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Gwar drat, you Ninja'd me!

I know that, the deployed thing was a brain fart/poor choice of words. The point I want to make still stands. Yes they walk on the table as one combined unit. However, the combined unit is made up of an IC unit and Snik's Kommando unit. Ghaz is not part of Snik's kommando unit in the movement phase, infact Ghaz is only an actual member of Snik's Kommando unit when shot at. Outside of shooting they are still 2 units acting as one.

Incorrect. When an IC joins he is a normal member of the unit (See assault rules which reiterates this) and is only *treated as* a seperate unit in close combat.

So it is ONE unit, and "Snikrots unit" is the unit Snikrot belongs to; this includes the IC.

Without the rulebook handy at work I wont have quotes to check what your saying Nos... That said, are you sure that when an IC joins he is always a member of the joined unit, and is no longer an IC unit? I thought that he and the unit he is joining form one combined unit consisting of 2 seperate units, unless being shot at where he is not an IC unit until after shooting.

As for 'Snikrots unit', 'snikrot's unit' does not mean 'any unit snikrot is in' does it? 'Snikrot's unit' to me implies ownership, and only Kommandos can have snikrot.

Or as you put it, if it is the unit snikrot belongs to, that unit is only Kommandos. Snikrot does not belong to any other unit than Kommandos, attached ICs or not.

Except that ghazghkull is part of snikrots unit as you placed them in reserve as such.

Ics are only Treated as being a seperate unit in assault. Ghaz is part of snikrots unit if deployed as such.

kill dem stunties wrote:Except that ghazghkull is part of snikrots unit as you placed them in reserve as such.

Ics are only Treated as being a seperate unit in assault. Ghaz is part of snikrots unit if deployed as such.

ICs can be targeted in a melee during the assault phase. However for all intents and purposes, the unit still has an IC at the end of the assault phase and they are both stuck together until the next chance you get to separate the IC from the unit (movement phase).

Just look at the rules for Tau stealth suits and their stealth fields, when dealing with joining units. Same thing.

Bottom line is the infiltrate rule doesn't transfer over, so he can't outflank, which means the unit can't outflank.

juraigamer wrote:Just look at the rules for Tau stealth suits and their stealth fields, when dealing with joining units. Same thing.

Bottom line is the infiltrate rule doesn't transfer over, so he can't outflank, which means the unit can't outflank.

You seem to have missed the point and hit the barn behind it there laddy!

No-one is saying he can outflank with Ghaz. In Fact, he can't, as Ghaz doesn't have Infiltrate, so they won't be able to Outflank with Ghaz attached.

Nothing stops them using Snikrots "Ambush" rule though, so they can use it!

DevianID has it right assuming he meant to say they can't ambush.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:DevianID has it right assuming he meant to say they can't ambush.

Except he doesnt have it right, as has been shown in this thread.

P48, ICs JOIN units meaning they are a member of the unit. Did you read the part I suggested, namely the assault section which explicitly states they become a normal member of the unit?

I think there is some confusion because of the title by the OP. The question is in regards to Snikrot's Ambush special rule which is not outflanking. As noted Snikrot's unit must be the kommandos as he is not an independent character and thus cannot join other units. An IC can join other units though - this is the other part that is a cause of confusion. Snikrot is basically a special character that counts as a nob, he cannot be picked out as a separate unit in close combat, however an IC can be picked out as a separate unit in close combat and can also leave the unit of kommandos which Snikrot cannot do. The kommandos are Snikrot's unit, an IC that has joined them is not.

Except an IC that has joined a unit has, as you are told more than once (not only in the rules but in this thread, fyi) that the IC is a normal member of the unit.

Yes, the IC can leave the unit. Irrelevant to the question of who "Snikrots unit" is - it is the unit Snikrot is a member of. Which includes the IC.

You have no rules that contradict this, you just dont like it so you argue against it.

You've missed my point altogether. I do understand that there is some confusion, which I have taken the time to explain, so I see how you are mistaken. My point of view is not based on "I don't like this so I'll argue against it", rather it's how the rules actually work.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:You've missed my point altogether. I do understand that there is some confusion, which I have taken the time to explain, so I see how you are mistaken. My point of view is not based on "I don't like this so I'll argue against it", rather it's how the rules actually work.

Considering that, as shown by Nos, myself and several others, it isn't, I would have to agree with Nos here.

Except it isnt. One person is mistaken here. You have also stated your dislike and personal bias against this entirely legal tactic more than once, making your conclusion suspect.

Being able to leave the unit at some point does not override the rules on:

- 2nd, 7/8/9th paragraph page 48. IC has JOINED the unit
- 4th paragraph page 48. IC is PART OF a unit
- 1st paragraph page 49. IC is part of a unit
- 5th paragraph page 49. IC are "once again treated as NORMAL MEMBERS of the unit"

In each case the model is part of the unit. Therefore when asking "what is Snikrots unit" it includes all members of the unit, incuding the IC.

You have shown no rules that contradict this, just a personal bias against it. Not a valid argument.

Gwar! wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Just look at the rules for Tau stealth suits and their stealth fields, when dealing with joining units. Same thing.

Bottom line is the infiltrate rule doesn't transfer over, so he can't outflank, which means the unit can't outflank.

You seem to have missed the point and hit the barn behind it there laddy!

No-one is saying he can outflank with Ghaz. In Fact, he can't, as Ghaz doesn't have Infiltrate, so they won't be able to Outflank with Ghaz attached.

Nothing stops them using Snikrots "Ambush" rule though, so they can use it!

Whoa thanks! I had just woken up.

Ok lets see, after reading the codex...

Yes. Oddly enough it seems to work. "Snikrot and his unit" is the exact wording, and since an attached HQ is considered part of the unit the rule would confer in this case. Huh. Amazing I will have to try this. I wonder how baller I can make the unit, add in another warboss hq too? Or maybe the mad doc.

As I said Snikrot's unit are the kommandos. However the IC is not a kommando so he is not part of Snikrot's kommandos, he is simply and IC joined to the unit. The Ambush rule refers to the kommandos not an IC joining the unit.

Kommandos = Snikrot's unit
IC = separate unit that has joined the kommandos, is not a kommando

Like I said I understand why you are confused.

Sigh.

No, not confused. Your personal bias against it does not make it an invalid tactic. Your ability to change the meaning of simple English phrases doesnt make it an invalid tactic.

Your inability to counter rules quotes with anything even approaching rules, just blind assertions, doesnt make it an invalid tactic. It does make you a troll, however.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:As I said Snikrot's unit are the kommandos.

That isn't what the rules say.

Like I said I understand why you are confused.

Your condescending tone is not appreciated, for the record.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:Yes. Oddly enough it seems to work. "Snikrot and his unit" is the exact wording, and since an attached HQ is considered part of the unit the rule would confer in this case. Huh. Amazing I will have to try this. I wonder how baller I can make the unit, add in another warboss hq too? Or maybe the mad doc.

Mad Doc is too Dangerous IMO. Stick with just Ghaz imo. If you must use a 2nd IC, throw in another Mega-Warboss (since everyone has MTC, the Mega Armour isn't that much of a Hindrance) or a Warboss on a Bike to go Karting around afterwards.

Warbozz on bike, more killy at range and T6 for non-ID purposes is worth it...

@blood
Show me the passage where it says the Kommandoz are always 100% only Snikrot's unit.

@Gwar

Gwar! wrote:Your condescending tone is not appreciated, for the record.

I remember a few days ago when your condescending tone towards me wasn't appreciated.

C'mon, man - don't play that game and act all high and mighty. You do it too and you know it. You have the wits to be condescending, so it's fine - just don't act like you're above it.

I am a bit confused and would like some more info from the both of you (Gwar and Nos). Can you explain the difference between this rule and TRT (the Red Thirst).

I posted this link as to ask why this rule works on a swuad without the rule, and why TRT does not effect IC's joined to a squad?
shttp://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/316153.pageay

Also, note that you have the exact opposite opinion in the other thread. Thank you!

@Kap
It is a bit different.

Librarian's do not have the Red Thirst special rule under their codex listing.

Assault Squads do.

Although TRT is not a universal rule, the army listings help point out in this regard that ICs do not get it (since no IC in the BA codex has the thirst rule). The wording is the same - "the unit" - but the rules are different.

Snikrot is a special character that replaces the nob in a squad of kommandos. He cannot be individually targeted in close combat and works the same as a nob for close combat. So Snikrot is not an IC and as such can never join another unit, which an IC can do. So it's obvious that Snikrot's unit is the kommandos, not an IC that joins the unit as an IC is not a kommando and can never be. The mistake people are making is what they refer to as Snikrot's unit. If Snikrot was an IC then it would be different but this is clearly not the case. Pointing to the rules that discuss an IC joining other units doesn't apply here.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:So it's obvious that Snikrot's unit is the kommandos.

Do you have a rules quote to back this up? Because as several people have pointed out, this is not the case.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Snikrot is a special character that replaces the nob in a squad of kommandos. He cannot be individually targeted in close combat and works the same as a nob for close combat. So Snikrot is not an IC and as such can never join another unit, which an IC can do. So it's obvious that Snikrot's unit is the kommandos, not an IC that joins the unit as an IC is not a kommando and can never be. The mistake people are making is what they refer to as Snikrot's unit. If Snikrot was an IC then it would be different but this is clearly not the case. Pointing to the rules that discuss an IC joining other units doesn't apply here.

A Painboy is a special character that replaces the nob in a squad of Nobz and Flash Gitz. He cannot be individually targeted in close combat and works the same as a nob for close combat. So the Painboy is not an IC and as such can never join another unit, which an IC can do. So it's obvious that Painboys's unit is the Nobz/Flash Gitz, not an IC that joins the unit as an IC is not a Nob/Flash Git can never be. The mistake people are making is what they refer to the Painboy's unit. If the Painboy was an IC then it would be different but this is clearly not the case. Pointing to the rules that discuss an IC joining other units doesn't apply here.

Oh wait... I want FNP on my warboss...

'His unit' works the same if it is an attached IC or an upgrade char. Skyleap includes ICs, why wouldn't Ambush? Doks Tools include attached ICs. It is all or nothing. At no point is 'his unit' limited to the unit an UG character was bought with, if that was the case we would have no FNP for ICs and No Skyleaping either.

The issue regarding a painboy and conferring FNP has also been hotly debated which can be found using the search function. Looks like there were two schools of thought on that one as well. As noted the painboy is not an IC but then again it is neither a special character.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Snikrot is a special character that replaces the nob in a squad of kommandos. He cannot be individually targeted in close combat and works the same as a nob for close combat. So Snikrot is not an IC and as such can never join another unit, which an IC can do.

All entirely irrlevant to the statement "his unit"

BloodThirSTAR wrote:So it's obvious that Snikrot's unit is the kommandos,

Please provide a rulesquote, as Engish disagrees with you there.

not an IC

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The mistake people are making is what they refer to as Snikrot's unit. If Snikrot was an IC then it would be different but this is clearly not the case. Pointing to the rules that discuss an IC joining other units doesn't apply here.

We are not making a mistake here, your personal bias shows in your illogical argument.

I swear this entire thread keeps going because one person got his little models slapped around because someone used gaz in the kommando unit of surprise.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The issue regarding a painboy and conferring FNP has also been hotly debated which can be found using the search function. Looks like there were two schools of thought on that one as well. As noted the painboy is not an IC but then again it is neither a special character.

Please show where upgrade characters like Excharchs and Painboys apply 'HIS unit' to ICs and special characters follow a whole different level of applying the term 'HIS unit'.

If the way the model is upgraded is the issue then there must be a section in the rulebook that clearly details this difference right?

I have yet to see anything that makes special characters and Wargear 'his unit' work differently from upgrade characters.

There isnt, which is the point.

The poster doesnt like the legal tactic, so is at the point of making stuff up to pretend it doesnt work.