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While I like the notion that the wolves are animal blanks, that doesn't explain how Wyrdmake relates to his wolf Ymir, or how Leman Russ gets along with Freki and the other one. Or why Rune Priests appeal to spirits.

I'm rereading A Thousand Sons and the author goes to some laborious lengths to make the moral ambiguity of everything an issue. Is the Warp heaven, or hell?

Something that Codex: Chaos Space Marines (and Lord of the Night) makes clear is that the line is crossed when something is done for its own selfish purposes, and that corruption is a matter of turning inward. That's why I like the lack of And They Shall Know No Fear in Chaos Space Marines: morale goes to pot when your fellow soldiers are no longer willing to die for you or the cause. Not that there aren't a lot of lines crossed along the way, but the big one seems to be the inversion of intention.

Which is kind of neat if you know anything about Dante's Divine Comedy where the Inferno, Hell, is an inward spiral of man gradually turning away from god, his community, and ultimately himself.

The Thousand Sons, in the eponymous novel, take the value of knowledge for its own sake long before they realize that they've damned themselves, and it's just a matter of time before they decide to go all in and preserve themselves from their reckoning.

Similarly the Luna Wolves are full of themselves as the foremost legion, the Emperor's Children are proud of their own pride, trying to make it a virtue, and the Death Guard are indominatible because that's who they are. Captain Kharn of the World Eaters shows their taint when he reveals that he expects no end to the Great Crusade, and the Night Haunter commits suicide rather than descend into the embrace of Chaos. All of the traitor legions turn inward and discover the emptiness of Chaos waiting for them. When they're no longer fighting for glorious ideals, for the Emperor's vision of the galaxy, etc. Magnus' own attempt at suicide fails when he decides to act in his Legion's interests, his own interests, rather than calmly putting his own head on the chopping block.

Nurglitch wrote:While I like the notion that the wolves are animal blanks, that doesn't explain how Wyrdmake relates to his wolf Ymir, or how Leman Russ gets along with Freki and the other one. Or why Rune Priests appeal to spirits.

I'm rereading A Thousand Sons and the author goes to some laborious lengths to make the moral ambiguity of everything an issue. Is the Warp heaven, or hell?

Something that Codex: Chaos Space Marines (and Lord of the Night) makes clear is that the line is crossed when something is done for its own selfish purposes, and that corruption is a matter of turning inward. That's why I like the lack of And They Shall Know No Fear in Chaos Space Marines: morale goes to pot when your fellow soldiers are no longer willing to die for you or the cause. Not that there aren't a lot of lines crossed along the way, but the big one seems to be the inversion of intention.

Which is kind of neat if you know anything about Dante's Divine Comedy where the Inferno, Hell, is an inward spiral of man gradually turning away from god, his community, and ultimately himself.

The Thousand Sons, in the eponymous novel, take the value of knowledge for its own sake long before they realize that they've damned themselves, and it's just a matter of time before they decide to go all in and preserve themselves from their reckoning.

Similarly the Luna Wolves are full of themselves as the foremost legion, the Emperor's Children are proud of their own pride, trying to make it a virtue, and the Death Guard are indominatible because that's who they are. Captain Kharn of the World Eaters shows their taint when he reveals that he expects no end to the Great Crusade, and the Night Haunter commits suicide rather than descend into the embrace of Chaos. All of the traitor legions turn inward and discover the emptiness of Chaos waiting for them. When they're no longer fighting for glorious ideals, for the Emperor's vision of the galaxy, etc. Magnus' own attempt at suicide fails when he decides to act in his Legion's interests, his own interests, rather than calmly putting his own head on the chopping block.

Beautiful The most well thought out paragraphs I have read in this thread. *claps* (No I am not being sarcastic. I do mean it. It was well done. And I kinda was thinking that too.)

Well said indeed!

mrwhoop wrote:Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

Ok so if it is completly possible then what are the chances that every single one of the humans who did this would all develop every trait that Wolves had and why is there not ANYTHING in any fluff except for one little section in a fairly new book that supports the idea when every other scrap of fluff says otherwise.

Considering what we know of genetics it's possible to assert that some influence (they did it to themselves or the warp did it) messed with a sufficient number of the populous to cause varying traits that could make wulfen (man animal), upright wolves (animal man), Fenrisian wolves (animal) over so much time. Also, GW is just now writing out the Horus Heresy and while the bits of fluff have been around, we're just now getting detailed official cannon. I've seen older codexes, not wholly fluff changing but they have retcon hammered some backgrounds (WitchHunter/SoB come to mind).

Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

And again if it is completly possible why aren't the current tribes devolving into wolves as they are the direct descendants of the original colonists. And it can't be said that they are descendants of colonists who didn't recieve the gene treatment (if any did) because they would want everyone to have better chances of survival not just some.

I would say if it were some self medication experiment/process that those that didn't change had some trait/warp influence that allowed them to stay human and when exposed to more allowed the first stages of changes to show. That is to say the marine process bulked them up, and the enhanced sense of smell/sight were the first stages of wulfen. They go too far and boom, first transition that is wulfen. Thus why the SW can recruit from them has they had this/these trait(s) that kept them human and not turn into the Fenrisian wolves of today.

Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

And considering the Warp making anything possible I very highly doubt that the warp would turn such a large number of beings into the same uniform creature considering the warp is an entity/substance that thrives on diversity and (no pun intended) chaos so to say that the warp affected them just enough to turn them into wolves but not enough for anything else to happen is trying to twist something to suit what you want.

And that's why I think whatever trait/warp influence caused this freaked out the tutelaries because they were entities that were stabilizing/stable in the material. These new things (Fenriasian wolves) were not aligned to the 4 Ruinious Powers and whatnot.

Ok, I have provided very clear fluff based points as to why the original human colonists of Fenris DID NOT evolve into wolves. So far no one has actually been able to put any cited fluff supported arguments against the points I've made (because there are none). And no one has bothered to answer the pruposed questions I have made which concern the many many holes in the idea. Also no one has been able to provide any further sources that even come close to supporting the idea, and you can say that the history of the Imperium is just now being revealed in detail but tell me something. Does that section of the Thousand Sons book outright say that "Oh these wolves are differant then normal wolves they must have come from humans"? no it dosen't in fact it dosen't give any explenation. That can hardly be considered revealing the history of the Space Wolves in detail.

You want the idea to be valid, disprove the points I've made that have said the exact opposite of the idea and IF you can disprove them do it WITH FLUFF. Viably answer the questions I posed which again are large holes in the idea and do it WITH FLUFF. And do all of this without using the idea that "anything can happen" because you know what yes anything CAN happen but if it is not supported in fluff or in a case of presedence then that does not mean that it HAS happened. You can think I'm making a flame war, you can think what you anything want for that matter I don't really care. I am supported by the established fluff that has been written and has been used multiple times versus 1 source that isn't conclusive, barely hinting in no general direction and is not supported in a relative way by anything else in the 40k universe.

Seaward wrote:Wasn't Space Wolves having werewolf aspects emphasized a little more in previous codices? I believe that before Thunderwolf cheese became the defining characteristic of Space Wolves, they were generally derogatorily referred to as Viking werewolves. Circumstantial and weak, but it may add a touch of credibility to the Fenrisians' devolution theory.

Exactly. Some of you guys are developing some interesting complex theories, but GW keeps their concepts simple -- because simple concepts are usually the most evocative. SW are Viking werewolves just like BA are baroque vampires. "There are no wolves on Fenris" is most likely a nod to lycanthropy.

Well I'm sorry Warboss Imbad Ironskull but you never listed your sources of fluff so your explanation is just as valid and invalid as those laid out. Fluff based points still aren't fluff/official cannon. All of this is fan based explanations as there are no cannon sources I have read to say where the Fen wolves came from. I think the BRB says colonists brought animals with them but Terra doesn't have Kraken or giant wolves with steel for fur or Ice Bears. Or at the least doesn't mention it. And I did address your holes about colonists becoming the wolves and those that didn't became wolves are the recruiting pool the SW use today.

Yes I can say this is the history of the SW in detail because I made it up. The only thing that was revealed in the line "There are no wolves on Fenris" as some Thousand Son said that could be literal or metaphysical and it would be correct. Because we don't know and maybe they'll shed some light on it or GW will squat the idea later.

And I can't remember the title but there was a stranded IG on a world and the gravity was so strong the local pop had to alter themselves to have 4 legs to move around. Kinda human but not right? So I have fluff based support to say early colonists can radically change themselves with old tech. Please list your source(s) (dex edition too) as there's still room for discussion and no I don't think you're in a flame war...at least I don't read you with that mind set.

mrwhoop wrote:
And I can't remember the title but there was a stranded IG on a world and the gravity was so strong the local pop had to alter themselves to have 4 legs to move around. Kinda human but not right?

I believe the story was in Let the Galaxy Burn and if I remember correctly the guardsmen even found a functioning SCT system on the planet.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

mrwhoop wrote:
And I can't remember the title but there was a stranded IG on a world and the gravity was so strong the local pop had to alter themselves to have 4 legs to move around. Kinda human but not right?

I believe the story was in Let the Galaxy Burn and if I remember correctly the guardsmen even found a functioning SCT system on the planet.

And then it got blowed up... or burnt.

as usual, damn grimdark running around burning things...and people...and galaxies...

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Does that section of the Thousand Sons book outright say that "Oh these wolves are differant then normal wolves they must have come from humans"? no it dosen't in fact it dosen't give any explenation. That can hardly be considered revealing the history of the Space Wolves in detail.

Nope. All it says is that there are no wolves on Fenris. Whether you take the statement at face value, whether you believe it's a metaphor, whether you think it's a hint of something dark and sinister...that's basically what this thread appears to be about.

And, for the record, as far as I can tell, there's no fluff stating that the Fenrisian colonists DIDN'T devolve into wolves, just as there's no fluff indicating they did. I think it's a far-out theory, but then again, as I stated previously, Space Wolves were Viking werewolves before they were Viking Thunderwolf spam, so it's possible there's something to it until proven otherwise.

there is also the matter of Canis Wolfborn. old Boyo is certainly closer to the wolves than his own kind, sharing a, kindred if you will.

Brother Heinrich wrote:there is also the matter of Canis Wolfborn. old Boyo is certainly closer to the wolves than his own kind, sharing a, kindred if you will.

You know that's probably because he was raised by them.

just saying, the connection is there man

They are missing out then. We should send some wolves to Fenris.

"His eyes met those of the beast, and he saw into its heart, the alien core of the being beneath the mask of the wolf. His eyes widened in recognition, but it was too late to do anything except fight."
Phosis T'kar fighting a wolf during the Burning of Prospero. A Thousand Sons, p.235.

Recognition?
Maybe that particular wolf was possessed by something that the Tsons has previously summoned?

purplefood wrote:Recognition?
Maybe that particular wolf was possessed by something that the Tsons has previously summoned?

I think that passage lends credence to my theory that it was Alpharius.

But seriously, I think the hinting about the wolves will end up just being one big MacGuffin.

probably, which would be annoying, I'm always eager for more dirt to throw at them lol. It saddens me that GW has made them what they are now-a-days, I played SW faithfully for nigh on a decade as my beloved space vikings with excess body hair, now I shake my head and a say, 'sonny, things just aint the way they used to be.'

I wanted to bump this, as I've just now gotten my hands on the book itself, and there's far, far more to it than a simple quote that there are no wolves on Fenris. Hopefully I'm allowed to post a couple paragraphs from it - if not, somebody smack me.

Anyway, here they are, in spoiler tags:



Now, even prior to that, there's roughly a page and a half of Magnus more-than-heavily-hinting that the wolves in question are genetically engineered - and not, at all, wolves. In fact, he strongly suggests that they're, in part, the original colonists of Fenris, adapted to the environment. I know that theory was brought up before in this thread, but I wasn't aware if the fact that it was postulated in the book by a Primarch had been mentioned or not.

Seaward wrote:I wanted to bump this, as I've just now gotten my hands on the book itself, and there's far, far more to it than a simple quote that there are no wolves on Fenris. Hopefully I'm allowed to post a couple paragraphs from it - if not, somebody smack me.

Anyway, here they are, in spoiler tags:

Spoiler:

Magnus gave a studied shrug and said, “You look at those beasts and you see wolves, but is that only because it is what you expect to see?”

“What else would we see?” asked Hathor Maat. “They are wolves.”

“When you have traveled as far as I have, and seen as I have seen, you will learn that it is possible to look beyond the expected and into the true heart of a thing.”

Magnus gestured towards a wolf loping alongside the column, its powerful muscles driving it uphill through the heat without pause.

“I can look past the flesh and muscle of that beast, paring back the bone into the heart of its marrow to read every scar and twist in its genetic code. I can unravel the millennia of change back to the logos of its origins,” said Magnus. Ahriman was surprised to hear sadness in his voice, as though he had seen things he would rather not have seen. “The thing it is, what it wished to be, and all the stages of that long evolutionary road.”

The wolf stopped beside Magnus and he nodded towards it. An unspoken discourse seemed to pass between them. Ahriman caught a knowing glance from Ohthere Wyrdmake. Despite his reservations, he felt the urge to nurture the nascent kinship between them.

“Away with you!” shouted Phosis T’kar, shooing it. “Damned wolves.”

Magnus smiled. “I told you, there are no wolves on Fenris.”

Now, even prior to that, there's roughly a page and a half of Magnus more-than-heavily-hinting that the wolves in question are genetically engineered - and not, at all, wolves. In fact, he strongly suggests that they're, in part, the original colonists of Fenris, adapted to the environment. I know that theory was brought up before in this thread, but I wasn't aware if the fact that it was postulated in the book by a Primarch had been mentioned or not.

I just read the book again. And I saw that Ahriman really became evil at the end sorry to drive off topic. But anything Ahriman says after the great crusade = insanity. it is one of the levels of insanity if i recall.

No it says he is sad...
Nothing about them being human before.

This is as complicated as the Legion fiasco

I think that passage lends credence to my theory that it was Alpharius.

Hun Hun

purplefood wrote:No it says he is sad...
Nothing about them being human before.

Well, he clearly says they're not wolves.

As for the bit about them being human, as I said, that's roughly a page and a half of text prior to what I quoted. I'd post it, but knowing how GW can be about copyrighted material...I'm reluctant to do more than I already have.

Lord of battles wrote:I kinda Exopheric's veiw of this; what if the wolves are daemons of the 'god of the storms' a warp based entity that the colonists began to belive in during old night? they saw the preditors of fenris and began to view them as the god of the storms minions?
this would also explain the powers of the rune priests.

It took a million years for the Eldar to create Slaneesh, i doubt a single planet of colonists could have enough spiritual influence to will their own warp god, however minor, into being

i think the wolves might be genetically engineered creatures. taking Dog and Wolf DNA as a base, but changed so they no longer could be called as related to the wolves of earth. or they are possably a native species of Fenris that was altered in some way to suit the original colonists for reasons unknown.

i suspect the wolves are natural Blanks as a result of the engineering. hence the reason they are repulsive to the Prospero Familiars.

The blank theory is good, but it doesn't explain how Othar Wyrdmake kept one as a pet. And why the wolves didn't act like the real blanks, the Sisters of Silence, did in the battle of Prospero?

Right now there doesn't seem to be anything to rule out the theory of being a highly divergent descendants of an early Hive Fleet, or genetically altered humans, or genetically altered autochtonous lifeform, or even being possessed by daemonic beasts.

The phrase "there are no wolves in Fenris.."
Could be a reference to a secret shame of the SW, their first attempts to control an otherwise fickle warp powers if you will. Thus the wulfen kin are the reminders of their failures as well as they struggle with the burden of using and needing psyker powers while also holding at bay the "wulfen" within.

The wolf topic came up on Warseer a while back. One additional item was mentioned in that thread that hasn't been brought up here -

I don't remember the source off-hand, but Space Wolves are more resistant to mutation than non-Space Wolves - aside from the effects of the Canis Helix. It is believed that this is the result of the Canis Helix mutation basically making the recipient more resistant to any mutation other than the ones that the Helix imposes, but the exact reason for this is not known for certain.


What I suggested as a possibility in that thread was that the planet Fenris itself has evolved to protect itself from the predations of the warp. This would have included -

- Influencing the residents so that they were more resistant to warp-influenced mutation (something attributed to the Canis Helix instead by an ignorant Imperium)
- Evolving a predator that was naturally suited to hunt down and defeat warp entities that somehow materialized on Fenris. Given what we see in the novel based on the interactions between the wolves and the Thousand Sons' pet demons, the "wolves" could definitely fill this role.


Obviously if this was actually the case, then both the Imperium and the Chaos Powers would be largely ignorant. The Imperium would have studied the planet to death and put Fenrisian Wolves at all corners of the galaxy. The Chaos Powers would have blown the planet up long ago due to the threat it represented. The handful of members of the Thousand Sons who might be aware presumably wouldn't have said anything because they're not inclined to. Magnus doesn't care. And Ahriman would rather have the opportunity to study the situation without having to worry about Chaos Powers trying to destroy the planet.

Or mabe Magnus was just being a d**k and intentionally trying o be confusing sohe would appear more mystic.

purplefood wrote:Or mabe Magnus was just being a d**k and intentionally trying o be confusing sohe would appear more mystic.

Again...Alpharius.