument: Chappy cannot pass Fearless to any IC because it is a special USR rule.

2) Both are IC, so going by the logic from (1. See above) then when an IC joins a unit that is not fearless (chappy [fearless] to a captain [not-fearless]) he (chappy) would lose fearlessness, OR going by the other part of the same rule would he instead an IC (captain) join a fearless unit (chappy) then *gain* fearless per the rule. Which one is it?

2 ICs can not join together to be a unit. This is against the rules. If the chappy joins a unit that is not fearless it becomes fearless. If there is an IC attached to the unit that is not fearless and then the chappy joins, then by the rules for fearless, the squad gains fearless then loses fearless since not all members of the squad have it. This is clear in the rules.

This conundrum comes from this logic that abilities meant to work with other units cannot work with ICs.

See what you did there guys, we just created a conundrum with this line of thinking. Good job (being funny here)

1) Is a warboss an IC
YES

2) Is he joining a unit with special rules?
YES

3) Do the rules for an IC joining a unit with special rules say he can benefit?
NO

This is clear Padixon. Even if he is part of the unit the rules for IC joining units say the units special rule needs to say "a IC joined to this unit does not gain the rule"

You are arguing that an IC is part of the unit, I am not disagreeing I am simply pointing out that regardless of the fact he is part of the unit, the rules for IC say he does not get the special rule the unit poses.

The IC rules never mention where the USR comes from as mattering, they just simply have it and can't give it to the boss.

Yes a chaplain grants fearless. His rules say he and the squad he has joined are fearless. Yes if an IC then joins the unit they are no longer fearless. These are all the rules.

Padixon, the same point is being made here. UNLESS you can find a rules page in the ork codex where it says specifically that the IC joined to the squad benefits from the rule, he does not benefit. Yes the squad has FNP, but the IC joined to it does not. This is what the IC rules state.

Razerous wrote:
Im not sure the word permits is in there. Specified in the rule itself < Is. The ork doc tools rule does specify.

I havent got the nid codex to hand to I cant comment/check

It doesnt need to not make sense, (although are you sure its got exemptions to difficult terrain tests.. flesh hooks maybe?) dangerous methods of infiltration and deep striking may incour wounds in transit to said location. I can dig that. You do need to play by the rules I agree, Why should I write to GW? Im quite happy understanding the rules as I do. Yes, ignorance is bliss .

To quote (Youve been doing it loads) yes, when arguing a point with multiple posters this is neccessary

Specified in the rule itself < Is. The ork doc tools rule does specify.

You will need to clarify this for me since I do not understand what you mean by this. Are you saying the Docs tools do say that the IC can benefit? If you are you are reading a different version of the codex then I am. The Docs tools make no mention of an IC that joins the unit. The DO say the unit gets the special rule and this is not in question. What is in question is that an IC that joins this unit with a special rule does not benefit from a squads special rule, unless it speciffically says so.

Modquisition on:
-This is a reminder gentlemen, to be civil and argue the points of the discussion.

Modquisition off.

I will do my best to keep it civil Frazzled but you may have to visit this thread more often now

2 ICs can not join together to be a unit. This is against the rules. If the chappy joins a unit that is not fearless it becomes fearless. If there is an IC attached to the unit that is not fearless and then the chappy joins, then by the rules for fearless, the squad gains fearless then loses fearless since not all members of the squad have it. This is clear in the rules

This here my friend is where you are mistaken, they sure can.

BRB pg. 48 first paragraph "...They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

this is new to 5th, hence the conundrum.

Please re-read the conundrum and see if we can figure out how that would work going by your interpretation of the rule.

To re-hash as simple as I can:

Fearless "...This special rule is gained by any IC joining a fearless unit".

Ok so a Captain (IC not fearless) joins a Chaplain ( IC fearless) gains fearless.

Fearless later on in the same paragraph "...However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he losses this special rule."

Ok, so a Chaplain (IC Fearless) is joined with a non fearless unit (Captain IC not fearless) so he losses fearless.

See the conundrum.

Facts to note: IC are units in and of themselves. BRB pg. 3 "A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as 'units'

So, a IC is a unit.

But if you (proverbial you, not 'you') want to argue this further than in annihilation games, IC would not count because only enemy 'units' can give 1 kill point (pg. 91 lower left hand corner in the little box)

So IC are units.


You all know my stance I say ICs are units, so anything that says 'unit' in it are also referring to ICs without ever 'having' to say the words "Independent characters", and in such complying with the rule "unless specified in the rule itself..." as the word "unit" referring to GW own definition of unit does indeed imply ICs.

Sense A=B, B=C, then A=C.

EDIT: It must be know, to those that don't have the SM book, the Chaplain passes fearless to the 'squad' he is with. I am using the nay sayers version of their interpretation to represent the inability of the Chaplain to pass fearless to the poor captain.

The manager at my local store (not a red-shirt) said that both, an IC in a unit with a Dok as well as a mob lead by Grotsnik would get the FNP roll.

Again, we fall back to your 3rd point (this time to padixon)

3) Do the rules for an IC joining a unit with special rules say he can benefit?
NO

Yes yes yes yes yes YES YES yes & no.. I mean yes. (BECAUSE IT SPECIFICALLY STATES SO)

The rules.

Look at the mad-doc entry.

What do they say.

There.. whatever they say (I shant quote as I cant remember) its enough. There it is. Its enough. You dont think its enough? I do.

Its there, in that ork codex. Everything else possibly being messed up can be messed up (So dont try and bring in other examples to reinforce your point as thier generally a bit sketchy neways.. fleshhooks for the lictors (Or its okay to get wounds deepstriking like that), Cato - it again says in the rules how things are done, quite clearly)

There is and will never be a referance which states what you want it to state. It doesnt exisit and most importantly of all, it doesnt need to exisit.

/Fin

frgsinwntr wrote:
hmm let me read this... and respond...

You missed the as described on page 75 of the rule book. It references the USR section in the new rule book too so I don't see this as a problem.

NOW if you attached an IC to the unit he would not gain scout . In fact in this case both would lose the rule since it is marked with *. This is analogous to the nobz + warboss debate

Since the information in red didnt lend anything of value to the discussion, I omitted it.

You asked to see something that granted a usr but didnt have the usr, and i provided. However, my argument still stands.

The units have a special rules section in their entries. These are the unit's special rules. Unless the painboyz dok tools entry says it adds FNP to the units special rules (similar to feeder tendrils), it doesnt. So it's not one of the unit's special rules.

Its not even in the special rules section of the Painboy's entry, it's referenced in the wargear section.

And to add to the above line. If it were in the Special Rules section of the painboy's entry, it wouldnt confer FNP to the IC.

I'll rehash: The special rules in the Nobz unit entry are: Furious Charge, Mob Rule, and Waaagh!. So if an IC joined the unit and it didnt have these, it wouldnt get these. But since Doks Tools are a piece of wargear (different section from special rules), and the wording says it confers FNP to the unit, the IC would get it.

Using the Chaplain example, his special rules doesnt include fearless, it includes Honour of the chapter (yes it is worded that it grants fearless to himself and any unit he has joined, but is not fearless under his special rules). If it merely said fearless in his SR section he wouldnt grant it to the unit he joins. Why? because it's in his special rules section. If he had a piece of wargear that said the chaplains unit has fearless, it's not in his special rules and would grant it to whatever unit he joined.


Thus:
This utilizes the rule on pg 48 saying a unit doesnt share it's special rules, utilizes the special rules entry for the unit, and utilizes any other rules (wargear) that may come into effect not covered under the special rules entry for the unit.


Regardless, this is how I'll see it until GW rules on it officially. Good points though frgsinwntr, i'll check back later to see how things are going in here.

gotta go get me some waffles.

what is the exact wording in the ork dex regarding the pain boy, and his tools??

Razerous wrote:Again, we fall back to your 3rd point (this time to padixon)

3) Do the rules for an IC joining a unit with special rules say he can benefit?
NO

Yes yes yes yes yes YES YES yes & no.. I mean yes. (BECAUSE IT SPECIFICALLY STATES SO)

The rules.

Look at the mad-doc entry.

What do they say.

There.. whatever they say (I shant quote as I cant remember) its enough. There it is. Its enough. You dont think its enough? I do.

Its there, in that ork codex. Everything else possibly being messed up can be messed up (So dont try and bring in other examples to reinforce your point as thier generally a bit sketchy neways.. fleshhooks for the lictors (Or its okay to get wounds deepstriking like that), Cato - it again says in the rules how things are done, quite clearly)

There is and will never be a referance which states what you want it to state. It doesnt exisit and most importantly of all, it doesnt need to exisit.

/Fin

dude, lol, never argued against it and totally agree.

like I said just a few posts up, if an IC is a unit than something that effects "units" (i.e. dok's tools) also affect the IC. here is a quote from me

Facts to note: IC are units in and of themselves. BRB pg. 3 "A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as 'units'

So, a IC is a unit.

But if you (proverbial you, not 'you') want to argue this further than in annihilation games, IC would not count because only enemy 'units' can give 1 kill point (pg. 91 lower left hand corner in the little box)

So IC are units.


You all know my stance I say ICs are units, so anything that says 'unit' in it are also referring to ICs without ever 'having' to say the words "Independent characters", and in such complying with the rule "unless specified in the rule itself..." as the word "unit" referring to GW own definition of unit does indeed imply ICs.

Sense A=B, B=C, then A=C.

EDIT: pg 38. Ork codex for Dok's tools under heading Wargear: "A Painboy is an expert at repairing the sturdy Ork physique using a variety of mean-looking tools. He confers the Feel No Pain ability to his unit."

When I initially read the rules, my impression was that doc's tools grant FNP to an attached IC and that an IC with those tools granted FNP to a unit he was attached to. My gut feeling is that is what was intended.

However, a literal reading of the RAW prohibits this. When playing friendlies you should have no problem with the first interpretation. However, you may need to iron this out beforehand in other situations...

Thank you Utan.

The other 4 posters are not reading the rules they are going with what they feel is intended.

I will not argue the point with them any longer as they have no provided me with a rules reference in the doc tools that says "Independent characters joined to this unit benefit from FNP"

When they provide me with this rules reference page I will accept it.

According to the IC joining a unit rules the Doc tools would need to say this. And they do not.

Being that they can only say doc tools give the FNP to a unit which is not being argued.

The only mis conception I can come up with is the fact that they are ignoring the fact that the IC is still an IC while part of the unit. He never loses his IC status. The only time this would be true is if the unit were a retinue.

I will not accept the "but doc tools say the unit gets it!" since you're not dealing with the unit you are dealing with a specific situation when a IC JOINS the unit that has the special rules.

Envy89 wrote:what is the exact wording in the ork dex regarding the pain boy, and his tools??

ten words

The pain boy confers feel no pain to his unit.

Since this is not being argued I don't understand why they keep referencing it.

I received this reply from John Spencer:

1. Does an Ork Painboy grant Feel No Pain to a Warboss that joins the Painboys unit? If so, does this apply in CC?
Yes and yes.

2. Does a Waagh! Increase the WS of a Warboss that joins a unit of Nobz with such a banner?
Yes.

This is basic common sense. Any other interpretation is RAW extremism (take that stuff back to the CSM stronghold from which it spawned) and TFG behavior.

olympia wrote:I received this reply from John Spencer:

1. Does an Ork Painboy grant Feel No Pain to a Warboss that joins the Painboys unit? If so, does this apply in CC?
Yes and yes.

2. Does a Waagh! Increase the WS of a Warboss that joins a unit of Nobz with such a banner?
Yes.

This is basic common sense. Any other interpretation is RAW extremism (take that stuff back to the CSM stronghold from which it spawned) and TFG behavior.

And I recieved the exact opposite response from the same place.

Olympia, you are not arguing the rule. Provide me with a rules page where it says the docs tools give ICs that join the unit the USR.

Frig,
I talked to the GW store today. They said they defer to Mr. Spencer on all rules questions. They also suggested that to avoid confusion in the future you should just pose a question to them rather than offer your interpretation. It seems that the answer you received was mistakenly thought to refer to the '*' rule.

Hey padixon - I was refering to Frgsinwntr's 3rd point, that was addressed to you, rather than directing all that jazz at you directly.

My bad.

Frgsinwntr - looks like your on the loosing side of this argument..


All you and I disagree on is the application of the word 'specified'

In the : Unless specificed in the rule itself

Normally on such a simple disagreement, Id flip a coin each time & go with that but as its quite plainly - from multiple sources - the way it is & that all these counter rebuttals that have been brought into it are basically irrelivant.

So, im afraid (I do like a good arguement, but this ones done)

/fin

I know both sides would like to be right but seriously, how many people actually field the mad doc?

And with any other rules dispute that has no "official" answer why can't you just bring it up at the start of the game and if the other guy doesn't see it that way then role a d6?

asugradinwa wrote:I know both sides would like to be right but seriously, how many people actually field the mad doc?

And with any other rules dispute that has no "official" answer why can't you just bring it up at the start of the game and if the other guy doesn't see it that way then role a d6?

It's not just about the doc because both Mad Doc Grotsnik and the Painboy provide FNP to their unit with the same piece of wargear: Dok's Tools.

And any Space Marine Command Squad would like to know if their Apothecary can provide emergency surgery to the Chapter's greatest heroes or not. My local group will probably all agree on "the unit" in this case including any IC that joined it. After all he could be off doing something nasty somewhere else, and he risks running off the board with a falling-back squad.

Spetulhu wrote:And any Space Marine Command Squad would like to know if their Apothecary can provide emergency surgery to the Chapter's greatest heroes or not. My local group will probably all agree on "the unit" in this case including any IC that joined it. After all he could be off doing something nasty somewhere else, and he risks running off the board with a falling-back squad.

Well, look at the specific rules text for the narcethium (p. 55): "As long as the apothecary is alive, all models in the squad have the Feel No Pain universal special rule." This rule specifically notes that all models in the unit have the USR, NOT that the unit itself has the USR. If the independent character joined a unit that had Feel No Pain, he would not have the USR; however, the Apothecary's narcethium rule is different from "the command squad has feel no pain." However, since independent characters who have joined units count as members of those units, the Apothecary's narcethium rule still grants them Feel No Pain.

Fetterkey wrote:
Well, look at the specific rules text for the narcethium (p. 55): "As long as the apothecary is alive, all models in the squad have the Feel No Pain universal special rule." This rule specifically notes that all models in the unit have the USR, NOT that the unit itself has the USR. If the independent character joined a unit that had Feel No Pain, he would not have the USR; however, the Apothecary's narcethium rule is different from "the command squad has feel no pain." However, since independent characters who have joined units count as members of those units, the Apothecary's narcethium rule still grants them Feel No Pain.

Now you are playing the semantics game.

Pg 3. 5th edition rule book definition of the word 'unit'

"A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group..." it then goes on to explain that units can also be vehicles, MC, lone heroes and stuff.

So how can "members of a squad" apply to ICs when "several models that fight as a group" not?

Is not an IC part of a group fighting with them as he is also a member of a squad he joins?

Things to ponder

Edit, I'm NOT disagreeing with you brother,in fact I agree, just using your line to introduce a line of thinking I think some people are missing.