Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nothing, I've branched out into WM/Hordes and have large armies for both systems. I've also played a lot of the specialist line and have also wanted to get into Battletech as I love the universe.

But I always go back to 40K. It's like an old, worn, comfortable jacket that I just refuse to get rid of. I like the universe GW has created, and the large number of armies keeps my modelling side happy. I can convert many different things and there are almost limitless army ideas that fit the fluff.

I still have all my PP minis, but I rarely work on them as there isn't much room for converting in the WM/H rulesets. On the other side I have at least four 40K projects running at any one time, from IG to Deathwing, to Chaos to preheresy Marines. It lets me be creative with my modelling time, and that's where I spend most of my time in the hobby.

I currently very happy with Warmachine. I'm really to try new systems, but I want to see some people make the investment first. There are a few people at my LGS that bought flames of war stuff. They haven't actually played with it yet, so you won't catch me playing FoW for now.

Cheese Elemental wrote:We have virtually no player base for any tabletop games other than 40K, Fantasy, and War of the Ring. Anyone who doesn't play those plays an RPG.

So? What's stoppping you creating one if you fancy trying something different? If you're happy with GW, fine. But if you fancy a change why not lay out a few quid and try and get a friend interested in something different? As I posted further up the thread, for the cost of a battalion box, let alone the price of a new army you can try out an entirely different game if you want. All that's lacking is the will.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I hardly consider 500 pts of WM a "real" army - it's a small skirmish force, whereas 40k is a large skirmish force.

And fact for fact, my dollars don't go as far with WM, when I look at playable models per dollar spent as any kind of metric. Especially when one factors in how WM milks you into buying all of their rulebooks.

500pts. is a very common game size with 750pts. contending with it for the defualt game size for Wm due to the inclusion of Epic casters at the 750pt. level.

For 40K the most comparable game size is 1500pts. though I rarely meet anyone that wants to play less than 2000pts.

I can build a balanced AND competitive WM force at either 500 or 750pts. for any faction for far less then any similarly balanced and competitive 40K force at 1500pts. and definately if we talk the almost standard 2000pts.

That is what we are talking about: Which game is cheaper to build a standard points army for while still building a balanced and "real"( similar in form and diversity to what the average player would build) army and not a gimmick one made up of the same spammed units because you can get them cheap in a starter.

As for the books in WM. All you really need is Prime (the main rulebook). I have not bought any other books and have never found myself needing the others which mostly are fluff and unit info for armies I don't play. It is false that you need all the books to play. The models come with stat cards and the boxsets have the quickstart rules that are rather comphrehensive. Sorry but Wm is still cheaper...

How many models do you have in 500pts of WM? How many models do you have inn 1500 pts of 40k?

I still say that 1500 pts of 40k is a far larger skirmish force, given that 350 pts of WM is just a faction starter box.

As for WM being cheaper, the Retribution pricing says that WM isn't any cheaper aside from fielding fewer models.

JohnHwangDD wrote:How many models do you have in 500pts of WM? How many models do you have inn 1500 pts of 40k?

I still say that 1500 pts of 40k is a far larger skirmish force, given that 350 pts of WM is just a faction starter box.

That argument is a complete straw man.

The number of models in a "viable" force for a game is purely an aesthetic issue when it comes to judging the matter.

You may prefer more models on the table, I may prefer less. It doesn't matter. It also depends on what style of force is involved. An infantry-heavy WM force may well outnumber a vehicle-heavy 40k force. It is simply a red herring.

What DOES matter is the playability of the game at a give price or PV point.

A 500 point WM force gives an emanently playable game with much depth and many tactical options.
As does a 500 point LotR SBG force.
A 500 point 40k force or WFB force, not so much.

Assuming for the sake of argument (and I appreciate it is a BIG assumption, based on the fact that as I say above model count and force composition can vary tremendously) that 500 points of any given game system corresponds price and model-count -wise with any other, then that means that WM (and LotR) are better value for money than 40k and WFB, as you can have a viable, tactically deep game for on average less money. Given those rather heroic assumptions, of course.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you're comparing army boxes, then you need to use a GW army box, either AoBR or a Battalion Box.

Mmm, good point, fair enough.

The Space Marines Battleforce Box comes with a full tac squad, a combat squad, a scout squad, an assault squad, and a Rhino, for $90. So, compared to the Red Block army box, you swap out the heroic walker for an infantry squad, and swap out the DOTCH YAGA! for....a Rhino. And then pay $20 more.

Oh, the Red Block box is also playable out of the box. Don't think the SM one is.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

As for WM being cheaper, the Retribution pricing says that WM isn't any cheaper aside from fielding fewer models.

But thats the point. Wm units/models MAY cost a similar or higher amount then comparable 40K models, but the fatc remains that you need to buy less to play a standard game of WM then you do a standard game of 40K and that is all that matters for purposes of this discussion.

Wm IS cheaper to play then 40k assuming discussion of "standard sized" games for each. The fact thata Cygnar force for Wm COULD cost me as much as a typical Space Marine force costs IF I bought 25 warjacks (probably 22 more then I would ever field in one force) is irrelevant...

We are talking the reality of buying what you need to put togetehr and play a standard sized force for each game. Hypotheticals beyond this are irrelevant.

I play everything that isn't GW, they have sucked enough money out of me and will never get any more, except for the new IG 'dex.

I play;
AT-43
Confrontation (3 and 4)
Battlefield Evolution: world at war
Flames of War
Hordes
Star Wars
Full Thrust
Star Grunt
Babylon 5 Wars
Warmachine
And many others i cannot think of

@Mars. Techpriest on end of first page

I normally play Warmachine and Hordes with a polypocket covering the cards and then write on the cards.

JHDD: Game scale is a part of the aesthetic, but when you're talking army size you should
compare standard game size. What size army do you build for and what do you expect to
face when you go to a tournament/event/pickup game?

40k: 1500, 1850
Warmachine: 500, 750
Warmachine MKII: 35, 50

Saying that a game does not compare in model count is like complaining that Necromunda sucks
because you only have 10 models on the table and not 50. The game is built for 10 models, so
how does it play?

Warmachine is built for 10-40 models. How does that play?

JohnHwangDD wrote:How many models do you have in 500pts of WM? How many models do you have inn 1500 pts of 40k?

I still say that 1500 pts of 40k is a far larger skirmish force, given that 350 pts of WM is just a faction starter box.

As for WM being cheaper, the Retribution pricing says that WM isn't any cheaper aside from fielding fewer models.

1500 points of 40k is a larger skirmish force than 350 of WM. Usually its larger than a 500 point WM force.

If number of models was the lynchpin of a system's quality you could always play any of the 6mm napoleonics at a 1:1 scale. 6 and 15mm beat WH/WM on price per model too. 6 and 15mm WWII models can be used in several systems, making the total cost of these historicals lower. They must be better then! </sarcasm>

WM even rewards a player who buys a couple of idle command models as the command models impact game play. Calgar/Creed/whomever else you like do not modify synergies in 40k as a new warcaster does in WM.
40k is beautiful for fielding lots of models, and the synergies are much easier.

The average cost of either game still runs similar to the cost of a gaming console and a few games.
Minimum components for both are: Core Rules, Models, table supplies. We'll ignore Table supplies for a moment, because they're basically the same for both. All prices MSRP, and presume new entry into game.

Core Rules MSRP 40k: $57.75 WM: $24.99 Note: Army/faction books are not included here as those prices impact models more than rules.
Models:
- to include command, and enough to make a reasonable game (1500 and 500 points)
40k: Army Codex: $22 (lowest of all) 40k then has 16 possible armies - 8 having effectively identical costs
Army Minimum: $215 (IG: HQ, 2 troops,2HW squads. Bonus: 2 fast attack) Note: Minimum 1 HQ, 2 Troops.
WM: No codex necessary.
Army Minimum: $43.99 (Starter box) $43 (averaged non-character jack price) $53 (character Jack) $60 (infantry unit of choice) Note: Minimum is 1 Warcaster and units as desired.

The first argument against this above breakdown is Ebay/online. Bargain hunters can reduce costs however they like. The second is using IG for the 40k example rather than the AOBR. Consumers don't normally go into a store looking to break down a bundle package into what they want and what they can resell. If you want to discuss this, we can take it to PM. Consumers also aren't always going to gravitate to one army over another, hence there being 16 40k factions, and 4+ (if you count Hordes) WM factions. In the end, 40k is a buy in of about $5.96 per model and WM $7.20.

I suppose we have to ask how much your fun is worth?

What stops me is time, money and lack of people to play. I play 40k and Fantasy Battle because that is what my friends play and I enjoy these games, the backgrounds and stories therein. I also play Inquisitor, Mordheim and Blood Bowl again I can easily get a game of any of these and have enough models at home to "host" the game and lend people warbands, characters, teams etc, should the need arise.

I have looked at other systems - namely Warmachine/Hordes and while I thought it sounded interesting it wouldn't be worth my time investing in it. Even if by comparison it is cheaper than 40k and Fantasy Battle I could spend that money on adding new stuff to my existing armies that would actually get used rather than on something which would likely never see the tabletop.

If I were budget-constrained, I wouldn't give WM a first look - from a pure value proposition based on model cost, WM/H is far worse than GW.

If I were going into a small dollar miniatures game, something like OGRE Miniatures is far preferable to WM/H. But at the "beer budget" level, agreeing to 500 pts of WM is the same as agreeing to play 500 to 1000 pts of 40k. And you can certainly agree to do that in your gaming group - that's what we did when 40k first came out and we got new players into things.

If I were severely limited to "pocket money", then none of the above apply, and we look at things like Mordheim or Necromunda, both of which are fantastically playable for less than $50 in models and a common rulebook.

Failing that, you go over to the board games and break out something like Battlelore / Heroscape, which is $50 for the entire group.


But claiming that 500 pts of WM is the "same" as 1500+ pts of 40k is untrue. The game scale is smaller, and you are spending more per model. And that is my point. It's not apples to apples.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I were severely limited to "pocket money", then none of the above apply, and we look at things like Mordheim or Necromunda, both of which are fantastically playable for less than $50 in models and a common rulebook.

Regardless, though, even these can easily get much, much more expensive if you really want to get into them (tools, conversion materials, replacement figures for new gangers, additional gangs, terrain-building materials), so my advice to people who're concerned about the loss of cash has always been and will always be to find some other hobby.

Oh, no doubt.

For example, our local WM player is a Press Ganger, and she probably has at least 1 of everything PP has ever produced. I'm pretty sure she has spent more on WM than I have spent on 40k, lifetime. And if you see my sig, I'm not small potatoes in 40k spend.

But even so, the fact that a Mordheim or Necromunda gang is limited to a dozen or so models helps limit the cost somewhat. Same with Blood Bowl.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I were budget-constrained, I wouldn't give WM a first look - from a pure value proposition based on model cost, WM/H is far worse than GW. ...And that is my point. It's not apples to apples.

By its very nature it can not be an apples to apples discussion. The games operate on a different scale - making the relative value of each model in each game inconsistent.

" from a pure value proposition based on model cost"
<insert 15mm WWII game here> beats GW's cheapest troopers at a cost of $0.28 each. Edit: cost correction as some GW plastics are only approximately 4x more expensive)

WWII 25mm run around $14 for 8 models making infantry more expensive, but the $30 tanks sway that balance.

Also, consider that 1500 points of GW models (at 5.96 each) is about 62 models. $369.52
500 points of WM is around 21 models (at $7.20). $151.20
369.52 - 151.20= 218.32

How would you like to make this apples to apples then JHDD? Matching number of models? Tournament points conventions? Perhaps average game time?

Ogiwan wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you're comparing army boxes, then you need to use a GW army box, either AoBR or a Battalion Box.

Mmm, good point, fair enough.

The Space Marines Battleforce Box comes with a full tac squad, a combat squad, a scout squad, an assault squad, and a Rhino, for $90. So, compared to the Red Block army box, you swap out the heroic walker for an infantry squad, and swap out the DOTCH YAGA! for....a Rhino. And then pay $20 more.

Oh, the Red Block box is also playable out of the box. Don't think the SM one is.

That's irrelevant since Warhammer 40K starts out of the Black Reach box and you add the Battleforce on, giving you:

1 Commander
2x 10 man Tactical Squad
Rhino
1x 5 man Tactical Squad
5 man Scout Squad
5 man Assault Squad

That is a very playable small army.

Asmodai wrote:
That's irrelevant since Warhammer 40K starts out of the Black Reach box...

Um, what about those people who *don't* play Orks or Marines?

Oldgrue wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I were budget-constrained, I wouldn't give WM a first look - from a pure value proposition based on model cost, WM/H is far worse than GW. ...And that is my point. It's not apples to apples.

" from a pure value proposition based on model cost"
<insert 15mm WWII game here> beats GW's cheapest troopers at a cost of $0.28 each. Edit: cost correction as some GW plastics are only approximately 4x more expensive)

WWII 25mm run around $14 for 8 models making infantry more expensive, but the $30 tanks sway that balance.

Also, consider that 1500 points of GW models (at 5.96 each) is about 62 models. $369.52
500 points of WM is around 21 models (at $7.20). $151.20

How would you like to make this apples to apples then JHDD?

Model scale-wise and general play-wise 40k and WM are comparable. The only difference is that WM uses far fewer minis because the WM/H game system is RT-clunky and fails to scale like 40k does.

I think historical WW2 gaming is a different kettle of fish altogether compared to science/steam fantasy, although I do like Flames very much. If I could get my group into this, that'd be awesome.

For me to make the comparison, I'd look at closer model counts, shrinking 40k down to RT-era game sizes, where the rules go back to the same scale of gaming. Also, I wouldn't inflate the GW model cost to $6 each, as even a Tactical Marine is only $3.50, and they're 10/box at the large box price. As I see it, 500 pts of WM is like 500 pts of 40k, with similar model counts, and likely lower costs for the 40k player.

But seriously, who stops at 500 pts or WM or 1500 pts of 40k and calls it their main game? Anyone?

And who seriously looks at WM or 40k as a "budget" game? Anyone?
____

Oldgrue wrote:

Asmodai wrote:That's irrelevant since Warhammer 40K starts out of the Black Reach box...

Um, what about those people who *don't* play Orks or Marines?

What about those people who don't play Therians or whatever-the-humans-are-in-the-AT43-boxed-set?

Starter boxes are comparable, both having the quickstart rules and starter sets. Going beyond that is like comparing AT43 gorillas to 40k Nids.

Nothing stopped me from trying a different system. Now I play Monsterpocalypse!

Around these parts (Adelaide, Australia), we play 40k mostly at 1200 or 1500 points. 1200 is the more common tournament size, and 1500 is a "big" game (and more common for friendlies). We've had one 2000 point tournament in the last two years, and I didn't go because I don't have an army that big (but I have 5 at 1500 points).

1200 makes for a very good game and is quite affordable, especially for Marines or Orks (2x Assault on Black Reach, one extra box, done).

Because no one I know plays anything else. I would like to try out other systems but truthfully it's more money I would have to spend and at my LGS it's only 40k. The only other systems I would want to try is Warmachine and Flames of War.

I used to play Void 1.1. but it went bye-bye.
Currently i'm starting to prepare a force of Anima:Tactics and i'm considering delving into WH: Fantasy or Lotr besides WH40K.

In all honesty the game may not be perfect but for me it's the background, the visuals and the preparation that's my main point of interest. And i'm really not discontent about the 40K system. It does it's job. Perhaps not for some of the harcore players but well enough for one like me who only rarely gets to play.

But above all... nobody plays the others around here. Heck even 40K is rare. Only Fantasy is dominant near me. And perhaps soon a bit of lotr. So if i want a game i go for the big ones.
And since i read the novels and all, i don't mind. Few mini games have the same rich background, if any.

I've danced around the notion of playing different miniature games other than 40k or WHF, but have not talked myself into spending money that could go into my next 40k project on a new game. In the end I absolutely love the fluff behind the 40k universe. I'm an avid reader of the BL novels and until I lose interest I don't see me taking on different projects related to other games.

Also having actual time to play something else would be like finding a needle in a haystack. I play D&D every other week. I try to get in a game of 40k every week and have all the other RL time commitments to deal with. I'm sure there are some other great systems out there; I've just thrown my lot in with GW.

The problem a lot of people have got is this idea of investing in a system where everything is provided on a plate and continued support will go on for ever and there is already a ready-made userbase to play with. That's what you get from GW and it's what the would-be GW rivals are trying to provide.

Longterm wargamers look at things differently.

If you buy historical figures in the standard scales they can generally be used with any ruleset you like. Loads of rules are available, some of them are expensive and some are free. If you play skirmish level games you only need a small number of figures per side. If you want to play something a bit more on the wild side, play a pulp fiction or alternative history game and you can use historical figures along with a few special character figures.

SF/Fantasy games are a somewhat different matter but the ones that are most system-like are the ones that are trying (and often failing) to rival GW. However, there are plenty of SF rulesets around and loads of figures which are in on of the system titles. I am sure there are Fantasy rules and figures too though I'm not so interested in that genre.

I once did a big 15mm SF demogame at a show, using the Laserburn rules, official Laserburn figures for the Imperial forces and the primitive rebel forces were all 15mm historical Aztec animal knights. The scenario objective was a reactor made of a resin SF bunker and a plastic pen holder for the cooling towers.

People should use some adaptability.

I always found this kind of discussions odd especially when it's on WH40K or WH:F boards. People go there to fill entire threads flaming WH40K and WH:F or trying to shove Warmachine etc through people's throats. Not saying it applies to this thread but it reminds me of the phenomenon.
It's... kinda annoying and odd.

Nothing. I'm planing on branching out into Hordes at the moment.

HI all.
Just like to point out most other game systems are far more 'intuiative and elegant rules wise' than 40k and WH.

So dont assume other rule sets are as hard to learn /make sense of as 40k!
Basic rules , exceptions to basic rules , universal special rules that contradict the basic rules and/or basic rule exeptions, and special rules that may contradict universal special rules,basic rules and or any/all of the exceptions ....
All implemented with SEVEN resolution methods !

Most just have basic rules that cover ALL game play . An 2 or 3 resolution methods.Twice a simple rules , twice as much game play =4 times as much fun!

Of course, those games are simpler - they don't cover anywhere near the breadth of 40k. A half-dozen factions (at most), no Tanks or Transports, etc.

Strip out the things that make 40k interesting and 40k becomes just as easy (and boring) as the rest.

Whilst that is true, the reason why 40K is filled with exceptions is because they never sit down and rationalise the system and all codexes for each edition.