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rogueeyes wrote:

Dracol wrote:

sbeasley wrote:
Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

Last line of the Perils of the Warp paragraph "Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." This is a direct reference to earlier in the paragraph "If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened...."

Logically speaking:
If psyker rolls double 1 (either {1,1} or {1,1,X}
Then psyker will still use his power even if wounded or killed

To be wounded or killed something horrible has to have happened.. which means the result of double 1s on a psychic test is equivalent to a psyker who rolls double 1 no matter the number of dice thrown.

Actually it states the result of double 1 ... not double ones within the set of dice thrown. You are adding information and interpreting this to include all possible rolls of Psychic Tests. This is specifying that even if a Perils of the Warp attack happens a Psyker who has rolled a successful leadership test still uses the power.

According to your logic here I can have a psyker with leadership 7. With Runes of Warding I roll a 1, 1 and a 6 on my 3D6 roll. I have a double 1. Therefore I succeed the test because I can use the double ones and it states in the rulebook that on double ones the power succeeds. This is in direct conflict where the total of the 3D6 must be beneath the leadership of my psyker. OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

"Actually it states the result of double 1" I refer back to the whole paragraph concerning Perils of the Warp in which it uses both "result" and "roll" to refer to the same double 1, which went back to Sbeasley asking where in RAW it states Rolls double 1. Also, this goes back to the argument that a "result" of double 1 can only be obtained on two dice. Since "roll" is also used in the same paragraph to refer to the same situation... then the argument about the double 1 "result" being only available to two dice falls flat because when you roll any number of dice, if two 1's are present within that set then you have "rolled" double 1.

As for your point about a psyker with LD 7.... if you notice I did not state what the third dice came up as (I used X to represent it). This I did to illustrate the point of the double 1 and not to have a full logical display of possible outcomes including whether the result would be successfully cast or not. In you case with {1,1,6} being thrown by a LD 7 psyker... since it does not meet the requirement for passing a psychic test in the first place... seeing if the power is still used even if the psyker is wounded or killed is irrelevant cause the power wouldn't be used even if the psyker was not wounded or killed.

I'll admit that I misread the rule and determined it to read successful. Still I do not believe you can take a subset of the dice for a leadership and apply them.

IMO PotW occur on a 12+ when the Runes are in play. They do not need to add only to the rule because it is giving you when perils of the warp occurs.

A Result can be determined to be a double but the result is a double + a D6 in all circumstances because you CANNOT ignore the third die.

The Runes of Warding state when you take Perils of the Warp attacks. The rulebook relies on 2 dice being rolled. When a third die is added the test, the rulebook for Perils of the Warp breaks. The Codex rectifies this situation when it states that Perils of the Warp occurs on a 12+ roll.

Show me where it states that you can take a subset of dice from a roll that requires multiple dice and split them apart. Melta happens on a 2D6 - these dice are not taken individually - they are a collective roll. When you shot the dice you roll are not a collective roll but are a set of dice that are rolled together signifying multiple events happening simultaneously.

My argument is based on a 2D6 leadership roll being a collective roll whereas rolling 2 sets of D6 such as for shooting are two distinct actions.

We could now have a whole different argument about whether it is even appropriate to group the "results" of a Ld. check into a set, but I am tired of this thread. Good luck with your interpretation, Rogueeyes. If I ever play you, I'll just suggest we roll off before the game to see who's way we'll use.

yeah,
5 pages and people still can't see the basic fact that you can't roll a double with 3 dice...

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
5 pages and people still can't see the basic fact that you can't roll a double with 3 dice...

Panic...

Actually, you can, but hey, don't let that stop you!

BeRzErKeR wrote:We could now have a whole different argument about whether it is even appropriate to group the "results" of a Ld. check into a set, but I am tired of this thread. Good luck with your interpretation, Rogueeyes. If I ever play you, I'll just suggest we roll off before the game to see who's way we'll use.

If we were playing I'd suggest rolling off when it happened. 4+ PotW on on set of 2 ones. Now let's continue gaming. Wait I normally play Tau ... Why does Perils of the Warp matter to me? Oh wait my deamon hunters sometimes take a psychic power ... like once a year, against hordes ...

Panic wrote:Because double 6's means go to jail in monopoly.

It does?

EDIT: Sorry about trolling, gonna add a opinion here, just to make sure I won't be confused to a real troll.

Gwar is right.

Panic wrote:yeah,
5 pages and people still can't see the basic fact that you can't roll a double with 3 dice...

Panic...

Well, that would be true if you were correct. You're not, but don't let that stop you saying things are facts when they aren't!

The result of 3 dice can include doubles, triples and singles.

Yeah,

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

If you roll 3 dice your result is {X}{X}{X}
If at a 'stretch' you count {1}{1}{X} as a 'double 1 and a {X}'
this by RAW does not activate PotW as it looks For {1}{1] or {6}{6}

{1}{1}{X} ≠ {1}{1}

Suffering a perils of the warp normally with 2D6 double 1 or 6 is a 5.556% chance.
Suffering a perils of the warp with Runes in play on 3D6 and rolling 12+ is 37.5%.
Suffering a perils of the warp with Runes in play on 3D6 and rolling 12+ or rolling {1}{1}{X} is 40.3%.

Why are you guys trying to cheat a extra 3% chance of a PotW attack?

Panic...

How is this thread still alive!!??

I have used a WHFB reference earlier in this thread and i will use it again as it is a good example:

In fantasy you suffer a miscast on the roll of double 1. If you roll 1, 3, 4, 1 that is still a miscast . You have a double 1 in there but with a 3 and a 4. Is everyone stupid!!?? Its so obvious!! A double 1 is the same as 2 ones. So for PotW you roll 1,3,1. It contains two 1s which is the same as double 1 therefore a PotW.

Also panic you say RAW looks for a {1}{1} or a {6}{6}. In the result 1,3,1 it can find a double 1, there are two ones which make up a double, and a 3. 1,3,1

Panic wrote: Why are you guys trying to cheat a extra 3% chance of a PotW attack?

Panic...

because, by raw, is entitled to us. A double 1 is a pair of ones (same for 6's), doesn't matter how many dice are rolled ... If the rule was to work as you say then Runes of warding would have to be worded differently and include the word "only" when describing rolling over 12.

Ok then all who are in favour that you suffer a PotW on a rusult of 1,1,x say "AYE!". All who disagree say "NAY!" thereby declaring themselves to be idiots.

AYE!

I think it is statistically higher to get double 1's on 3d6 than 2d6 Should be higher than 2.7% that is what it is normally.

Eldar Own wrote:How is this thread still alive!!??

I have used a WHFB reference earlier in this thread and i will use it again as it is a good example:

In fantasy you suffer a miscast on the roll of double 1. If you roll 1, 3, 4, 1 that is still a miscast . You have a double 1 in there but with a 3 and a 4. Is everyone stupid!!?? Its so obvious!! A double 1 is the same as 2 ones. So for PotW you roll 1,3,1. It contains two 1s which is the same as double 1 therefore a PotW.

Also panic you say RAW looks for a {1}{1} or a {6}{6}. In the result 1,3,1 it can find a double 1, there are two ones which make up a double, and a 3. 1,3,1

Because this is not WHFB. This is 40K. WHFB rules do not apply to 40K and 40K rules do not apply to WHFB. They are distinct game systems even though they are developed by the same developer. For that matter there are problems between one army and another and how things are done within 40K much less referencing WHFB from 40K for examples. This is why your argument does not work.

Eldar Own wrote:How is this thread still alive!!??

I have used a WHFB reference earlier in this thread and i will use it again as it is a good example:

In fantasy you suffer a miscast on the roll of double 1. If you roll 1, 3, 4, 1 that is still a miscast . You have a double 1 in there but with a 3 and a 4. Is everyone stupid!!?? Its so obvious!! A double 1 is the same as 2 ones. So for PotW you roll 1,3,1. It contains two 1s which is the same as double 1 therefore a PotW.

Also panic you say RAW looks for a {1}{1} or a {6}{6}. In the result 1,3,1 it can find a double 1, there are two ones which make up a double, and a 3. 1,3,1

WHFB is not a good example. As it is a completely different game. Might as well try and compare it to Blood Bowl or some other GW game.

rogueeyes wrote:Because this is not WHFB. This is 40K. WHFB rules do not apply to 40K and 40K rules do not apply to WHFB. They are distinct game systems even though they are developed by the same developer. For that matter there are problems between one army and another and how things are done within 40K much less referencing WHFB from 40K for examples. This is why your argument does not work.

How ever with codexs still in play like dark eldar, its clear they do work in a similar manor.

Eldar Own wrote:Ok then all who are in favour that you suffer a PotW on a rusult of 1,1,x say "AYE!". All who disagree say "NAY!" thereby declaring themselves to be idiots.

AYE!

I love it when you call those who disagree with you idiots.

I will thwart your attempt at me self declaring me as an idiot, and say something else and still get my point across

NO!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:Because this is not WHFB. This is 40K. WHFB rules do not apply to 40K and 40K rules do not apply to WHFB. They are distinct game systems even though they are developed by the same developer. For that matter there are problems between one army and another and how things are done within 40K much less referencing WHFB from 40K for examples. This is why your argument does not work.

How ever with codexs still in play like dark eldar, its clear they do work in a similar manor.

And Combat Drugs is not a Leadership Test, so it isn't relavant. Each roll on Combat Drugs is a distinct result, you combine those results to get your double because the rules say to do that.

Not so with Leadership Tests. You look at the whole result.

Psychic tests have their own way of resolving POTW - and these are different from LD checks.

yeah?
Can someone quote the DE rules exactly... From what I Remember the Dark Eldar rule is wrote with the intention of rolling as many dice as you want to risk and comparing each one against the others, looking for a double.

Combat Drugs:
Look at your results... is there a double in there?

PotW
Look at your result. is it a double 1 or double 6?

Panic...

They are trying to say that the psychic test cannot have doubles on three dice because the dice are added together - which makes it different than combat drugs.

This also makes it impossible to roll doubles on two dice, but they ignore that, it seems.

Unless I am missing something - I shall find the wording on the drugs.

---

Combat drugs has you roll a number of dice and using each di(c)e to garner a seperate effect.

Also, if doubles are rolled xxx (a wound is taken) happens.
Also, if triples are rolled yyy (the model is removed) happens.

It is interesting to note that xxx and yyy are not actually exclusionary - both can happen, wounded models can be removed as easily as unwounded ones.

Yeah?
PotW asks for a double 1 or a double 6

{1}{1}{1} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{2} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{3} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{4} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{5} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{6} ≠ {1}{1}

...

{6}{6}{1} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 13 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{2} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 14 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{3} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 15 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{4} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 16 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{5} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 17 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{6} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 18 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack

Panic...

Result of 2, double 1's

6 and half a dozen.

You do realise that {1}{1}{x} is a Double 1 and an X?

Panic wrote:Yeah?
PotW asks for a double 1 or a double 6

{1}{1}{1} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{2} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{3} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{4} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{5} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{6} ≠ {1}{1}

...

{6}{6}{1} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 13 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{2} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 14 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{3} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 15 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{4} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 16 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{5} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 17 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{6} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 18 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack

Panic...

Yeah.

kirsanth wrote:You roll 3 dice onto the table.
Does this result in a pair of 1s on the table?
It does not say "only a pair" and the power that causes three dice to be rolled does not even imply it.
Saying "Yes, but. . . " is still saying "Yes". And that is all it requires to trigger potw

@sbeasley: Please refute my fighting point so I know if I can punch you or not

kirsanth wrote:They are trying to say that the psychic test cannot have doubles on three dice because the dice are added together - which makes it different than combat drugs.

This also makes it impossible to roll doubles on two dice, but they ignore that, it seems.

Unless I am missing something - I shall find the wording on the drugs.

2D6 and 1D6 + 1D6 is not the same. The 1D6 + 1D6 is used for shooting, combat drugs, what have you. 2D6 is used for leadership tests. 3D6 is used for runes of warding. The result IS a double is not the same as the result contains a double. If the result is double ones or doubles sixes is not the same as the result contains double ones or double sixes.

Show me where you can take dice that are contained within an XD6 roll where the number of D6 are not unique instances. A leadership roll is a 2D6 roll. Shooting is {1D6} + [1D6} + ... + {1D6}. Each die is individual - as in the dice are not together. This is how you can use rending because the dice are not taking together. Melta is 2D6. You take the 2 dice as a single roll. The result is some number between 2-12. When rolling to hit each die is a 1-6 result for each shot. On a rending roll to wound you get a 1-6 result for EACH shot. Each shot that scores a 6 applies the special rules.

When rolling 3D6 for Runes of Warding it is a 3D6 roll that scores between 3-18. Anything 12 and over is defined as Perils of the Warp. The result CANNOT be double because you have 3 dice that are a set. These 3 dice cannot be broken up. When you roll a normal leadership you have 2 Dice. The result can be a double 1 or double 6 because there are 2 and only 2 dice. You cannot take a subset of this and say that I have a 1 and I also rolled another die that is a 1. you say that I have a pair of 1s. This pair is a double. There are no other dice in that 2D6 roll so the result is a double 1. This roll then applies perils fo the warp.

When rolling the 3D6 you roll 3 dice. The 3 dice roll a 1, 1, and a 3. You have a pair of 1's and a 3. The result is not a double 1. It is a double 1 and a 3. You cannot ignore the 3 because it is a part of the result. Now if you were told to roll three dice and look for a pair of ones within the result or contained within the result then you can say that perils of the warp happens. This is not the case. You are told that Perils of the Warp happens when "the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or a double 6". When I roll 3D6 I get a result of a double 1and a 3. A double is contained within the result of the set but it is not THE result of the set.

Gwar! wrote:You do realise that {1}{1}{x} is a Double 1 and an X?

yeah?
Is that what PotW asks for?
a 'double 1 and a X?'

or does PotW it ask for 'a double 1'

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah?
Is that what PotW asks for?
a 'double 1 and a X?'

or does PotW it ask for 'a double 1'

Panic...

And what did you give it?

A double one! Just because there is an x as well means nothing.

I do entirely understand your points.
I simply do not agree. FYI.


It does not say "contain" and more than runes say "only".

So I can see confusion in either case.
A moot point, as it were.

As for combat drugs, I do not neccessarily agree that there is a correlation, I was pointing out what they said so that others would understand.

@kirsanth: I'm glad you can see our view, as I see where you are getting your logic as well.

I simply do not agree as well.

At least you are civil in the matter. I appreciate that.