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nosferatu1001 wrote:You said you were setting up terrain OUTSIDE the board - there are only rules for setting terrain up ON the board.

No, I said only the very edge of the terrain (use walls or fences for reference, not buildings and craters) will hang slightly over the edge. It's still on the board. By your own admission, .00001" is still "on" the board.

yeah,
It seems to me that RAI goes to lengths ensure that models are always placed on the table.
IMO I'd say that the the tank is placed on the board and then immobilized.

Panic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deathreaper -please find a rule that states a model partially on the table is out of play. It clearly isnt as it has fulfilled the rules for moving on.

ALso you are in essence stting a monolith entering from reserves is destroyed, as it CANNOT move fully onto the table.

There is NO rule stating that off == destroyed. It is a houserule, same as the houserule people tend to use when board edges are blocked for reserves entering.

Well P.92 under 'Pitched Battle' has you deploy in your half of the table (not outside of, or partially on the table), therefore anything else must = in reserve/out of play.

ChrisCP wrote:

They are partially on the table, but they are not on the table.

If only a part of them are in your table half, the other part of them, by default, are not in your table half, so thats a negative.

when looking at deploying in your table half, the whole model must be in your table half. If part of the model is not in your table half then they are breaking the rules. since the rules say models are to be placed in your table half.

Deathreaper - not entirely sure what you're going on about, but this is "moving on from reserves"

Also you contradict yourself. Being partially on the table is indeed being ON the table -please state how this is not the case. Lignuistically I can prove I am on the table, and Indeed have done so repeatedly.

I just did it with set theory too... but, hey

True - it was just the statement that "you cna be partially on the table, but you arent on the table" being so blindingly self contradicting its amazing.

Perhaps Reaper is subconsciously inserting"fully" in front of "on the table"

But what about vehicles? Their hull is never fully on the table

The set theorey example is good, except that if the rules are read so that on the table and off the table are mutually exclusive sets there is no overlap of those two sets. So the diagram would only work if the set of on the table and the set of off the table do overlap...which is the point of that particular arguement. Its a good way to show the one side of the arguement, but the other side would show two circles that do not overlap at all.


Another point: if the vehicle is immobilized with its weapons off of the table, do the rules allow it to shoot? We know where the weapon is at and can measure from it...but the weapon would most definitely be off of the table itself.


Sliggoth

whalemusic360 wrote:I'd put the LR on the edge of the table, immobilized, becuase I think it's a bit douchey to short someone on points (oh you loose 150 points of your 1500 point army, that sucks). I'd rather it be on the board with a chance to do something. I can see the other side of the coin though.

This is what I would do ,it's a game and I always give people the best chance they can to play with their toys. If it's a friendly game then what does it matter and if it's a tournament and you need to rules lawyer it to win then your a loser anyways.

ChrisCP wrote:But what about vehicles? Their hull is never fully on the table

Obviously this means all vehicles are automatically destroyed, since I can point to parts of their hulls that are not, in fact, touching the table!

But theyre not moving off the table, so all is good!

nosferatu1001 wrote:But theyre not moving off the table, so all is good!

OH LAWD

When you move your vehicles, parts of them are not on the table whilst moving!

They are literally moving off the table!

Black is white, up is down!

I'M SO CONFUSED.

And never, ever add retro rockets to your Land Raider. It may move up, which is off, and so automatically explodes in mid air...

I don't even want to think about the implications with skimmers.

SaintHazard wrote:I don't even want to think about the implications with skimmers.

Skimmers are funny, because the rules say they can never leave their base.

but my skimmers base is under my bed

does that mean it has to stay there?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deathreaper - not entirely sure what you're going on about, but this is "moving on from reserves"

Also you contradict yourself. Being partially on the table is indeed being ON the table -please state how this is not the case. Lignuistically I can prove I am on the table, and Indeed have done so repeatedly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:True - it was just the statement that "you cna be partially on the table, but you arent on the table" being so blindingly self contradicting its amazing.

Perhaps Reaper is subconsciously inserting"fully" in front of "on the table"

the rules state that you have to be on the table. if any part of the base is not on the table then by default you have broken this rule.

Being partially on the table is not "on the table" Since part of your base is not on the table.

you have to ask yourself "is this model on the table" if the answer is yes, then you are within the rules, if the answer is yes and no (in the case of a partial on/off scenario) then you are not within the rules.

Vehicles are different in the fact that they have no base as supplied by GW, so you just have to look at this situation from a blast marker top down point of view. (the whole model must be on the table. If it is not on the table it, by default, must be out of play.)

I'd give it a 51/49 rule personally, if it came down to it. If you can get 51% or more of the vehicle on the table when coming in from reserves, it's in play. 49% or less and it's out of play and can't shoot or be shot.

Except that is not what the rules ask.

They ask you to move onto the table. By moving PARTIALLY onto the table, you HAVE fulfilled this rule because they *do not* use the word "fully" or other similar qualifier to this.

You may state otherwise, but the English language is against you on this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that is not what the rules ask.

They ask you to move onto the table. By moving PARTIALLY onto the table, you HAVE fulfilled this rule because they *do not* use the word "fully" or other similar qualifier to this.

You may state otherwise, but the English language is against you on this.

The rules state you have to move onto the table. Since it does not state partially on, by default, you have to move fully onto the table.

You are not allowed to move partially onto the table.(if you are allowed to move Partially onto the table please give me a page # that says this)

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that is not what the rules ask.

They ask you to move onto the table. By moving PARTIALLY onto the table, you HAVE fulfilled this rule because they *do not* use the word "fully" or other similar qualifier to this.

You may state otherwise, but the English language is against you on this.

The rules state you have to move onto the table. Since it does not state partially on, by default, you have to move fully onto the table.

You are not allowed to move partially onto the table.(if you are allowed to move Partially onto the table please give me a page # that says this)

There is no default defined (do you have a page reference?).

You can't ask for a page reference simply because you yourself has none. We've already told you for this line of argument that there will be no page reference, since there doesn't exist one and that one is not needed to back our argument up.

However, to destroy or remove a model from play, you DO need the rules to tell you how and when to do that, so where's your reference?

DeathReaper wrote:

The rules state you have to move onto the table. Since it does not state partially on, by default, you have to move fully onto the table.

You are not allowed to move partially onto the table.(if you are allowed to move Partially onto the table please give me a page # that says this)

No, try that again. You are trying to claim that, because it does NOT state "fully" on, it still actuall means that "by default"?

Sorry, that isnt how English, nor these rules written in English, works.

You are allowed to move partially ON because the rule only requires you to move ON. If you move partially ON you are still, actually, ON the table. Not sure how to explain this any more simply to you.

If you wish to debat e further, please find a page number that defines that "onto" actually means, by default "fully onto". Anything?

I can't believe he is arguing against the venn diagram. That is about as simple as he can make it, the model is ON THE TABLE. Even if it is only partially.

EDIT- double psot

If the terrain has been defined at the start of the game to go right to the edge of the table, the tank coming in gets stopped outside, that is, off the edge of the table.

It is a basic principle that stuff which isn't on the table can't be in the game, else Tau would be lobbing in Seeker missiles all day long.

For my opinion, I am happy to see the tank dead off the edge of the table and out of the game.

If you want to argue about that, you need to acknowledge that the rules don't make sense in this situation, and come to a reasonable compromise.

If it was a friendly game and my opponent was visibly upset by his disaster, I would let the tank be parked at the edge of the table, and make a sensible adjustment to range when it fires or is shot at.

Life is too short to nitpick about stupidities in the rules.

Kilkrazy wrote:If the terrain has been defined at the start of the game to go right to the edge of the table, the tank coming in gets stopped outside, that is, off the edge of the table.

It is a basic principle that stuff which isn't on the table can't be in the game, else Tau would be lobbing in Seeker missiles all day long.

For my opinion, I am happy to see the tank dead off the edge of the table and out of the game.

If you want to argue about that, you need to acknowledge that the rules don't make sense in this situation, and come to a reasonable compromise.

If it was a friendly game and my opponent was visibly upset by his disaster, I would let the tank be parked at the edge of the table, and make a sensible adjustment to range when it fires or is shot at.

Life is too short to nitpick about stupidities in the rules.

+1 lock this thread please its going no where and is making me sad

Actually, that's an entirely different line of argument. Here Kilkrazy claims that the model does not make it into play - which is an entirely a more appropriate line of argument* - but then you get a completely different follow-up questions; if they do not manage to get into play, how can it be damaged from terrain?

Also, if it is damaged to immobility and still not in play, then it is still in reserves, and since it is now immobilized, it is now deployed through deep striking (models permanently immobile arrive as such). Depending on how much weight you put on "permanently" (does that imply permanently before and after or just after, and is it permanent in an army which can repair immobilized results?).

In either case, Kilkrazy, Tau would not be allowed to lob missiles from reserves or deep strike forces since those have not entered play until they have made their move after succeeding a reserve roll. Note that the rules only give you permission to place the model after you've began the arriving movement.

* For a model to be destroyed, the rules must state it is destroyed - the rules never state the model is destroyed if it is off the table or in contact with the table edge, unless the unit is retreating and is in process of making it's compulsory movement.

P.S. Life may be short, but I find discussions like these to be rather fun as long as they proceed forward and constructively (going around in circles - not so fun).

Ordo Dakka wrote:I can't believe he is arguing against the venn diagram. That is about as simple as he can make it, the model is ON THE TABLE. Even if it is only partially.

EDIT- double psot

The deployment rules give us our basis for what is in play and what is not in play. P92/93.

Since you have to deploy in your half/quarter of the table this disallows you from deploying partially on and partially off the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

The rules state you have to move onto the table. Since it does not state partially on, by default, you have to move fully onto the table.

You are not allowed to move partially onto the table.(if you are allowed to move Partially onto the table please give me a page # that says this)

No, try that again. You are trying to claim that, because it does NOT state "fully" on, it still actuall means that "by default"?

Sorry, that isnt how English, nor these rules written in English, works.

You are allowed to move partially ON because the rule only requires you to move ON. If you move partially ON you are still, actually, ON the table. Not sure how to explain this any more simply to you.

If you wish to debat e further, please find a page number that defines that "onto" actually means, by default "fully onto". Anything?

if you move partially on, you are on and off the table.

You have to be on the gameboard to play the game, this disallows you from moving partially on the board. See page 88 'The gaming surface'

This gives you the allowed area to play the game, anything outside this surface is not in play.

now please give me your page #'s that over-ride these.

Edited for spelling.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deathreaper - not entirely sure what you're going on about, but this is "moving on from reserves"

Also you contradict yourself. Being partially on the table is indeed being ON the table -please state how this is not the case. Lignuistically I can prove I am on the table, and Indeed have done so repeatedly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:True - it was just the statement that "you cna be partially on the table, but you arent on the table" being so blindingly self contradicting its amazing.

Perhaps Reaper is subconsciously inserting"fully" in front of "on the table"

the rules state that you have to be on the table. if any part of the base is not on the table then by default you have broken this rule.

Being partially on the table is not "on the table" Since part of your base is not on the table.

you have to ask yourself "is this model on the table" if the answer is yes, then you are within the rules, if the answer is yes and no (in the case of a partial on/off scenario) then you are not within the rules.

Vehicles are different in the fact that they have no base as supplied by GW, so you just have to look at this situation from a blast marker top down point of view. (the whole model must be on the table. If it is not on the table it, by default, must be out of play.)

Wow, really? OK, let's apply this logic to an actual in game situation. Let's talk spearhead.

I take a super-heavy spearhead of a Baneblade. The Baneblade may only move 6" per turn and is about 10-12" long by eyeballing it. The spearhead rules specify that the super-heavy takes an automatic penetrating hit turn one unless the vehicle moves on from reserve. To avoid the initial pen, I elect to bring my super-heavy in from reserve. On turn two it comes in 6" and stops--halfway on the board. . . and by your logic is destroyed.

So, GW let's me avoid a penetrating hit by destroying my own vehicle without ever being able to place it on the board? Wow. You'll ignore this because it's crippling to further discussion, but you'll keep arguing anyway.


So yea, overhang is beyond obviously allowed.