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@12thRonin: Where did I say that - I said YOU have dominion over YOUR OWN game. Period. If you want to play, it is up to you to make sure our game is on the level. the Judges are there as a resource and to arbitrate issues as they arise. Use them. Comparing 40K to competitive sports is folly. Always will be.

@Grot 6: There is no question that this individual needs to have his play history examined and there very well could be an issue here. It is something we take seriously and are looking into. That said, I do not agree with the way BoK has gone about this. It is drama for drama's sake and is absolutely something that should have been dealt with at the convention by any of the numerous people claiming they had an issue with his playstyle or list. BoK is looking for drama, knows very where to find it and knows how to fan it. It will eventually backfire and cause undue irrevocable damage to someone's hobby life and the community in general. This is not the answer to dealing with cheating - intentional or not.

Grot 6 wrote:

tastytaste wrote:-Dakkaites

After much work I finally finished my report on cheating during a top table match at Adepticon. I want to let you the community decide on does this behavior rise to the level of cheating or is it just a case of sour apples? Check out my blog for everything you need to know.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=3088

PS: Blackmoor was standing on table away so I want to know what his perspective is on this whole thing.

1. Your camera angle was craptastic, you have no right putting a guy out on front street with that bullgak film with only YOUR supposed side of it.

2. The fallback was gaked to begin with, the guy on the red side of the table looked like a total tool bag measuring his inches in 3 inch intervals. WTF was that about? Along side the gak camera angle, we see a guy running the wrong way in fallback.

3. YOU put it out that they are cheating, then put it up on a website. SO.... What did the judges say about it AT THE TIME OF THE GAME?

4. Missle launchers... hmmm so was it 3 or 4? Who called him on it the first time it happened? WHY then would it have to happen a second time without calling him out and calling a judge?

5. Adepticon STILL brings the pogues out to play. THAT film you showed was an example of a no bull CHERRY argument. Anyone worth thier salt already KNOWS that that was a BS argument, and that it went on for more then a minute tells me that someone or TWO needs to go back and read thier rule books and codex's.

6. The fact that you would bring this to Dakka, instead of leaving it on your own site, where you have alrady crucified this guy in public record doesn't say much for you, either.

From what we see here, YOU have the guy already pegged, and are egging on a nonsituation that should have been dealt with IN HOUSE AT THE GAME.

Instead of calling someone out for cheating and "Letting you decide", why don't you come to the table with facts, instead of accusations?


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bluedevil27 wrote:Can't someone just refuse to sign the scoring sheet afterwards if the other player constantly cheated the whole time? I don't think its enough to just knock the guy on sportsmanship. If the entire game, your opponent was trying to cheat (and you called him out for everything that you saw, but wasn't able to catch everything) is it legit to not sign the scoring sheet and bring up the problem with the TO? (This is regardless if you won/lost/drew)

Yes. and then you take the issue up with the judges, officiating the tourney. It's not hard.

If you want to cheat in a tourny of thie caliber, you quickly get the picture that you seriously messed your trousers.

I think if you took the time to read the post and not just the video it would explain a few things As well as the video was what it was because my normal video means failed so I went to a back up. I put it up on Dakka because it is the only forum I follow as it is also a place where some MODs and players attended the event so I thought they could bring some perspective since they were there.


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Matthias wrote:@12thRonin: Where did I say that - I said YOU have dominion over YOUR OWN game. Period. If you want to play, it is up to you to make sure our game is on the level. the Judges are there as a resource and to arbitrate issues as they arise. Use them. Comparing 40K to competitive sports is folly. Always will be.

@Grot 6: There is no question that this individual needs to have his play history examined and there very well could be an issue here. It is something we take seriously and are looking into. That said, I do not agree with the way BoK has gone about this. It is drama for drama's sake and is absolutely something that should have been dealt with at the convention by any of the numerous people claiming they had an issue with his playstyle or list. BoK is looking for drama, knows very where to find it and knows how to fan it. It will eventually backfire and cause undue irrevocable damage to someone's hobby life and the community in general. This is not the answer to dealing with cheating - intentional or not.

I think cheating is a serious problem and people need to know their is consequences. This is not about drama this is about making a better tournament scene. Doing things behind closed doors does not really teach them a lesson as they go to another place and pull the same stuff. My hope was by putting it up we could find comfirm any past behavior and some have posted about him cheating last year by doing the exact same thing.

tastytaste wrote:I think cheating is a serious problem and people need to know their is consequences. This is not about drama this is about making a better tournament scene. Doing things behind closed doors does not really teach them a lesson as they go to another place and pull the same stuff. My hope was by putting it up we could find comfirm any past behavior and some have posted about him cheating last year by doing the exact same thing.

And we don't take it seriously? We have been running this event for 8 straight years and smaller events long before that. Our staff has run/staffed various GW GT's and Games Day event over the past decade. We have seen everything under the sun and are not in denial about the toxic nature of tournaments/competitions. No one wants to deal with this behind closed doors. Cheaters will always be exposed, DQ'd, zeroed for the round...but it needs to be brought to us.

They way you present it 100% self-serving and meant to manufacture drama. Why wasn't a single judge during the event spoken to? Why was the community even baited with this before you confirmed anything? Why didn't you contact us and inquire about our history with said person? There are many more respectable paths you could have traveled any of which would earn you 100% of my support. You attended our convention with no intention of playing in any events. You came to film games and you knew exactly what you would find if you looked hard enough. Mission accomplished! Next event!

I have to agree with Matthias. I didn't attend the event but that was mostly due to finances. The way BoK is presenting it does nothing but hurt the community. Especially since he didn't contact the staff running the event either there or after he got home. He just posted it to boost his blog hit count. Which I actually refused to go look at based on the way it was handled.

P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

kronk wrote:

warboss wrote: public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

I'm being filmed against my wishes and my right to privacy.

I complain and put a stop to it.

I get penalized. I'm the jerk.

So if someone steals my land raider off the table and runs off with it and I chase him down, deal with security, get my stuff back, and return to the table, here is warboss's reaction:

"tsk, tsk. You wasted time away from the table, so you get a 0 in sportsmanship for stalling."


Wow.


Edit: I have no problem being filmed at an event, mind you, but I respect other's rights to privacy. If people are watching, they better keep their damned mouths shut, though.

I'm sorry but you do not have the right to privacy in this situation. You are in a public place (and no I do not mean public property) and have no expectation to privacy and furthermore filming your game is not necessarily filming you. It would only be improper to film the event if the hotel management or the people running the event had rules against that. Remember you might be at a hotel but you are not in your room. What expectation of privacy is there in a room with several hundred people?

I have to agree with Matthais and what he said. You should have immediately contacted a judge(s) when you saw this occurring. The judges at Adepticon are very knowledgable and fair. I'm sure if you had talked to them this could have been resolved immediately.

G

Hulksmash wrote:I have to agree with Matthias. I didn't attend the event but that was mostly due to finances. The way BoK is presenting it does nothing but hurt the community. Especially since he didn't contact the staff running the event either there or after he got home. He just posted it to boost his blog hit count. Which I actually refused to go look at based on the way it was handled.

Well the truth is I did not know of the cheating till after the game and people told me to check the video so I did. Adepticon has a copy of it. Members of the staff knew of a problem a few hours after the event. My mistake was building the hype, I should of waited before I opened my mouth till I had compiled all the evidence.

How does exposing cheating hurt the community?

I said the manner in which you presented the cheating hurts the community. Not exposing cheating in and of itself.

If you'd talked to the Adepticon people first and worked with them and then penned an article that exposed the cheating while at the same time showing how it was handled as well as the end result. You could have gotten your "scoop" while not making one of the largest events in the US (which makes it an ambassador of our hobby whether we like it or not) look bad.

It reflects poorly on you as well because of the way you presented it. I used to check out your site from time to time but based on how this was handled I won't be. Personally as a TO I'd deny you entry to my event since you only seem excited to report the negatives.

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

tastytaste wrote:Well the truth is I did not know of the cheating till after the game and people told me to check the video so I did. Adepticon has a copy of it. Members of the staff knew of a problem a few hours after the event. My mistake was building the hype, I should of waited before I opened my mouth till I had compiled all the evidence.

How does exposing cheating hurt the community?

This is untrue. Hank had dinner with Larry and JWolf after the event. They mentioned they thought there was shadiness going on in the final game and they might have video proof. Hank told them to give him a copy of the video and we would look at it. We never got that video. The next we heard of it was on your blog. We were never given the chance to review the evidence or act on it.

Exposing cheating does not hurt the community. Manufacturing drama and playing sheriff does.

tastytaste wrote:
How does exposing cheating hurt the community?

I don't think I would say it hurt the community. However, I think some people could look at this situation you muckraked up and say, "See that's why I don't go to tournaments, because everyone cheats". And we have seen this very sentiment in this thread.

My personal problem with this whole thing is that it wasn't really that blatant. I mean yes their were some problems, and I think the guy should be disqualified for using the extra model. But the sensationalized "Geraldo and Al capones vault" nature of this thing kind of turns me off.

I mean it doesn't even rise to the level of the bloodcrushers on wrong sized bases cheat that happened at ard' boys a few years back.

GG

i gotta say...in a tournament event like adepticon, expect spectators and video/pictures. it happens, deal. if you dont want to be filmed, dont go. however i do agree that the second spectators start providing advise or questions or comments on the game at hand its time for them to shut it, and/or leave.

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

I don't want Adepticon hurt by this, they work very hard putting on a event like this and they are all great people. I wouldn't want anything on them to reflect bad by any means. To me in the Grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. Lets move on and promote the hobby and bring more people there. Adepticon is one of the best events and I don't want something like this to bring it down one bit.

Frazzled wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

And how are you going to pay your lawyer?

Really stop being ridiculous. You are starting to sound like a crazy person. Unless you have actually brought a lawsuit against someone for this just drop it. He wouldn't even have to pay a lawyer because a case so obviously without merit would be thrown out by the judge.

Hulksmash wrote:I said the manner in which you presented the cheating hurts the community. Not exposing cheating in and of itself.

If you'd talked to the Adepticon people first and worked with them and then penned an article that exposed the cheating while at the same time showing how it was handled as well as the end result. You could have gotten your "scoop" while not making one of the largest events in the US (which makes it an ambassador of our hobby whether we like it or not) look bad.

It reflects poorly on you as well because of the way you presented it. I used to check out your site from time to time but based on how this was handled I won't be. Personally as a TO I'd deny you entry to my event since you only seem excited to report the negatives.

Since you did not even look at my article how do you know what I said? No where in my article do I talk any smack about Adepticon. I said that Nick should of called over a TO. It was not Adepticon's fault it was player policing problem. Also did you see any of my oh 4 posts before about Adepticon with video highlighting everything positive? Or have you seen any of my other GT coverage where I promote events before and after they are over?

Or is this just an attempt to get this thread locked?

I'd just like to put my two cents in on the issue of video taping with or without permission.

As a professional photographer I have some knowledge of this issue.

To video/photograph someone without their permission (in the US), no matter where it is, public/private property, public/private venue, it doesn't matter, you can open yourself up to all kinds of legal actions.

You can be sued. Even if you receive a verbal agreement to video/photo someone you can still be sued. The only way to make sure you're ironclad is to have the person sign a model release, stating explicitly what the video/photo is going to be used for.

I know about this because as I said, I am a professional photographer and have been sued several times for this very reason.

When I was in collage I photographed a girlfriend of mine nude. Her face wasn't in the photographs and they were only for art purposes. She posed for the photographs, so obviously she was ok with it. Later after collage, and after we broke up, I ended up selling prints of the nudes. When she found out, just to spite me, she sued me. I had to, by court order, give her all the money i recieved for selling said prints, and destroy the negatives.

Needless to say I have gotten model releases since.

Also legal issues aside, its just downright rude to videotape someone without their permission.

Daggermaw wrote:I'd just like to put my two cents in on the issue of video taping with or without permission.

As a professional photographer I have some knowledge of this issue.

To video/photograph someone without their permission (in the US), no matter where it is, public/private property, public/private venue, it doesn't matter, you can open yourself up to all kinds of legal actions.

You can be sued. Even if you receive a verbal agreement to video/photo someone you can still be sued. The only way to make sure you're ironclad is to have the person sign a model release, stating explicitly what the video/photo is going to be used for.

I know about this because as I said, I am a professional photographer and have been sued several times for this very reason.

When I was in collage I photographed a girlfriend of mine nude. Her face wasn't in the photographs and they were only for art purposes. She posed for the photographs, so obviously she was ok with it. Later after collage, and after we broke up, I ended up selling prints of the nudes. When she found out just to spit me she sued me. I had to, by court order, give her all the money i recieved for selling said prints, and destroy the negatives.

Needless to say I have gotten model releases since.

Also legal issues aside, its just downright rude to videotape someone without their permission.

I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

As one of the Tournament Organizers for the Gladiator and a long-time Dakka-ite, I feel like I should add something to this thread.

#1 - As a tournament organizer, it's not my job to spot cheating. Neither is it the job of my staff. All of us have one mission: to make sure that the event runs as smoothly as possible and that the players have as good a time as possible. We simply don't have the staff to keep an eye on 136 players all day long, and to even try would be ludicrous.

#2 - Having said that, we take cheating and other forms of toolery very seriously. We're all aware that as the largest and most well-known fan-run convention, its a given that what happens is going to be under the microscope. Hey, we're a hobby of people who take figs about the size of our thumbs and paint details the size of pinheads. Some slight amount of OCD kinda comes with the package.

But cheating and other forms of toolery will not be tolerated in the Gladiator, or at any other event at AdeptiCon. However, as I said, we don't have the staffing or desire to monitor 136 players, and we don't even try. As I said at the beginning of the tournament, while the first rule of the Gladiator is "No Whining," that doesn't include things like rules questions and things that would fall into the sportsmanship category. For those, we depend on players to bring matters to our attention.

I specifically instructed my rules judges NOT to go out and look for people who were breaking rules. Because if two players are ok with how their game is being played, who am I to tell them that they're doing it wrong.

But if people brought stuff to our attention, we dealt with it. A few warnings were issued, which mostly seemed to take care of the problem. In the most serious case, we had to tell a player that his score for that round was going to be zeroed. (And before anyone asks, I won't tell who it was, and if you happen to know, I'd ask that you not share it either). But in every case, it was something that was brought to our attention by the players themselves.

#3 - On videotaping people without their consent - aside from the legal ramifications (and I now must insert the standard "I am not a lawyer" caveat) taking pictures of people is always a crapshoot. Always get permission. Always. Especially if you're going to publish. Never forget the 11th Commandment: Thou shalt always cover thy ass.

You want to know why I'm confident of being able to make a living (eventually) as a lawyer...its because people don't listen to advice from people who know what they're talking about.


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tastytaste wrote:
I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

Just because you're not doing it for profit doesn't necessarily mean you're in the clear. You could still (and again, I'm not a lawyer) be opening yourself up to some serious legal liabilities.

tastytaste wrote:

Or is this just an attempt to get this thread locked?

You had to know the clock started ticking on this thread from the second it was posted, right?

I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

Receiving monetary compensation has nothing to do with it, because I received money, I had to give it to her.

If I didn't sell them she still could've sued me to have the negatives destroyed. Its all about permissions.

Also, just to play devil's advocate, telling someone you're video taping them isn't getting permission.

I have no objection to having someone video tape me while playing, I have nothing to hide, well except for maybe some ignorance about the game, but some people on here seem to be throwing out some ridiculous statements about being able to film in public without permission.

Daggermaw wrote:

I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

Receiving monetary compensation has nothing to do with it, because I received money, I had to give it to her.

If I didn't sell them she still could've sued me to have the negatives destroyed. Its all about permissions.

Also, just to play devil's advocate, telling someone you're video taping them isn't getting permission.

I have no objection to having someone video tape me while playing, I have nothing to hide, well except for maybe some ignorance about the game, but some people on here seem to be throwing out some ridiculous statements about being able to film in public without permission.

I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

Because youtube absolves itself of all responsibility in its terms of use. People could sue the uploader of the video though. Its mostly for the same reason that people back down from GW, suing someone is expensive.

I guess the real question would be, if you had asked him to video tape the game and he said no, what would you have done?

Daggermaw wrote:

I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

Because youtube absolves itself of all responsibility in its terms of use. People could sue the uploader of the video though. Its mostly for the same reason that people back down from GW, suing someone is expensive.

You hit it on the head it is expensive =)

tastytaste wrote:I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

The Star Wars kid got a tidy sum of money for his exposure. It does happen.

Darkwynn wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

I don't want Adepticon hurt by this, they work very hard putting on a event like this and they are all great people. I wouldn't want anything on them to reflect bad by any means. To me in the Grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. Lets move on and promote the hobby and bring more people there. Adepticon is one of the best events and I don't want something like this to bring it down one bit.

I jut want to bring this up again: very classy on Darkwynn's part.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

I don't want Adepticon hurt by this, they work very hard putting on a event like this and they are all great people. I wouldn't want anything on them to reflect bad by any means. To me in the Grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. Lets move on and promote the hobby and bring more people there. Adepticon is one of the best events and I don't want something like this to bring it down one bit.

I jut want to bring this up again: very classy on Darkwynn's part.

It should go to Mattias for running a great a event not me.

I'd like to thank Tastytaste for his post. Disregarding the pointless derailing regarding photographic legalities, it's been an interesting look at some possibly shady play.

Not having gone to a major tournament, but reading about plenty of possible cheats (deliberate or accidental through sloppy play), I found it enlightening. Stuff moves so quickly, some issues seem small (imprecise measuring) and you don't want to get too nitpicky and risk having your sportsmanship score dinged (if you care about such things), so it's neat to see an example in real time to consider how you'd react.

Grot 6 wrote:
1. Your camera angle was craptastic, you have no right putting a guy out on front street with that bullgak film with only YOUR supposed side of it.

From his site, it appears he was just taking pictures and video of the event, not hunting for cheating and getting the best irrefutable evidence for use in a court case. Lesson learned: if you don't have multi-million dollar professional recording equipment from all angles, don't bother.

Grot 6 wrote:
3. YOU put it out that they are cheating, then put it up on a website. SO.... What did the judges say about it AT THE TIME OF THE GAME?

As you already know there aren't refs at each table watching the game, and no player requested one (who would have only been present after a cheating event), so this is a meaningless point to make. Whether or not an act was caught by a referee doesn't determine whether cheating existed or not.

Grot 6 wrote:
4. Missle launchers... hmmm so was it 3 or 4? Who called him on it the first time it happened? WHY then would it have to happen a second time without calling him out and calling a judge?

Are you suggesting that his previous opponent should have told his subsequent opponent?

Grot 6 wrote:6. The fact that you would bring this to Dakka, instead of leaving it on your own site, where you have alrady crucified this guy in public record doesn't say much for you, either.

Plenty of other people posts links to their own sites with news, products, etc. Just because you disapprove of this thread doesn't mean the linking concept is wrong.

Grot 6 wrote:From what we see here, YOU have the guy already pegged, and are egging on a nonsituation that should have been dealt with IN HOUSE AT THE GAME.

Instead of calling someone out for cheating and "Letting you decide", why don't you come to the table with facts, instead of accusations?

He didn't egg anything on...at least not at the time. He just filmed what was going on, saw something that seemed a little off, a recorded it specifically. He reported it as such, showed the video, so what more do you want? Depositions from both plyers and all observers? Again, letting things be "dealt with IN HOUSE AT THE GAME" (which, in this case, meant not dealt with at all) doesn't have any bearing on whether or not cheating occurred, only if it was caught by event staff.

Speaking of event staff, these comments caught my attention, too:

Centurian99 wrote:
But if people brought stuff to our attention, we dealt with it. A few warnings were issued, which mostly seemed to take care of the problem. In the most serious case, we had to tell a player that his score for that round was going to be zeroed. (And before anyone asks, I won't tell who it was, and if you happen to know, I'd ask that you not share it either). But in every case, it was something that was brought to our attention by the players themselves.

I'd be curious to hear what kind of situations tournament organizers receive, and how they are handled. What if one player uses one set of dice for leadership rolls and another for shooting...could be legit cheating or silly superstition. Are dice tested? Does the "suspected" player just stop using different dice for the rest of the match and use them again in the next round?

What if your opponent keeps adding an inch or two to movement and you call a ref over...does he stay and watch the whole game? If not, and the opponent starts it up again, what happens? He denies it, the game comes to a standstill and time runs out in turn 3 or something...if the score stands because nothing can be proved either way, I can see why people may avoid calling refs and just suck it up.

What kind of event gets your score "zeroed out"? I know you may be hesitant to divulge to avoid identifying the individual, but with most actual crimes you have an idea of what the punishment is. Here, I have no idea how issues are handled, investigatively or punitively. I don't even have a clue as to how common it is.

Brother Ramses wrote:
And I would have kept taping and then just blurred your face out before posting it online. Problem solved.

I'm with frazz on this one. Get your youtube out my god damned game. While you're at it, get offa my lawn.