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I'm not trying to argue against you, I'm just trying to present a view to balance things out.

Troll maybe, but his comments about the survivability of PMs to Tacticals could have been a little more detailed.

A one-liner sweeping generlization post isn't helping him.

Again, most things are dependent on many factors, but it is a fact that plague marines are durable to the majority of weapons in 40k, small arms.

There are weapons that can drop kick them, but they are more hvy duty gear, requiring more specific and usually less abundant resources to take them out.

My 7 Cents.

Night Lords wrote:
S7 will do just as good against 10 tacts as it will against 5 plagues. Hitting is the same, wounding is the same (on 2s), except plagues get FNP which cuts the wounds in half. The tacts have 2x as many wounds, so it is equal. Strength 3-6 the plagues have the advantage because of T5.

As for power weapons, I was talking about CSM where a fist is the norm, killing on 2s. The fist kill affects the plagues more than it does the tacts due to be outnumbered 2:1 and having the exact same requirements to kill.

What you're saying still isn't remarkably accurate. Average Marine cost is 16 ppm, Plague Marines are 23. Two kills on a Tac squad is 50% more points efficient than one kill on a Plague Marine squad.

Likewise Power Fists lose a lot of effectiveness to Blight Grenades. A Power Fist on a typical Sergeant character charging a Tac squad is going to kill 1.25 Marines. The same fister versus Plagues is going to get .83 Plague Marines due to losing an attack. The points efficiency is basically equal.

One could make a comment on how it gains in subsequent rounds, but it's quite likely that Plague Marines with their own fist and general immunity to normal S4 attacks are slowly beating the assaulting squad to death while Tacticals just crumble.

sourclams wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
S7 will do just as good against 10 tacts as it will against 5 plagues. Hitting is the same, wounding is the same (on 2s), except plagues get FNP which cuts the wounds in half. The tacts have 2x as many wounds, so it is equal. Strength 3-6 the plagues have the advantage because of T5.

As for power weapons, I was talking about CSM where a fist is the norm, killing on 2s. The fist kill affects the plagues more than it does the tacts due to be outnumbered 2:1 and having the exact same requirements to kill.

What you're saying still isn't remarkably accurate. Average Marine cost is 16 ppm, Plague Marines are 23. Two kills on a Tac squad is 50% more points efficient than one kill on a Plague Marine squad.

Likewise Power Fists lose a lot of effectiveness to Blight Grenades. A Power Fist on a typical Sergeant character charging a Tac squad is going to kill 1.25 Marines. The same fister versus Plagues is going to get .83 Plague Marines due to losing an attack. The points efficiency is basically equal.

One could make a comment on how it gains in subsequent rounds, but it's quite likely that Plague Marines with their own fist and general immunity to normal S4 attacks are slowly beating the assaulting squad to death while Tacticals just crumble.

I think you need to read the topic again. This is strictly comparing the survivability of 5 plagues vs 10 tacts. I cant even remember why it was brought up, but thats the reasoning. Plagues are better point for point, but 5 PMs vs 10 Tacts has the tacts in favour under almost any circumstances.

Oh I see, we're ignoring all the things that bounce off of Plague Marines but are quite capable of murdering Tacticals.

Good thread. ::thumbs up::

Whatever, Im not the one that brought this topic up (what does it even have to do with lash?), but all the things that bounce off of plagues are either not used often (ie bolters - i wouldnt even shoot tacticals with them) or in less competitive codex books, and the things that do kill them are spammed because everyone wants to kill MEQs and TEQs.

Ultimate point is, its not unrealistic to say 10 tacts > 5 plagues in terms of survivability.

So this got me thinking:

Chaos Space Marines versus an equal pointed unit of Plague Marines in a firefight (imagine there's an impassable gorge between them or something), at 10"-12" range.

So 9 Chaos Space Marines vs 6 Plague Marines, all Bolters.

Chaos Space Marines, if they started Turn 1, would get 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 saves, 4 wounds, and 2 Feel No Pain rolls for 2 casualties.

That gives 4 Plague Marines the opportunity to shoot back, with 8 shots, 5 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, 1 wound and 1 casualty.

Plague Marines, if they started Turn 1, would get 12 shots, 8 hits, 5 saves, 3 wound for 3 casualties.

The Chaos Space Marine return fire would be 12 shots, 8 hits, 5 saves, 3 wounds for 1 casualty.

Definitely doesn't look like a healthy match-up for Chaos Space Marines.

Close combat wise, if the Chaos Space Marines charged the Plague Marines, with a round of pistol-shooting first, you might expected 9 Chaos Space Marines to charge 6 Plague Marines since bolt pistols are relatively ineffective (9 shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves, 1 Feel No Pain roll, 0 casualties), and since they're I4 to swing first with 18 attacks, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, and one Feel No Pain roll. The Plague Marines would then get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, and one casualty.

Both sides would have 2x melta guns though. I know you did 9 for the purpose of making it 1.5:1 ratio in points, making 2 specials impossible for the CSM and unbalancing, but thats how it is.

Though this would be good to know. 10 Chaos Marines vs 7 Plague Marines (255 points vs 256 points)- Rhino, champ, fist each and IoCG for CSM.
-----
CSM first:

CSM Meltas and Bolters:

Bolters - 16 shots, 10.72 hit, 3.53 wound, 1.16 unsaved, 0.58 killed after FNP.
Meltas - 2 shots, 1.34 hit, 1.11 killed.

Total: 1.69 dead Plagues.

-------

CSM Meltas and Pistols, & Charge:

Meltas - 2 shots, 1.34 hit, 1.11 killed.
Pistols - 8 shots, 5.36 hit, 1.76 wound, 0.58 unsaved, 0.29 after FNP.

I4 CC attacks - 18 attacks (due to defensive nades), 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsave, 0.5 killed after FNP

I3 We'll say 2 plagues are dead at this point.

4 PMs attack back - 8 attacks back, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 0.66 CSM dead

I1 Fists

CSM & Plagues: 2 attacks back each, 1 hits, .83 dead each.

Totals: 1.49 CSM dead (22.35 points), 2.73 PMs dead (62.79 points).

What happens the following turns?


Turn 2:
Rounding up, giving PMs the benefit of the doubt, 8 CSM and 4 PMs.

CSM: 14 attacks, 7 hits, 2.31 wound, 0.76 wound, 0.38 dead | PMs: 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead.

Fist is 0.83 each.

Turn 3:
Rounding up (PM advantage again), 6 CSM, 3 PMs.

CSM: 12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, 0.67 unsaved, 0.33 kills. PM: 6 attacks, 3 hit, 1.5 wound, 0.5 kills.

Fist is 0.83 each.

-----

Essentially due to the fist, the CSM will win out by a little bit. Even given the benefit of rounding kills the PMs still arnt catching up to the CSMs.


If PMs charge, they wont lose the 1.4 guys from shooting, they will kill 1.66 CSM in their shooting, essentially changing the difference between them by 3. Since the previous calculations were so close, its pretty obvious that the plagues will win this one out, especially with those 6-7 (depending if one is killed) extra attacks on charge.




-

You guys have drug this way off topic. This is about Lash and how it's the best psychic ability in the game currently.

Uh, Night Lords? I went with a ratio of Chaos Space Marines to Plague Marine of 9:6 because that works out to 135:138, points-wise.

Sorry, I meant they are 1.5:1 points wise.

Plague Marines do have increased toughness, but they also have less models in the unit, making it more likely that important models go down every time you get shot at.

The most important thing that PMs do is not die. The Meltas/Plasmas and maybe PFist are icing.

Besides, having a small number of models doesn't always hurt you. For example, fewer models often means you can stack the two unsaveable wounds on the same model.

Plague Marines are tough. It's what they do. Stop arguing a point for the sake of arguing it.

So let's go back to Lash...

I thought of a way to explain it that even the macho men will be able to parse...

As we all know, all you macho men are such refined, nuanced, super-great players, playing at such a high level, that all it takes to lose an entire game is one bad decision, one missed chance, one poor gamble.

That's the sort of high stakes, winner take all, devil may care game that you intellectual giants play.

It's the sort of game that gives you the wherewithal to make stunning observations such as "OMG LASH AINT SPECAIL GET SOME RINOS AND STOP CRY LOL TART"

But that's the problem... If one bad move can cost you the game, Lash means you're going to make the WORST POSSIBLE MOVE AVAILABLE about SIX TIMES PER GAME.

It's almost as if you were making the exact move your opponent wanted you to make. Almost. Almost exactly.

Get it?

It's a big deal.

And it's not like the Chaos player spends 150ish points for this, and that's that. He spends 150ish points, gets Lash PLUS he gets a Daemon Prince, which can Lash your Tactical squad as well as singlehandedly kill it in CC.

Actually, he spends 20 points per Lash, for a total of 40 points, which is basically irrelevant in a 1850 point game. And for that virtually irrelevant 40 points, he gets to...

Wait for it...

FORCE YOU TO MAKE THE WORST POSSIBLE MOVE AVAILABLE about SIX TIMES PER GAME.

Thanks, caps, for helping me lend emphasis to the painfull obvious.

To be honest, im a BA player and getting into combat is fine by me, if i get lashed and assaulted, fine, but i do try and avoid it.

Using pods allways leaves me open to get lashed, but once again, why would a lash price be dumb enough to drag a unit of death company towards him? lol

Other way i play is all jump infantry, and lash once again helps me get into combat quicker

Pointless using lash to move me away, since the high movement means no matter how hard they try to lash ill get into combat quickly enough.



As ignoring it goes: Depends on your army really, with meq, its not a huge problem until the blitz start taking apart your transports, then it becomes a slight pain, but nothing impossible to deal with.
What people tend to forget is its either a basic marine with slight stat increaces, or a prince.
either way they need to be close to use it, which means chances are you will be close enough to attack.

If i ever do take a footslogging BA army (which i wont) then ill just focus fire on the oblits 1st, since they are what really gives lash an edge.
Without a hammer unit to use with lash its hardly a game breaker, and can be dealt with pretty quickly if needed.

Wait for it...

FORCE YOU TO MAKE THE WORST POSSIBLE MOVE AVAILABLE about SIX TIMES PER GAME.

If your fething dumb enough to get lashed six times in a game then maybe you should start playing the game more.
Sit back and shoot him, charge in with dedicated CC units, stay in transports, get out of his LOS, all easy options that every army can do.

Lets face it, nidzilla has fun with lash, who the feth wants to lash a godfex any closer? lol, if anything, you will be lashing him away, in which case, another MC moves in for the kill.

Phryxis wrote:But that's the problem... If one bad move can cost you the game, Lash means you're going to make the WORST POSSIBLE MOVE AVAILABLE

I think you may be thinking of "A Word In Your Ear."

To be honest, im a BA player and getting into combat is fine by me, if i get lashed and assaulted, fine, but i do try and avoid it.

Ok, and how about the myriad other things he can do to ruin your day? It's not just to get into combat.

It's to cluster your jump troops up, pie plate them off the table.

It's to push them 2D6" back where they started, so you spend an extra turn or two trying to get into CC.

It's to push you off an objective at the bottom of turn 6, so he wins the game.

Other way i play is all jump infantry, and lash once again helps me get into combat quicker

Not a good starting point that you're going to criticize Lash, and then assume it's going to be used to help your assault army get into assault faster.

Pointless using lash to move me away, since the high movement means no matter how hard they try to lash ill get into combat quickly enough.

No. Have you even read the rules? 2D6". That's an average of 7". With good enough rolls, you will NEVER get to close combat. With average rolls you'll get to combat slower than walking. Is slower than walking "quickly enough?" No. It's not.

But hey, if you do manage to get there, you're still jump infantry so you'll still probably get the assault. Oh, wait, Blight Grenades. You lose.

If i ever do take a footslogging BA army (which i wont)

I beg to differ. 12" - 7" = 5". Whoops, you just took a footslogging army.

But wait, you protest... He can only Lash 2 units, I've got more than that! Ok, fine. So he lets 1 or 2 come on at full speed, blows half of them away with Oblits and PM Plas/Melta, then, as the PMs are finishing them off in CC, your other squads are allowed to move up to eat Oblit shooting.

If your fething dumb enough to get lashed six times in a game then maybe you should start playing the game more.

Yeah, totally dumb. Not as bright as the Lash player, helping an assault army get into assault faster, right?

People deploy their Lashes in different ways, but in a lot of cases it involves Wings. That makes them quite able to be in the right place at the right time. Lash has 24" range. With standard deployment on table edges, he can be Lashing you turn 1. With two HQs, he's Lashing twice per turn.

Here's an example...

Turn 1: He does no Lashing, being cautious.
Turn 2: Lashes twice.
Turn 3: Lashes twice, but you kill a Lash.
Turn 4: Lashes once.
Turn 5: Lashes one, you finish the Lashes off.

That's six. That's six assuming he's cautious turn 1, assuming you kill both of his Lashes by turn 5.

Are you really gonna kill both his HQs any quicker than that? Are you really gonna stay outside of 36" the whole time you're doing it?

Yes, I realize that Mech lists are going to minimize this effect. Ok, great, you just minimized the benefits he gets from 40 points. You've still got a 1810 point army to deal with.

That's the thing about Lash... It offers the potential to totally dominate the game, and if you find a way to counteract it, all you can really do is even the odds, not come out ahead. It's not like he put all his eggs in that basket. It was 40 points.

Being able to move an enemy unit 2D6" ONCE per game is worth 40 points. Chaos can do it all game long for that price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think you may be thinking of "A Word In Your Ear."

Ok, well, I'm not, but now I'm sorta curious to know how you even come up with stuff like this?

If Lash worked on vehicles, it would be broken in the manner you suggest. However, it doesn't, so no big deal.

If Lash worked on vehicles, it would be broken in the manner you suggest. However, it doesn't, so no big deal.

No, I KNOW! TOTALLY! It's not like you can kill any vehicles with 9 Lascannon shots per turn!

Wait...

It's to push them 2D6" back where they started, so you spend an extra turn or two trying to get into CC.

Great, an average roll of 7 means a huge deal with 12" movement plus 6" assault
Still means i move at 1" slower than a basic model after lash lol, no big deal, and you can lash 2 units at max per turn.
How does that help against multiple units charging in? and correct me if im wrong, but once im in CC lash has no use atall.

It's to push you off an objective at the bottom of turn 6, so he wins the game.

And how would a lash model survive 6 turns? thats asking a bit much really, since most CC orientated armies are in combat by turn 2, and most characters are capable of dropping a prince without many problems.

Not a good starting point that you're going to criticize Lash, and then assume it's going to be used to help your assault army get into assault faster.

Why not? a pod drops units behind oblits, meaning they in turn have to shoot them or get assaulted, the prince then only has 2 lash options.
Away, in which ill charge him that turn anyway, or closer, and risk being killed.
grouping them together without a hammer unit has no real use, except to waste time and piss me off

No. Have you even read the rules? 2D6". That's an average of 7". With good enough rolls, you will NEVER get to close combat. With average rolls you'll get to combat slower than walking. Is slower than walking "quickly enough?" No. It's not.

Once again, you cant lash more than 2 units per turn, maybe only 1 if you only take single lash.
How does this stop models with a 12" movement? you would have to roll double 6's every time to keep them away.
With 2 units moving towards them you cant hold them off for more than a turn with lash.


Next point: Which is why i said i wouldnt take a footslogging army
However, i can see 180 orks getting into CC without many problems, oblitz cant really roll off the rounds each turn to dent them.


comment on turns and lashing:

I was talking about a single lash being used 6 times
Now, when pods around him are dropping off termies, dreads and assault units, how do the wings keep him away? in effect, im then dropping threat units all around your line, chaos running a cookie lash list are limited to a small army, meaning you cannot block the pods to any real effect.
Also, 1 turn of shooting when the pods hit wont assaure you that you have done enough.

Units like the death company simply shrug off pretty much any shot unless its instant death.
I cant see someone firing las at a 10 man unit hoping to do well.



On a side note here, ill be playing a double lash list again later this month, so ill drop you the link once i have a batrep up

I just find that lash is more of a psychological advantage more than anything.
People tend to see it and panic about how to stop it.
With a highly mobile army capable of having oblitz in combat by turn 2 you have then lost the main unit of the army, and the real effective end of the lash.

Lets face it, a few units of plague marines wont survive long.
DC have S5, 4 attacks and rending, meaning they chew through them, and vets have power weps, so once again, no problems.
that is then really the mainstay of the army, leaving the lash's and a few units without scoring and without strength.
All you need to do is pick apart the key part of the army.

If im sat on an objective then ill make sure i throw something in the way to stop you from lashing me off it, or ill throw a suicide unit at the prince, or, ill simply send in mephiston or dante (since the both move as jump infantry after a power)

I just think its a good power in all, but once you have lost the key element to it, it becomes nothing more than a simple restriction to you.


Failing that, ive never seen 2 lash armies against eachother, allthough it could be amusing

Lash does work on walkers.

Hmm... Jump Pack Infantry against Lash? "Oops... here's 7" into terrain for you... Take a DT test now AND when you move out on your turn." All the while the DP is flying away from you at 12" if he doesn't want to melee you. Same with a Carnifex (which will can only move 6" without running). He goes an average of 7" backwards each turn and never hits combat. Yeah... you can still beat a Lash player in that situation, but it makes it tougher.

As for DC... Oblits (which can deepstrike to avoid getting hemmed in by Drop Pods) with TL plasma will hurt them pretty dang fast, especially if they're eatting terrain tests multiple times a turn (no FNP for them).

JD21290 wrote:

If your fething dumb enough to get lashed six times in a game then maybe you should start playing the game more.
Sit back and shoot him, charge in with dedicated CC units, stay in transports, get out of his LOS, all easy options that every army can do.

Translation: JUST USE TACTICS!!1 LOLOL

Lets face it, nidzilla has fun with lash, who the feth wants to lash a godfex any closer? lol, if anything, you will be lashing him away, in which case, another MC moves in for the kill.

Because in CrazyWorld, assaulting with 5 Carnifexes while 2 Carnifexes sit in the corner looking at pr0n is way better than assaulting with 7 Carnifexes. I mean 5 Carnifexes because Oblit spam killed 2 Carnifexes. I mean 3 Carnifexes because two Daemon Princes doubleteamed one of my Carnifexes. Er, 2 Carnifexes because mass melta fire killed a Carnifex. LOL I sure wish I had two more Carnifexes to make this assault stick!!! Oh wait...

sourclams wrote:Translation: JUST USE TACTICS!!1 LOLOL

Nice troll, but basic tactics really do work to overcome this kind of thing. In fact, I think I originally put quotes around "tactics" when i mentioned them, since the types of thing you have to use are so simple that they hardly qualify as tactically interesting. In fact, most of them should be intuitively obvious to anyone who understands the basic mechanics of 40k.

Night Lords wrote:Sorry, I meant they are 1.5:1 points wise.

I'm not sure what is getting lost in translation here. Do you mean that they're 3:2 model-wise? Because that's what they are if you have nine Chaos Space Marines versus six Plague Marines, which is almost 1:1 points-wise.

Again, if im in range of a standard unit of plagues for example, why would i rush the prince? i rather stick to CC (with plagues it should last 2 turns or so)
Once jammed in CC the prince and oblits lose all effect.
You cant shoot or lash into combat, meaning that once in CC you are safe from it.
I also fail to see how lash and oblits can keep 10 pods full of troops / dreads from causing problems.

With BA, every unit (minus tracked vehicles and characters) gets a pod as a transport option (some get it free) meaning that by using a pod rain system its impossible to avoid getting dragged into CC unless your playing on a rather huge board.
also, even if you only shred the plagues in combat, you then have no scoring units left, meaning you have to try and table an opponant (not really the army capacity to do so) or stop around 60% of an army from grabbing a single objective.
this is all while your trying to avoid combat at the same time.

I think once the main units are down (plagues and oblits) you dont have anything to really worry about unless the prince does a kamakazi into you, in which case, you kill him off via CC.

Just seems that lash has to rely on so many factors to be 100% amazing in a game.
also, 1: why would i pod near something i can get lashed into?
2: why would i be dumb enough to keep my jump units near dodgy terrain? once oblits have been drawn into combat or been given a much higher priority target they cant really help.
Giving assault units free roam of a table.

Of course, this is a huge prob in either a: cityfight, or b: Dense tables.
due to the amount of terrain it may make it hard to avoid being lashed into it.
however, you lash me into something like that and give me a cover save against oblits? much obliged

Ill drop another post in here once i get my game
Up to now ive only really played 3 lash armies (around twice each) and havent had any major problems. (ok, dante has no eternal warrior, meaning he gets ID'd by las) But meph has T5, wings, and a force weapon, which gave him enough edge to get the job done.

Other than losing dante (it happens lol) the only real problem ive had is having my chappy removed from the DC unit via las, then my DC running around like headless chickens chasing shadows for the rest of the game.
Just a case of priority against lash.
Remove the units that make it tick to remove the problems.
Lets face it, oblits can DS, meaning you may not have to weather thier fire to start with.
after that though they are too slow to avoid combat, and units can terrain hop for saves to get to them (or simply use packs)


One thing i am thinking about using though is attack bikes.
Speeders are too much of a liability with AV10 (bolter fire, ouch)
But attack bikes should give me mobile fire, and due to thier speed they can in effect hold the prince up (ok, 3 will only holdhim up 2 turns or so, but thats enough)

any quick ideas on attack bikes being of use?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, its 3:10 am lol, im off to get sleep and ill reply in the morning

Nurglitch wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Sorry, I meant they are 1.5:1 points wise.

I'm not sure what is getting lost in translation here. Do you mean that they're 3:2 model-wise? Because that's what they are if you have nine Chaos Space Marines versus six Plague Marines, which is almost 1:1 points-wise.

Yea, all Im saying is you can have one and a half CSM for every Plague. Thats all.

So back on topic, the fact that Daemon Princes with the Lash of Submission must be within 24" and line of sight to operate makes it easy to shut them down with shooting and close combat. That's why Sorcerers with Lash of Submission, Familiar, and Warptime are superior, they have the Lash, protection in a transport, and can join a unit for back-up in close combat. Give them a Plasma Pistol and stick them in a unit of Possessed and it's gravy.

Definitely. Lash Princes are far easier to counter than Lash Sorcerers.

Jumping in a little late in the process but I have to say this:

We spent about a whole page comparing 10 tacs to 5 PMs. We should have been comparing 10 tacs to 7 PMs as they are almost equal pts. wise.

Back on track... Is there any point continuing to try and change the mind of the only poster here who thinks that "lash is trash?" I think any player who has read through the CSM codex or faced a lash army will have some respect for a dual lash army. It's not the best list in the world but it's certainly effective, especially when maximized wih oblits and PMs. Even when not using the maximum lash list, lash is a great power and probably the best psychic power to put onn a DP.

I'm not poo-pooing on warptime, but in my experience lash has served me better.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Lash does work on walkers.

I think someone missed this - no, it doesn't. Walkers are vehicles, they are not affected by lash.

As far as someone saying that it's 6 worst moves in the game.....eh....not really. Lots of units on the board, all of them able to move differently etc. Lots of moves might not be optimum, but not every single bad move is game-breaking.

Then add in the fact that occasionally the psychic test is failed [it's not automatic success you know], or they roll really low on the distance moved - enough to cluster for blast weapons, but those don't auto-hit either and the distance might not be enough to get the unit out of cover. And despite movement, everyone still occasionally misjudges distance, or you flub a difficult terrain roll you couldn't avoid because they didn't move far enough, leaving your units vulnerable....

Chaos did well at 'ard boyz. It didn't OMGWTF DOMINATE at all of them, because of this power. It's a strong ability that needs to be applied correctly to be useful, and countered effectively to not be tossed around by.

Hey, at least it doesn't kill a carnifex on a 3+

I'm sorry, I've had this question for ages, what is lash?

Thanks!

Rico.

augustus5 wrote:Back on track... Is there any point continuing to try and change the mind of the only poster here who thinks that "lash is trash?"

Probably not.

I'd be interested to see how that BA vs Double Lash goes. A lot of it will depend on terrain and what the Lash player does to avoid 10 Drop Pods (which seems a bit crazy at 1500-2000 points). I still think that the lash will hamper one of the main advantages of BAs, which is their mobility. That's just theory hammer, though, as I haven't seen that matchup played. Just a warning though, if a player lashes a unit back away from his stuff and into terrain, you can bet he's not going to shoot at it... he'll let the terrain do the killing while the rest of the army shoots another unit that is still too close for comfort. That and don't forget a Daemon Prince (or two) on the charge should be more than adequate to kill an Assault Squad or Dreads. Especially if they've been lashed away from the bubbles the characters give. It'd be an interesting game to watch for sure though. I'm assuming that it's definately winnable for BA since doesn't GBF run BA competively?