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Oshova wrote:
So Shrouding isn't conferred onto the unit meaning the unit doesn't have Shrouding . .

So it doesn't matter whether the unit counts as a Grey Knight unit, or whatver. Because the UNIT doesn't have shrouding. An IC stuck onto the unit does.

Dude, I think you are missing the major argument, and the rule that states that an IC is a unit. The entire unit does not need to have the shrouding for the shrouding to be active, nothing in the rules says that it would.

Oshova wrote:
Your example of Typhus's defensive grenades falls flat on it's face. We're talking about special rules, not equipment.

"Blight grenades" is a special rule on page 38 of C:CSM.

Oshova wrote:
So in summation. The unit doesn't count as a Grey Knight unit. The unit doesn't have Shrouding. And you can shoot the unit as easily as a big pink elephant dancing the fandango . . . Or something like that.

So please, unless YOU can prove that the unit is a unit of Grey Knights, then please stop posting that the unit can use Shrouding, or any other Grey Knight specific special rule.

Oshova

I did prove the unit consists of a unit of grey knights, and thus, the shrouding would activate. Shrouding does not specify that it MUST be a unit of ONLY grey knights. Until you can prove otherwise, I think I'll keep posting. Thanks for the suggestion tho.

~DAR

P.S.
@Gwar, Why does the shrouding not protect them? You have yet to explain where in the rules it states that "The Shrouding" only works on "Units wholly made up of grey knights". Your Troop/HQ Unit example states that they still hold their two original unit values. If a GKGM would still hold its unit value of "Grey Knight Unit" then why would The Shrouding not activate if he was joined to a unit of troops (IST)? Is not the Shrouding's condition of "A Unit Of Grey Knights being targeted" not met? (Much like the "Scoring Units" rule's condition of "Must be troops" is still met when joined by an Independent Character that is not troops)

Scoring units does not say "Must be troops, and CANNOT BE COMBINED WITH ANY NON-TROOP to be scoring" So why is "The Shrouding" auto-magically "A unit of Grey knights, and CANNOT BE COMBINED WITH ANY NON-GREY KNIGHTS to be protected by shrouding?"

Oshova wrote:
So Shrouding isn't conferred onto the unit meaning the unit doesn't have Shrouding . .

So it doesn't matter whether the unit counts as a Grey Knight unit, or whatver. Because the UNIT doesn't have shrouding. An IC stuck onto the unit does.

No, but it doesn't have to confer it for the Shrouding to still work. It is not a question of whether it confers it to the other unit, but whether the unit which already has it loses its ability to use it because it joined another unit. This comment is irrelevant.

Oshova wrote:
Your example of Typhus's defensive grenades falls flat on it's face. We're talking about special rules, not equipment.

Wrong. Typhus has a Special Rule called "The Destroyer Hive" which makes him count as having Defensive and Frag grenades. The "defensive grenades" are gifted by a Special Rule, not wargear.

Oshova wrote:
So in summation. The unit doesn't count as a Grey Knight unit. The unit doesn't have Shrouding. And you can shoot the unit as easily as a big pink elephant dancing the fandango . . . Or something like that.

So please, unless YOU can prove that the unit is a unit of Grey Knights, then please stop posting that the unit can use Shrouding, or any other Grey Knight specific special rule.

Oshova

Did you read any of our comments?

We are not claiming the combined unit is a GK unit!!!!!!!

You have a combined unit.

There is a Stormtrooper unit and a GK unit that make the combined unit..

You shoot the combined unit.

What did you just shoot at? A Stormtrooper unit and a GK unit.

What happens when you shoot a Grey Knight unit?

Shrouding.


I don't know how many more times I have to explain this.

Plenty of other special rules are provided to squads by units joining them, but it always states that the rule is conferred to any squad the character/unit joins. I think that might be the difference here.

All this convoluted argument is doing is prompting people to play wiht GK incorrectly. Luckily, this won't happen for long.

The entire basis for Gwar, Nos and my own posts is simple.

A unit of GK is not the same as a unit of (anything else) with an attached IC.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.

calypso2ts wrote:The entire basis for Gwar, Nos and my own posts is simple.

A unit of GK is not the same as a unit of (anything else) with an attached IC.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.

If you'd prove it with rules instead of constant appeals to your own authority you might convince someone.

Speaking of fallacies.

calypso2ts wrote:
If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.

You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which confirms this, you would have posted it.

Instead there are a number of cries of "Because we said so" without any actual rule based backing, and ignoring the rules provided which DOES specifically show examples of how Combined units retain their original values, being used to say that this is the case.

@Ordo, the question of if the rule is CONFERRED to the ENTIRE unit is not what is being discussed here (At least, I hope not, if so then its OBVIOUS why so many of you seem to think contrary), the question is "is the Shrouding Lost" we all seem to agree "No" so as it is NOT lost by the unit which had it, WHY does it "Fail to activate" when the unit (which contains a unit of grey knights, as described in the condition for the rule to function) is targeted by "Shooting".

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which confirms this, you would have posted it.

How about this:
"Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights...."

That is word for word what the shrouding says (See, I can quote without scanning books illegally).

A Unit of Grey Knights with a non-GK character is no longer a unit of Grey Knights.

It really is that simple.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:
If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.

You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.

Yeah, because in every other case the rule specifically states that it is conferred to a squad joined by the IC/Unit with the rule. The Shrouding does not state this, it is Grey Knight units only, and the rule is not said to be conferred. Assuming that it is goes against the grain for all the other rules in the game, surely the burden of proof is on you?

Ordo Dakka wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:
If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.

You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.

Yeah, because in every other case the rule specifically states that it is conferred to a squad joined by the IC/Unit with the rule. The Shrouding does not state this, it is Grey Knight units only, and the rule is not said to be conferred. Assuming that it is goes against the grain for all the other rules in the game, surely the burden of proof is on you?

It doesn't need to be conferred for the ability to still work. If the GK unit within the combined unit has the rule, then the fact that the other part of the combined unit doesn't have/get conferred the rule is irrelevant.

But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!

Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!

But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.

Darth Bob wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!

But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.

That isn't what the rule says though!

What if you don't shoot at the GK part of the unit? And as Nos has pointed out it is against the rules to fire at 2 units at the same time so how do you have 2 units in 1? With your 2 in 1 theory no one could shoot at it without violating the rules so you don't need shrouding since the unit can't be shot at.

Gwar! wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!

But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.

That isn't what the rule says though!

It says it activates when you shoot a unit of Grey Knights. One of the ingredients of the combined unit is a unit of Grey Knights, so you are still shooting a unit of Grey Knights!

Darth Bob wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!

But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.

That isn't what the rule says though!

It says it activates when you shoot a unit of Grey Knights. One of the ingredients of the combined unit is a unit of Grey Knights, so you are still shooting a unit of Grey Knights!

You aren't though, you are shooting a "Unit of Grey Knights + an IC", which is not a "Unit of Grey Knights."

Leo_the_Rat wrote:What if you don't shoot at the GK part of the unit?

You can't see the rules about IC and shooting for more details

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And as Nos has pointed out it is against the rules to fire at 2 units at the same time so how do you have 2 units in 1? With your 2 in 1 theory no one could shoot at it without violating the rules so you don't need shrouding since the unit can't be shot at.

You are firing at the "Combined Unit"

The "Combined unit" contains a unit of grey knights

Because you are firing at a unit of grey knights

You must roll for shrouding.

I submit to you this!

As the rules have absolutely no mention of a unit of Grey Knights no longer being a "unit of grey knights" when joined/joining other units, so therefore they are still a unit of grey knights, and as such, are still able of having their passive special rules (Aegis, Shrouding, Exorcism Rites, etc) followed. As nothing in the rules currently states they are no longer a unit of grey knights when attached, then when the combined unit (including them) is targeted, then their sub-type of "being a unit of grey knights" still applies, and as such, the Shrouding roll still applies.

Does this mean that a unit of Death company, with 9 sanguinary priests, Astorath the Grim and a GKGM still count as a unit of grey knights when being targeted? Yes! and as the RAW holds no mention of otherwise, if following RAW, this is how it works (Gwar, you should respect this notion).

If you would like to "Propose" this rule be changed, by all means, propose it. Until such Errata occurs, this is how the rules read, and how they should be played.

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Does this mean that a unit of Death company, with 9 sanguinary priests, Astorath the Grim and a GKGM still count as a unit of grey knights when being targeted? Yes! and as the RAW holds no mention of otherwise, if following RAW, this is how it works (Gwar, you should respect this notion).

LMFAO.

And this is why no-one listens to you.

For the record, I do follow RaW. What you are doing is so against the RaW I don't think there is even a word for it.

Daemon-Archon, it seems you are following the rules-as-not-prohibited rather than the rules-as-written. There is no evidence to support that Grey Knights grant this rule to a unit they join. There is, however, precedent to suggest that if that WAS the way the rule was intended to work, it would say so in the rule's entry.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
the rules have absolutely no mention of a unit of Grey Knights no longer being a "unit of grey knights" when joined/joining other units,

Insult me all you want Gwar, until you prove otherwise, the above statement is correct.

Lets just leave it as a judgment call

Gwar! wrote:
For the record, I do follow RaW. What you are doing is so against the RaW I don't think there is even a word for it.

Give one RAW thing that says there is a problem with DAR's statement. Exactly, you can't.

You are saying a model loses its seperate unit status by joining another unit. You have no proof of this. So until you do, you're wrong.

P.S.

I went to my LGS and brought this up. For all of you who are on your high and mighty horse saying "Oh DAR and Darth Bob are just idiots who don't play real 40k.", the division of people for Shrouding and against Shrouding was very even. We had a few of our gaming veterans; men who've been playing 40k since the rogue trader days who completely agreed with DAR and I's statement.

The fact is, this is a completely legitimate interpretation of how this ruling should go. So stop with the "this is why no-one listens to you" or "Careful what you say because it could get you banned" comments, put on your big boy pants, and actually use viable reason and evidence to back up your argument. Otherwise, it's all hot air.

Oh I believe you that it was divided, i'm only saying what I believe. I didn't mean to be a tool, sorry if it came off that way.

Ordo Dakka wrote:Oh I believe you that it was divided, i'm only saying what I believe. I didn't mean to be a tool, sorry if it came off that way.

No, no, no. That comment was general, not directed at you.

I'm simply trying to tell all the people who are (indirectly) calling DAR an idiot (instead of actually rebuttling his argument with equally good arguments) to grow up.

Darth Bob wrote:

Ordo Dakka wrote:Oh I believe you that it was divided, i'm only saying what I believe. I didn't mean to be a tool, sorry if it came off that way.

No, no, no. That comment was general, not directed at you.

I'm simply trying to tell all the people who are (indirectly) calling DAR an idiot (instead of actually rebuttling his argument with equally good arguments) to grow up.

Particularly when he showed pictures of the rules that they claim prove them right.

No you are claiming they remain distinct entities for the purposes of shooting, which they do not. The shooting rules even state you shoot at the entire unit and you treat an IC as being part of that unit.

Since they are all being shot at, and they are not all GK's, it is not a unit of GK - EDIT: Further there are no rules at all which allow you to target a 'sub unit' or even make a distinction between shooting at 'sub units' of any type (or combined unit or whatever you like) - hence, you shoot the entire unit which is not a unit of gk's

The rules reference we are using is simple...the rules of shrouding itself which explicitly requires a unit of GK's...

No matter what, an IC JOINED to a GK unit is JOINED to the unit, for shooting it is treated exactly like it is a single unit, even for shrouding (unless otherwise specified of course).

calypso2ts wrote:
No matter what, an IC JOINED to a GK unit is JOINED to the unit, for shooting it is treated exactly like it is a single unit, even for shrouding (unless otherwise specified of course).

You know what, I'm done with showing you mountains of evidence, that you refuse to accept, so now I offer you a SINGLE challenge which will require a single entry of evidence.

Prove it.

Prove that there are WORDS IN ANY GW RULE BOOK I REFERENCE TO THE CURRENT EDITION OF WARHAMMER 40K (Even prior editions for that matter) that the claim of.

"A unit that has been defined by page 20 of C: DH as a "Grey Knight" unit is no longer a "Grey Knight Unit" when joined/or joining a Non-Grey Knight unit"

Balls in your court.
~DAR

Let us say that a GK unit is equal to 2. Then let us go on to say that any other non GK unit is 1. The rules state that when shooting at 2, shroud goes off. When you join a GK unit with a non GK unit, you simply add them to obtain 3. 3 is no longer defined as 1 or 2. When shooting, you shoot at 3. You don't say I'm shooting at 1+2. For all we know 3 could have been 1+1+1 or 0+3. There is only one unit being shot at. The rules clearly state that this unit has become one single new unit. This one single unit isn't "a unit of GK. " This new unit is "GK+ non GK." Do the rules say when shooting at "a unit of GK+ non GK?" They don't. If units worked the way you are claiming I could say, "I'm going to shoot into your assault squad with an attached Sanguinary Priest, but only direct my shots at the Sanguinary Priest because after all it is an assault squad and a Sanguinary Priest, two separate units within a unit." This obviously would not work as they become one new unit. So the GK+ non GK are a new unit, which no longer defines itself as a unit of GK. For the sake of the first part 1+1=3.

Someone should draw a venn daigram or something

I'm done. It's obvious that you all are just going to recycle the same nonsense reasoning over and over again, and I'm not going to dignify said nonsense with a practical C&P of the same answer I (and DAR) gave before.

Let me know when you answer the question put forward by DAR, because until you do that, you have nothing.

Darth Bob wrote:I'm done. It's obvious that you all are just going to recycle the same logical reasoning over and over again, and I'm not going to dignify said logical reasoning with a practical answer.

Let me know when you find a way to explain common sense to me.

Fixed.
If the rules say it only affects a unit of GKs and you have agreed the unit is not a unit of GKs anymore then what is there to argue?