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As for the price discrepancy between them, Tau Pulse Rifle is S5 AP5 and R30" with a 4+ armor save. That's a lot compared to the ork weapons.

Orks also have 2 attacks and their weapons are only 1 S lower...

However the 2 models work so differently a comparison is a little difficult. Compare the Tau with Sisters or battle. Only 1 point difference but they geta 3+ save compared to a 4+ save, better weapon skill, initative, leadership and equipement and have access to faith points which are far better than marker lights...

FlingitNow wrote:

As for the price discrepancy between them, Tau Pulse Rifle is S5 AP5 and R30" with a 4+ armor save. That's a lot compared to the ork weapons.

Orks also have 2 attacks and their weapons are only 1 S lower...

Well if +1S isn't much to consider, can lasguns be S4? Fluffwise, Guardsmen are setting their lasguns to higher kill settings, which is completely plausible as multi-lasers are S6, Lascannons S9, etc... So with more power you can get more S. Fluffy. Not to mention in so many books are lasgun power settings referenced to typically being in the mid or low range to increase power-pack life. You're also still not considering the greater range and accuracy, however, or the Armor Save.

FlingitNow wrote:However the 2 models work so differently a comparison is a little difficult. Compare the Tau with Sisters or battle. Only 1 point difference but they geta 3+ save compared to a 4+ save, better weapon skill, initative, leadership and equipement...

This, I will agree upon. Comparing one unit to another is very difficult if they are so drastically different, as Orks are to Tau.

FlingitNow wrote:...and have access to faith points which are far better than marker lights...

This, however I can not. I do not know too much about Faith Points, but as I have seen them, they can be fidgety and occasionally problematic, but rarely detrimental (if ever). Markerlights, however, are always welcome, and always useful, so I can't say anyone should lament them.

Well if +1S isn't much to consider, can lasguns be S4? Fluffwise, Guardsmen are setting their lasguns to higher kill settings, which is completely plausible as multi-lasers are S6, Lascannons S9, etc... So with more power you can get more S. Fluffy. Not to mention in so many books are lasgun power settings referenced to typically being in the mid or low range to increase power-pack life. You're also still not considering the greater range and accuracy, however, or the Armor Save.

Read the rest of my post I pointed out the difficulties in comparing the 2. However as for the range shooter boyz get assault 2 18". I'm not saying +1S is nothing just pointing out the over statement of comparing it with Ork weaponry.

You could compare an Ork shoota Boy with a kroot. Kroot is a point more. Gets the same number of attacks at same S on the charge. Gets no access to Waagh, gets no armour save, gets 1 less toughness and has a 24" rapid fire compared to an 18" assault 2 (I know which I'd choose) and can include Nobz that can take powerclaws! Just better alround for a point less...

This, however I can not. I do not know too much about Faith Points, but as I have seen them, they can be fidgety and occasionally problematic, but rarely detrimental (if ever). Markerlights, however, are always welcome, and always useful, so I can't say anyone should lament them.

Marker lights are ace and I love them. They are integral to how the Tau work. Without them the BS3 would be total debilitating. However as they are BS4 as standard a markerlight wouldn't be as much use to a Sister. Granted denying cover saves is great but again Sisters can take so many flamers even that would be of limited use to them. However being able to make your 3+ save invulnerable is HUGE, making all your shots rending is again a HUGE benefit, adding to that the ability to make you strike first and almost any normal unit of sisters can stand up to most CC units points for points, whilst being absolutely lethal from range.

I know sisters players that claim that their faith points basically make their armies undefeatable and they've never lost with them. Markerlights are great but just don't have the range of uses as faith points.

I would agree that most Sisters players I know rarely lose (so why do I see so few people playing them?! Probably the models, expense, and homophobia.... not sure how that works but people are strange like that....), but the rest of the points you make are very poor. You can't compare flamers to normal shooters, because they are too situationally dependent.

Earlier points, I was making general abstractions on your comments for clarity and examples derived there from. I felt your post was a little unclear about what you meant. I'm not attacking you.

I've got the answer, one that noone would ever take. A veteran firewarrior squad as an elite choice. Improved stats, higher cost, elit slot, maybe access to a heavy weapon or 2....

but the rest of the points you make are very poor. You can't compare flamers to normal shooters, because they are too situationally dependent.

I didn't I just said that ML use would be of limited use to that army due to the number of flamers in the army in general. What other points I made were poor? In what way?

Earlier points, I was making general abstractions on your comments for clarity and examples derived there from. I felt your post was a little unclear about what you meant. I'm not attacking you.

fair enough

I've got the answer, one that noone would ever take. A veteran firewarrior squad as an elite choice. Improved stats, higher cost, elit slot, maybe access to a heavy weapon or 2....

Yeah you are right no-one would ever use that

wow, lots of responses since last i checked this thread..


here are my thoughts after reading everyone elses ideas.

FWs bs 4, same price, heck reduce their physical stats even further if you like.
-to the space marines, your already getting a +2 or +3 save anyway, 12 fire warriors w/ a +1BS at rapid fire range equates to an increase of 0.45kills on +2 save, and increase of 0.89kills on a +3. Total kills of: +2, 1.33 at BS 3, +3, 2.67 at bs3 compared to.. +2, 1.78 at BS 4, +3, 3.56 at bs4.

So please PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me how this is going to have some fantastically detrimental affect on your precious space marines? since thats what everyone thinks is the amazing race that should be the standard for measuring everything against, which other races shouldnt beat apparently. sorry im just sick and tired of space marines QQing if someone tries to point out discrepencies with very solid numerical reasoning as to why a unit is over price, needs a change etc.

rapid fire being 1/2 weapon range would be nice and easy to handle, and it would benefit more than 1 race.

Crisis suits, keep at BS 3, increase toughness to 5. Why? fluff, suit could be to carry heavier weapons and increase survivability of the wearer. By it using heavy weapons its less accurate due to the mass of said weapons moving and not having time to fully set up into a 100% stable position (hastier shot to get it off in the time required). This keeps suits from being OMFG +1 mark light just pew pewed an entire squad of those precious space marines in 1 round.

Transports/tanks do need to be cheaper, sorry but tau are not trying to close/assault YOUR GOOD AT IT, tau arent. SM transports have 1 purpose, armor shield troops getting them to the battle as fast as possible...IE turn, smoke, turn Woo you made it their job is now complete. everything else the marines have has better armor, as well as the ability to 1 turn pop smoke, and depending on the codex can be quite a bit better than Dpod for a turn...dunno bout you but id love to turn every penetrating hit into a glance with AV14.

Burst cannons should be a defensive weapon on vehicles, nuff said, sorry but when the weakest weapon a tank can carry is 2 burst cannons and cant fire them as a defensive weapon? poppy cock! now to defend myself against the inevitable space marine player, you have machine spirit, go ahead and fire all those friggen las cannons anyway. GG nuff said.

*edit*
to the people who think that only people who complain about something needing a buff are whining, its not about complaining its about pointing out basic inequalities in the statistics of the game, if i were to sit down and analyze every army (working on it..) i'm sure i personally, as well as anyone else playing, can find at least 1 item in an army that is like...wow you serious? this is dumb it needs fixed. But where it really becomes issues is, when its things people are FORCED To take in an army essentially making them waste points, when there is nothing in their codex with the ability to fill the role of said cost inefficient unit effectively, or that the price of said ineffective unit is not offset by other OVER efficient pieces of the army available in the codex.

Skinnattittar wrote:How does making them cheaper violate fluff? Well, at least any more than Space Marines violate the fluff on the table.

Skinnattitar...read the Tau fluff. They are not a numerous army on the field, and making them cheaper only makes them more numerous.

If you want to cite "fairness between armies"...well you have to start somewhere, don't you? Keep the Tau a small, elite force (in-line with the fluff), and you can set a wonderful precedent for realigning other armies to a more fluffy place.

Of course, as I have made clear...it seems that to up the model sales, GW will drop the point cost...which makes the Tau more numerous but more important it gives them an extra $25 per box of Fire Warriors.

Che-Vito wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:How does making them cheaper violate fluff? Well, at least any more than Space Marines violate the fluff on the table.

Skinnattitar...read the Tau fluff. They are not a numerous army on the field, and making them cheaper only makes them more numerous.
If you want to cite "fairness between armies"...well you have to start somewhere, don't you? Keep the Tau a small, elite force (in-line with the fluff), and you can set a wonderful precedent for realigning other armies to a more fluffy place.
Of course, as I have made clear...it seems that to up the model sales, GW will drop the point cost...which makes the Tau more numerous but more important it gives them an extra $25 per box of Fire Warriors.

Oh, but I have read the Tau fluff, and I know they are not numerous. But making them disproportionally better than they actually are to focus on one bit of fluff, while setting the rest in a dark corner and say "oh, ignore that, it's getting in the way of how I want to focus on the fluff" is probably worse in the case you have given.

If we are to design armies on their numbers, than Orks, Guard, and Tyranids should be 1pt per standard model while keeping the same stats. They are numerous to the extreme, the most numerous of all the races in the galaxy. And on the other end, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, and perhaps even Space Marines (there are an unknown number of chapters, but they are still rare-ish) would be 100pts per standard model as there are so few of them by comparison, but they would still have their relatively current stat lines.

and perhaps even Space Marines (there are an unknown number of chapters, but they are still rare-ish) would be 100pts per standard model as there are so few of them by comparison, but they would still have their relatively current stat lines.

Nah you go by fluff a Space Marine should be able to hold his own against 40-50 Guard or Orks. A Squad of 10 should be able to releave an entire Guard regiment. They should be miles and miles harder and should be about 200 points each. By fluff.

Firewarriors should be cheaper. They should have access to wargear that allows the squad to increase it's BS. Having the FW have a higher BS than the suits is entirely counter logical to me.

They should all be bonded (it should apply to the unit) and come with a Sha'ui as standard. Kroot need to be able to take some sort of powerfist or atleast a power weapon. Hounds should get rending.

Whilst I feel battlesuits should be able to pay a certain amount for a standard fit type and then be able to pick from say 3 options AFTER the opponent, mission and deployment are known. To represent how they pick their weapons for the job at hand. However the price of this standard fit owuld be more expensive than the individual points required to make any of the options. For instance 60 points gets you the choice of Brightwind, Deathrain or TL Fusion Blasters and TA (each option 53-58 points).

I also think suits should get a toughness increase to 5, they are just too fragile at the moment.

FW already have an option to increase their BS. They are called Markerlights. That is something I'm not sure Tau players are getting. You HAVE something SUPER unique ONLY to Tau that can increase BS and decrease Cover Saves! You have weapons that ignore Cover Saves and can fire without line of sight! Those are useful things! Increasing FW BS and then by default demanding 'Suit BS being increased isn't entirely fair or fluffy.

I will agree that suits seem to be a bit papery, on occassion. If you get rid of their shoot and scoot, I would agree, increase their Toughness to 5 or even make them a skimmer-walker (a unique attribute, I think) with AV10. But not both. Shoot and scoot is your defense for low Toughness, and it works extremely well, better than T10 on many occasions because you can't even attack them if you can't see them!

Kroot could get a few power weapons for their leader type characters, I don't see why not, maybe not power-fists though. Rending for their hounds isn't a terrible idea, but I would like to hear more about their stats. Rotating weapons rack is a bad one, though. Fluffy, in some ways I suppose, but it would be completely out of norm and too foreign to be fair (I can not recall anything else like it in 40k).

Skinnattittar wrote:FW already have an option to increase their BS. They are called Markerlights. That is something I'm not sure Tau players are getting. You HAVE something SUPER unique ONLY to Tau that can increase BS and decrease Cover Saves! You have weapons that ignore Cover Saves and can fire without line of sight! Those are useful things! Increasing FW BS and then by default demanding 'Suit BS being increased isn't entirely fair or fluffy.

I think people want an option, like other armies, that can be purchased and works all the time instead of rolling to hit with the markerlight and then hoping your markerlight producing squad doesn't get creamed.

Skinnattittar wrote:I will agree that suits seem to be a bit papery, on occassion. If you get rid of their shoot and scoot, I would agree, increase their Toughness to 5 or even make them a skimmer-walker (a unique attribute, I think) with AV10. But not both. Shoot and scoot is your defense for low Toughness, and it works extremely well, better than T10 on many occasions because you can't even attack them if you can't see them!

Agreed; however, I could see broadsides being treated as walkers with stats similar to dreadnoughts.

Skinnattittar wrote:Kroot could get a few power weapons for their leader type characters, I don't see why not, maybe not power-fists though. Rending for their hounds isn't a terrible idea, but I would like to hear more about their stats. Rotating weapons rack is a bad one, though. Fluffy, in some ways I suppose, but it would be completely out of norm and too foreign to be fair (I can not recall anything else like it in 40k).

Agreed;however, I don't see what the aversion to power fists is. The fluff is there, either from mercenary work or conquest on the battlefield; if kroot don't have any problem eating their enemies, I don't see them thinking twice about taking their weapons. They do need some sort of can-opener weapon that would make them suck less in close combat, that is their job after all.

I agree that the idea of being able to switch weapon loadouts before a battle is a) too cumbersome and b) useless. Seriously, would it affect how many fireknife or deathrain suits you take if you know your enemy before the battle? Not usually.

b) useless. Seriously, would it affect how many fireknife or deathrain suits you take if you know your enemy before the battle? Not usually.

Yes I generally don't take deathrains if up against marines. Where as I always like to take them against anyone else. The weapons fits could see a blacksun filter included for DoW. It wouldn't be that cumbersome except from a miniature point of view either forcing you to bring lots of different suits or use magnets. But I think it would be a nice bit of lfuff that would help with the Tau's main weakness.

As an army they do well when equiped for the job but do poorly when equiped for all comers. The fireknife is a perfect example it is very expensive and has no synergy. But is basically manditory if you don't know your opponent before had as it can deal with most types of opponent (particularly SM).

Being a good alrounder makes you not great at anyone thing. With shooting inparticular using the right weapon for the right job is so important as you get so few chances to kill compared to an assault. The only other pure shooting force is the IG and the Leman Russ 's battlecannon is great against anything except terminators. It instant kills most 2 wound stuff, gives no armour saves to all but 2+ guys and it can have other weapons too. The demolisher is shorter range but is again lethal against anything.

The Tau really don't have any good against all comers weapons and are far worse in assault than IG.

FlingitNow wrote:

b) useless. Seriously, would it affect how many fireknife or deathrain suits you take if you know your enemy before the battle? Not usually.

Yes I generally don't take deathrains if up against marines. Where as I always like to take them against anyone else. The weapons fits could see a blacksun filter included for DoW. It wouldn't be that cumbersome except from a miniature point of view either forcing you to bring lots of different suits or use magnets. But I think it would be a nice bit of lfuff that would help with the Tau's main weakness.

As an army they do well when equiped for the job but do poorly when equiped for all comers. The fireknife is a perfect example it is very expensive and has no synergy. But is basically manditory if you don't know your opponent before had as it can deal with most types of opponent (particularly SM).

Being a good alrounder makes you not great at anyone thing. With shooting inparticular using the right weapon for the right job is so important as you get so few chances to kill compared to an assault. The only other pure shooting force is the IG and the Leman Russ 's battlecannon is great against anything except terminators. It instant kills most 2 wound stuff, gives no armour saves to all but 2+ guys and it can have other weapons too. The demolisher is shorter range but is again lethal against anything.

The Tau really don't have any good against all comers weapons and are far worse in assault than IG.

If I play and have a fireknife team and no marines to shoot, I deepstrike them and pop tanks from rear armor or harrass the enemy from the flanks or rear with them. I always take deathrain, even vs. marines, you don't get the insta-kill but your opponent still has to roll and they generate mass of fire.

I love the tau as an army but the thing I hate most is that the entire army must focus fire on individual units when facing marines or they'll get in close combat and mulch the firewarriors. As far as balance of the game goes, I've always felt that the points should fit the production. Point for point, with average dice rolling, a basic troop choice should be able to take out it's counterpart in any army. Instead we get armies, like chaos marines, that have so many special rules floating around you have to own the codex to play against them (Icon this, demon prince that, warp-power this, mark of whatzit that). I guess that's a whole other rant; my point here is that the game is already weighty enough without adding yet another special rule. Tau get markerlights and trickedout jumpsuits, we have to make them work within the context of normal gameplay and it can be done without creating a special rules codex that would be bigger than the rules book.

Yeah fireknives are great against anything. Deathrains are pretty useless against MEQ they don't generate that much fire and won't kill many marines. You'd be better off with fire warriors or even stealth suites (certainly XV9s they look awesome).

The Tau wouldn't need to be tricked out with too many special rules. Just adjust a few things and give them a few additions. I think the multi-use suit option is a good idea that fits the fluff and gives the Tau player some tactical options whilst not requiring the opponent to learn anything new as the weapon fits would be entirely standard.

Look at the SM codex that actually has almost as many rules as the Rulebook the Tau codex wouldn't have to be near that big. But they do desperately need more options because the Tau army is almost becoming standard these days. Some options need fixing (FW and Vespid why oh why would you ever take a Vespid squad, Stealth suits are also UP and of little use). Their special characters need redesigning from the ground up to actually fit in the with army.

And DPs need to go up in points.

I pop rhinos and dreadnaughts (jump behind and shoot) with my deathrains and then harrass weaker units. I took out an entire unit of plague marines with a deathrain unit that had gun drones; jumped in, unleashed a hailstorm, jumped out. Volume of fire does not suck, 6 tl missile pod shots and then lots of pulse carbine shots, generated something like 9 wounds in a unit of 7 and followed up with a rapid firing FW squad that generated another 8. Looked up at my friend/opponent and said "start rolling".

It sucks that it took all that combined firepower, 21 models, to kill 7; that's how broken chaos is.

Against plague marines on average 9 wounds will kill one and half models. his rolling must have sucked for you to do that much damage with that little fire power.

On average from 17 wounds you should kill just under 3 plague marines...

agnosto wrote: I think people want an option, like other armies, that can be purchased and works all the time instead of rolling to hit with the markerlight and then hoping your markerlight producing squad doesn't get creamed...

What other armies are like this? Guard have Veterans, but that's not really a purchasable piece of wargear. It is an entirely other Troops choice that works totally different (not on a squad level, but as a Troops choice) than normal Guard squads. Space Marines all have BS4, Eldar have a similar system to Guard, Orks have totally different units that are mostly BS2.... I'm just not seeing what you're saying they don't have that other do? I would suggest squad level, single shot, unit specific (only work for the armed unit) Marker Drones for say 20-25pts, good upgrade for large units, not so much for smaller units. Should only be able to apply to the assigned unit, get rid of Pathfinders with Marklights, have them act as forward snipers with pinning weapons, be cheaper. Have vehicles exchange a nose drone for a Marker Drone, again, unit specific.

agnosto wrote:...I could see broadsides being treated as walkers with stats similar to dreadnoughts...

Agreed.

agnosto wrote:...I don't see what the aversion to power fists is. The fluff is there, either from mercenary work or conquest on the battlefield; if kroot don't have any problem eating their enemies, I don't see them thinking twice about taking their weapons. They do need some sort of can-opener weapon that would make them suck less in close combat, that is their job after all.

Well, I'm not a fan of power-fists in general, they're far too common in my opinion. A fluff reason would be that Kroot physiology is extremely different from other races, and I don't think a human's power fist would readily fit onto a Kroot's hand. For "can opening," by that I think you mean tank busting? Melta bombs. Anyone can pick them up and use them, so they could get them of fallen opponents, and they are quite effective.

agnosto wrote:I agree that the idea of being able to switch weapon loadouts before a battle is a) too cumbersome and b) useless. Seriously, would it affect how many fireknife or deathrain suits you take if you know your enemy before the battle? Not usually.

I think the complaint is mostly for tournament lists. But I think it is a poor solution and pretty underhanded. An opponent could never predict what you are going to bring to table even if they watch you play, which would be a major advantage. Yes, they could predict what options you would have, but until the last minute they wouldn't know, while the Tau player would know what everyone else has. That is why I feel it is too foreign and unfair, nobody else has anything like it.

I hear a lot of complaining about Tau, but I still see them win three out of eight time they play, which is only slightly below what they should (two evenly matched opponents should have a fifty-fifty share of winning and losing). Tau have troubles, but they aren't great. Guard came out and blew everyone away but already they're making their way back to fifty-fifty and no new codices have come out (except Space Wolves, but they are essentially a new army). Tweak Tau points costs is the biggest thing that needs doing, and get rid of less savory weapons options and consider making new units (like Kamikaze Drones!).

I think the complaint is mostly for tournament lists. But I think it is a poor solution and pretty underhanded. An opponent could never predict what you are going to bring to table even if they watch you play, which would be a major advantage. Yes, they could predict what options you would have, but until the last minute they wouldn't know, while the Tau player would know what everyone else has. That is why I feel it is too foreign and unfair, nobody else has anything like it.

Hardly a major advantage. It would give the Tau player some options and yes it would mean predicting his list wouldn't be possible. But you would know largely what he had. As I said the multi-choice build would be more expensive than picking any of the individual options so he'd be essentially always playing you a few points down, but would have the advantage of tailoring and you not knowing exactly what he had. I think it would be pretty balanced and give both players some interesting challenges. Also taking away the one major problem Tau have in tournaments. As is they need an exceptional player or a lot of luck to stand a chance in tournaments...

They also need more variety in their list and some options need improving because we just don't see them. Devilfish should be 60 points. Vespid should be assault 2. Stealthsuits should be allowed to take any number of fusion blasters and be cheaper about 25 points each is fine. Their battlesuit systems need to be cheaper than the Crisis counter parts (except Drones of course). And they need a few more long range options for the crisis suits preferably something with AP3 or a blast weapon.

The XV9s look good and they need that and probably the heavy drones to be introduced as at the moment they are just light on options. Tau armies are largely identikit at the moment with only one template build for success.

Skinnattittar wrote:What other armies are like this? Guard have Veterans, but that's not really a purchasable piece of wargear. It is an entirely other Troops choice that works totally different (not on a squad level, but as a Troops choice) than normal Guard squads. Space Marines all have BS4, Eldar have a similar system to Guard, Orks have totally different units that are mostly BS2.... I'm just not seeing what you're saying they don't have that other do? I would suggest squad level, single shot, unit specific (only work for the armed unit) Marker Drones for say 20-25pts, good upgrade for large units, not so much for smaller units. Should only be able to apply to the assigned unit, get rid of Pathfinders with Marklights, have them act as forward snipers with pinning weapons, be cheaper. Have vehicles exchange a nose drone for a Marker Drone, again, unit specific.

Well a grot is a better shooter than an ork and can be taken en mass; a "veteran" firewarrior squad would be nice. Agreed, Marines don't need anything. Guard have orders which are nearly guaranteed to work every time... etc. Admittedly a weak argument but I'm not pushing for the entire army to jump up in BS without doing away with markerlights. I would be happy with a 0-1 veteran squad with BS 4 that has an appropriate points cost, something like the Ethereal bodyguard but without the worthless ethereal...

I would be happy to do away with markerlights all together and come up with something similar to imperial guard orders; what tau player wouldn't like something like "take it down!" or "first rank fire, second rank fire!"? Unit specifc markerlights would mess with crisis squads. it'd just be easier to do away with the system completely and start from scratch; it's cute but too random in the working department.

Skinnattittar wrote:Well, I'm not a fan of power-fists in general, they're far too common in my opinion. A fluff reason would be that Kroot physiology is extremely different from other races, and I don't think a human's power fist would readily fit onto a Kroot's hand. For "can opening," by that I think you mean tank busting? Melta bombs. Anyone can pick them up and use them, so they could get them of fallen opponents, and they are quite effective.

I was actually referring to opening power armor; Tau have enough anti-tank, what they lack is some way to be effective in close combat. My argument is that why have kroot at all if they're no good at what they were created to do, be the Tau fist in the face, to do that they need access, even if it's for shapers only, to weapons that void armor saves.

agnosto wrote:Tweak Tau points costs is the biggest thing that needs doing, and get rid of less savory weapons options and consider making new units (like Kamikaze Drones!).

I agree completely, suicidal drones for everybody!

Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work.

Thank you, try again.


Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon

I would be happy to do away with markerlights all together

They are essential to how the Tau work, take them away and Tau stop being Tau.

Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work.

Sad but true.

Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon

Even with a fist or powerweapon Kroot wouldn't be that scary in CC, they are relatively expensive and die very quickly.

But yes I think we need a few more long range options on the Crisis suits amongst other things mentioned above.

TopC wrote:Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work.

Thank you, try again.


Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon

Then make them more mobile. Heck, marines are more mobile than tau right now with more transport options and homing beacons, etc.

Maybe a rule that allows firewarriors to jump out of a devilfish, shoot, and pile back in; make it where they lose rapid fire that turn or something.

My point here is that for a strictly pew pew army, they don't do it very well so either give them more dakka, something that slows down all the close assault armies (since pinning is worthless), or a close combat option. That's the only way they'll ever be competitive in 5th edition.

agnosto wrote:

TopC wrote:Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work.

Thank you, try again.


Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon

Then make them more mobile. Heck, marines are more mobile than tau right now with more transport options and homing beacons, etc.

Maybe a rule that allows firewarriors to jump out of a devilfish, shoot, and pile back in; make it where they lose rapid fire that turn or something.

My point here is that for a strictly pew pew army, they don't do it very well so either give them more dakka, something that slows down all the close assault armies (since pinning is worthless), or a close combat option. That's the only way they'll ever be competitive in 5th edition.

first sorry if i was rude i was trying to be sarcastic read it again just now and it seemed kinda mean.

I Wouldn't mind a point reduction on a few things, and or a single stat buff here and there. In general I think this would justify some things point costs, and if they dont get a little help, a couple point reduction to make them on par with other peoples units would be completely acceptable.

Cheaper would mean more dakka
not cheaper but a little buff would mean our dakka sticks around a little better
Maybe a actual post in a codex that gun drones off ships dont count as KP or FAQ, not just a response from GW saying they dont
Perhaps changing it so that burst cannons count as defensive weapons for tau since it is their weakest weapon system after all
I'll leave the rest to more experienced minds for now

TopC wrote:first sorry if i was rude i was trying to be sarcastic read it again just now and it seemed kinda mean.

I Wouldn't mind a point reduction on a few things, and or a single stat buff here and there. In general I think this would justify some things point costs, and if they dont get a little help, a couple point reduction to make them on par with other peoples units would be completely acceptable.

Cheaper would mean more dakka
not cheaper but a little buff would mean our dakka sticks around a little better
Maybe a actual post in a codex that gun drones off ships dont count as KP or FAQ, not just a response from GW saying they dont
Perhaps changing it so that burst cannons count as defensive weapons for tau since it is their weakest weapon system after all
I'll leave the rest to more experienced minds for now

We can all agree that they need some tweaking; the problem is that there are so many ways to do it.
Point reduction's probably not the best way to go since they aren't a numerous race so there shouldn't be as many of them on the field as orks or guard. That leaves somthing that will help them stay alive in a rules edition that seems determined to become "Warhammer 40k, Fantasy Battles Part 2" with a focus on melee over shooting. True line of sight, cover saves out the whazoo, and that darned focus on melee makes the universe a very unfriendly place for tau.

So, how do you tweak them? Here are a few ideas:
a) defensive grenades stop assaults for one turn per game.
b) template minefields produce difficult terrain effects. Marine scouts can throw down mines, why not tau?
c) make markerlights cheaper and every tau, not kroot, unit able to get them. Barring this, do away with markerlights and institute something similar to guard "orders" that produces effects that benefit the unit; the codex mentions the different hunter philosophies, make use of that.
d) extend the range of crisis suit weapons a bit so that they may stay out of melee easier; again, this fits fluff as kill from afar shooty people. 1" to 2" for each weapon would be huge; especially burst cannons.
e) more template weapons. personally, I could see the Ion cannon able to shoot small templates like the executioner.
f) close combat weapons for kroot that are similar to power weapons; even if only shapers have access, it'd be an improvement. As is right now, they lose to every combat unit in the game unless you're really lucky. Make kroot weapons "assault 1 or 2". Hounds and krootox need to have rending attacks.
g) more, varied units. Elite firewarrior teams would be cool; they cost more but have BS4 and access to heavy weapons, similar to space marine tac squads (1 heavy for every 5); it would be nice to field more than crisis suits as elites... I love the idea of suicidal drones but that probably sounds kind of Orky.
h) increase rapid fire range for FWs to 15". (thanks kilkrazy)

I guess I would like to see us, as players, able to get more use out of the units we already have, not reduced points to field more faulty troop choices.

Changing the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches would make Fire Warriors more mobile, because it would let them move to a point outside most enemies' one move charge range and still deal serious damage.

It is a very simple rule, intuitive, easy to restrict to Tau alone. It would give Tau a unique shooty capability very resonant of their fluff, and it would not overpowering.

Kilkrazy wrote:Changing the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches would make Fire Warriors more mobile, because it would let them move to a point outside most enemies' one move charge range and still deal serious damage.

It is a very simple rule, intuitive, easy to restrict to Tau alone. It would give Tau a unique shooty capability very resonant of their fluff, and it would not overpowering.

Yep, forgot that one; agree wholeheartedly.

Killkrazy

Yeah that would help. Though I still maintain they should make it 18" and make Carbines Assault 2.

Maybe a rule to allow the Devilfish to move 18" in a turn?

Vespids are mobile making them assault 2 would stop them from being entirely pointless and again "fix" a unit no one would otherwise take if they intend to win (like the Carbine Firewarriors fixed above). And on agnostics:

a) How about it gives you an Iniative test, testing on the highest Iniative in the squad (Ethereals would have I3-4) and you auto fall back but avoid combat. Would also give you a reason to take Ethereals, who need a general overhaul.

b) OK but not convinced it is particularly Tau or useful.

c) First part yes. Keep everything the same but make Marker drones 20 points. Second part a resounding no why take away the coolest thing about the Tau?

d) Agreed or give us more longer range options. Plasma and Missile launcher are the only remotely longe range options we have and the plasma is only average range...

e) Might be OP but yes in theory (maybe give the seeker missiles a blast option and allow the Skyray to fire as many on one ML hit as it likes, again fixing a unit that otherwise you'd never take).

f) 100% yes!

g) Yeah that would be cool still can't see anyone not taking Crisis suites though. Stealths need to be cheaper 20-25 points each and/or able to take any number of fusion blasters then they'd be a genuinely good option.

h) see above

I think these measures would see tau players have far more viable options and mean that Tau armies wouldn't be so identikit as they are at the moment. Give us a few more units sure but fix the multitude of units added fo rthe last codex that aren't any good (or the options that have never been good like Stealth suits and Carbines).

Yes, the downside of pulse rifles RF15 is that it makes carbines relatively worthless.

I haven't thought of a way round that yet. Making carbines Assault 2 could work. It would certainly make me think carefully about which gun to equip on my FWs.

Although, to look at it another way, we are talking about doubling the firepower of the FW with carbine. It sounds a big step.

Yes, the downside of pulse rifles RF15 is that it makes carbines relatively worthless.

I haven't thought of a way round that yet. Making carbines Assault 2 could work. It would certainly make me think carefully about which gun to equip on my FWs.

Although, to look at it another way, we are talking about doubling the firepower of the FW with carbine. It sounds a big step.

Yes it is a big step and you'd have to extend the rapid fire range of the Rifle to 18" too (or they would become pointless) or have both at 15".

But given that no one EVER uses the Carbines will this really improve the army hugely? I don't think so just improve a particular option so that it is viable. If you think that would OP them then the other option is make them both 15". I think at a certain range you should get 2 shots with either the Carbine or Rifle. You then have the option of a one shot longer range or the ability to pin. Neither choice effecting your core fire power if you see what I mean? So both are viable.

It would make everyone think differently about carbines and they would appear in many armies. Some would still stick with the rifles whilst others yet might go totally over to carbines. Gun drones would have to increase in price though. Again bringing variety into the options people actually select for Tau.

You have to admit you see a Tau tournament army and you know exactly what you are facing without having to see any models. The only question is all mech or Kroot...