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lucasbuffalo wrote:But to say that a person's army is a direct representation of themselves or their character is a childish move used here by attempted internet superheroes.

I don't think anyone's said that it is. I know that I've said people will assume it is. I would assume it was, if some dude were to talk into a store and plop down a 40K themed army painted like Nazis. I'd think the same if someone threw down a 40K army painted like the Klan. I'm pretty sure that the average person would think the same about someone needlessly choosing a theme that's so controversial.

You're more than welcome to hold the opinion that slapping things with Nazi iconography is no big deal, just as I'm more than welcome to be glad I don't game with you.


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asimo77 wrote:WWII was 70 years ago, running to someone directly involved in it it's pretty small I would think. especially in a hobby store no less. Of course the symbol still means things to young people too, but I don't think anyone's going to have a PTSD flashback around your doodz.

Depends. I'm good friends with a guy whose grandfather was killed at Sobibor. Would he have a "PTSD flashback"? No. Would he take issue with it? Yes.

Would you be as confident supporting it in person as you are on the internet if faced with such an individual? I highly doubt it.

I think the general uniform colours and, if you're good at modeling, especially the helmet type would be okay.

However, I'd recommend stopping at the armbands. Clothes, helmet and weapons are just tools and equipment that were incidentally made by Nazi Germany and worn by the Wehrmacht. The armbands though...they are a symbol of Nazism and have no other use than showing this to everyone. If you just want the look and not the ideology behind it, I would therefore refrain from armbands, swastikas and preferrably the SS runes, too.

On a personal note: If I'd see a Nazi IG army, complete with Swastikas, I'd wince instinctively. Yeah, it's only a game and it's fictional and all, but it would still just seem...wrong to me. The only way I think it's allright to use Nazi iconography is when making fun of them, ridiculing them for their madness to ease the pain of what they have done to the world. Again, here in America it's comparably "far away". But in Europe, it would definitely be different. Absolutely NO one in Germany in their right mind would show themselves with Nazi iconography or the Hitler salute (apart from the neo-nazi idiots, of course), because we know what is associated with it, what it stands for. And I guess the French, British, Polish and all other people there wouldn't be pleased on average, either.

Using these symbols on an army for a game...it's not ridiculing them, it's more of solidarizing with them. I wouldn't do it and I don't think using the symbols is a good idea. Uniform colours and armor styles I'm fine with, though.


Postscriptum: Maybe ask yourself what you would think about a very openly Taliban/Al Qaeda themed army. That's the next best thing I could come up with for a rather recent analogy of a fraction that attacked the USA. However, what those guys did is a drop in the ocean compared to Nazi Germany...

I suppose there are people who could have relatives involved and the like, though even in the super jewish community I live in very few people have any relation to WWII, but regardless that's a valid point, though you don't have to necessarily respect anyone's feelings (but you probably should in this case).

"Would you be as confident supporting it in person as you are on the internet if faced with such an individual? I highly doubt it. "

Well I suppose I would, this is a very peculiar situation though, and I'm not sure what context off the internet it would pop-up in. Unless of course it was in a hobby shop then I guess it would be pretty much the same conversation as here. If someone came up to me asked if someone was allowed to dress up as a nazi I'd have to, say yes. But it's not a good idea. It's the BEST idea.

the really distressing thing about the whole affair is that in countries as poland, russia or france and others who suffered greatly due to nazi terrorism now have lots of fools marching in dresses around that look strikingly familiar to your intended army. the is proves only one fact, that people tend to forget cruelties comited and idolize things so horrible that you can´t even understand it. if you build your army that way it is a brick in a giant wall constantly built by forces that try to make things like auschwitz look like a lie. these forces are always in high gear and wont stop. the only thing all of us is either ridicule them or to constantly battle against them and this is meant literaly!

one minor thing to add: making a choas army and then saying the person is insanly mad and evil is like saying that someone thats looking old cartoon movies where they hit others with frieingpans and such things will cause the same in rl.
choas armies are an abstract take on a major theme in live. good and evil. this goes not with supporting forces like the nazis. when you portrai them then you wave the flag in their behalf. wether you want to or not. you just support their cause in doing so.

vik

If you want to start an IG army, and either get arrested or killed, or maybe even both if thats what excites you. Then use the SS/Nazi symbols.

However if you dont want the wrath of the world to come down on you like the foot of a Titan, then I would avoid those insignia. Use the colours as they look awesome though!

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Viktor von Domm wrote:if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

That's like saying do I feel sorry for the Mexican army when they killed everyone at the Alamo?

Or the Spaniards for slaughtering the Aztecs and bring them diseases?

Or the Native Americans, when they attacked and maimed settles?

I have descent from all of these being a Hispanic, but do you see complaining about games/media that involve this? No.

I see you're German, or at least the flag shows you're in Germany.
That's fine if you don't like it, you won't ever see it. Also I don't have the models yet, I'm asking to public how they feel about it.
Has it been does yes, and it does get mixed views.

But don't you dare, try and tell me how I should feel for others, based on my own beliefs and principles, just because you don't agree with them.

If you or anyone wants to talk to me on a more personal level take it to PM and out of the thread.

If you paint your army with swastikas on it it's like wearing a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews". You are fully in your right to wear that T-Shirt. You may even tell me that its not what the shirt says that you like, you just like the colour. Maybe you even believe that. The point is you're going out with a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews" just be aware of it.

Agreed, and don't be surprised when people react to that.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

Nazi IG? No... God no...
Why don't you just get the colour scheme and style? DKK are made this way... But absolutely avoid nazi simbols...
Maybe the jewish player you meet at your next tournament would be rightly offended, and the same shoul be said also of non-jewish people.

But I have to give my experience...
I'm painting Nazi Orks
Yes... they are nazi orks, with nobz dressed like gestapo, and a stupid warboss dressed a la hermann goering.
They fight against lesser races to gain the vital space for the Grobwaaghland (aka Grosdeutchland)

They're orribly trash, The total idiocy of nazi ideology is well represented by the fact it is transposed in brutish green stupid aliens.
But I absolutely avoid true nazi symbols (I use the two X that have been the party symbol in Charlie chaplin's the great dictator)

punkow wrote:Nazi IG? No... God no...
Why don't you just get the colour scheme and style? DKK are made this way... But absolutely avoid nazi simbols...
Maybe the jewish player you meet at your next tournament would be rightly offended, and the same shoul be said also of non-jewish people.

But I have to give my experience...
I'm painting Nazi Orks
Yes... they are nazi orks, with nobz dressed like gestapo, and a stupid warboss dressed a la hermann goering.
They fight against lesser races to gain the vital space for the Grobwaaghland (aka Grosdeutchland)

They're orribly trash, The total idiocy of nazi ideology is well represented by the fact it is transposed in brutish green stupid aliens.
But I absolutely avoid true nazi symbols (I use the two X that have been the party symbol in Charlie chaplin's the great dictator)

Well if you used the Nazi stormboyz that'd look cool too.

Also I wouldn't use a Nazi symbol on Orks, I'd maybe make and Ork-esque Nazzy Symbol like bones or snakes not sure.

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

The_Savior wrote:If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Not going to answer for Fraz, however, if someone painted a GD quality army of fully converted, highly detailed Nazi IG I would quite possibly admire the work that went into it, and the techniques that were used. However, I would not think that it was any more a good idea to do or use than someone who had a black primed IG army with giant Nazi symbols painted all over it...

And as has been pointed out before, no matter how much work you put in and how good it looks, it still does not really have a place in 40K. The vast majority of people who have Nazi themed anything (outside of historical games etc) are, to my experience, likely to be young fools looking to get a reaction by shocking people at how "daring" they are being.

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Is it just greys or blacks-great
If its got little Nazi symbols on it I'd call them a pathetic human being and vermin not fit to waste oxygen. They're like little Neo Nazis except they are losers who play with toy soldiers and want to shock people. In essence they are a zit on the butt of life. I can take solace though in that their lives would be truly so pathetic as to almost engender sympathy. Not. Then I'd point and laugh and laugh and laugh.

SilverMK2 wrote:

The_Savior wrote:If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Not going to answer for Fraz, however, if someone painted a GD quality army of fully converted, highly detailed Nazi IG I would quite possibly admire the work that went into it, and the techniques that were used. However, I would not think that it was any more a good idea to do or use than someone who had a black primed IG army with giant Nazi symbols painted all over it...

And as has been pointed out before, no matter how much work you put in and how good it looks, it still does not really have a place in 40K. The vast majority of people who have Nazi themed anything (outside of historical games etc) are, to my experience, likely to be young fools looking to get a reaction by shocking people at how "daring" they are being.

Or collectors, we can't forget about those people.

What's with this shock value thing? I'm pretty sure it isn't that shocking after the (insert number here) time.

Offensive? Yes. Quite as shocking? No.

But everyone has mixed opinions.

The intent is to shock. The effect is just to radiate LAME.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Is it just greys or blacks-great
If its got little Nazi symbols on it I'd call them a pathetic human being and vermin not fit to waste oxygen. They're like little Neo Nazis except they are losers who play with toy soldiers and want to shock people. In essence they are a zit on the butt of life. I can take solace though in that their lives would be truly so pathetic as to almost engender sympathy. Not. Then I'd point and laugh and laugh and laugh.

So if I painted an army based off my culture, would it be wrong?

Or Chaos with pentagrams, ram's head, and etc?

I'm just saying this, if it's a person's belief, you have no right to judge them based on that since it'd be wrong of course.

That's why things like the KKK are still around.

That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right?...

i know it´s probably not intersiting enough to post but i post it anyway...

in germany the hitler gruß (raised flat hand) the swastica and donnerkeil (the two lightningsymbols) and other signs and gestures and also the heil hitler slogan will definatly get you into deserved trouble. chances are with an army like that, here in good ol`germany you will get trashed officialy by police and will get dragged before court. the media would make a sloughterfest of your army and would talk endlessly about maleducated youths and also would drag out the whole killergame speach...

even if all outcome wouldn´t be to my liking, the fact that you would never see your work of hours and hours of yours back again, cause of showing forbidden signs, would be a great satisfaction. i wouln´t boast or cheer around. but i would nod and smile inwardly to a job done good and right and that for one day justice would be served...

vik

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! man I sure see a lot of sensitive posts complaining about a Nazi symbol.
I would honestly think an army like that would be cool if I seen it on the table ITS A GAME! AND A THEMED ARMY its not like he is going to run around preaching hate.


I say go for it! don't hold back for the sake of sensitive people! they will always find something to be offended by no matter what you do!

I'm perfectly allowed to judge you once you've made your beliefs clear. Saying otherwise is like that French law which said that it's discrimination to selectively hire someone on the basis that they can actually do the job.

You're right. Painting Nazi symbols on IG...once I see that I can't judge you. However, once I ask you WTF is up with that, and you say: 'Oh. I just thought it looked cool.' Then I have just as much right to judge you as if you had said: 'I think they were totally awesome and had the right ideas.'

Edit: I personally would not be extremely offended. But I have friends who have lost relatives in the Nazi camps. They would be offended. Are they just being 'sensitive'? I'm perfectly alright with the colors. That's how DKoK are MEANT to look. Hell, I'd even be alright with the double lightning bolt, just because there isn't as much meaning tied to that symbol. It's just the swastika that we're taking specific trouble with.

So if I painted an army based off my culture, would it be wrong?
***Wait, so your culture is German Nazi 1934-1944...really?


Or Chaos with pentagrams, ram's head, and etc?
***Last I saw followers of Tzeentch didn't kill 25mm -50mm Slavs.

I'm just saying this, if it's a person's belief, you have no right to judge them based on that since it'd be wrong of course.
That's why things like the KKK are still around.
***The irony of someone talking about wanting to do little toy soldier Nazis indirectly accusing others of being Klansmen is ironical. Sorry thats more your shtick, not mine.

Fantasy minis are fantasy. Keep historical reality out of it. That is hard only to understand if someone is a loser, and has no life. Frankly, such people are why we shouldn't allow little Himmler to hang out in mom's basement too long. First they do little toy Nazis, then they start goosestepping, then they venture outside in the real world and get their asses kicked, then they retreat back into the basement. See? Its a vicious cycle.

Again, if you want to use German WWII camo schemes, uniform, and vehicle colors, GREAT! Have at it. But if you want to have little goose steppers with nazi arm bands etc. you have issues, serious issues.



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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! man I sure see a lot of sensitive posts complaining about a Nazi symbol.
I would honestly think an army like that would be cool if I seen it on the table ITS A GAME! AND A THEMED ARMY its not like he is going to run around preaching hate.
****Its a FANTASY game. its not a historical recreation. Real imagery has no place there.

I say go for it! don't hold back for the sake of sensitive people! they will always find something to be offended by no matter what you do!
***You don't have a girlfriend, do you...

ChrisWWII wrote:I'm perfectly allowed to judge you once you've made your beliefs clear. Saying otherwise is like that French law which said that it's discrimination to selectively hire someone on the basis that they can actually do the job.

You're right. Painting Nazi symbols on IG...once I see that I can't judge you. However, once I ask you WTF is up with that, and you say: 'Oh. I just thought it looked cool.' Then I have just as much right to judge you as if you had said: 'I think they were totally awesome and had the right ideas.'

Edit: I personally would not be extremely offended. But I have friends who have lost relatives in the Nazi camps. They would be offended. Are they just being 'sensitive'? I'm perfectly alright with the colors. That's how DKoK are MEANT to look. Hell, I'd even be alright with the double lightning bolt, just because there isn't as much meaning tied to that symbol. It's just the swastika that we're taking specific trouble with.

That's why I asked the people around here who served in military, and the ones who I know are of European descent.

To make sure in my area it didn't affect anyone, if I made this army, I'm sure I wouldn't go and bring it outside of the shop.

My honest beliefs though, racism is wrong. But if making historically accurate models is racists then so be it. I'm playing a game with plastic models, nothing more nothing less.

@Frazz

No by culture, I meant the whole Mexican army/ Spaniard / and Native American thing. That's in an earlier post.

My honest beliefs though, racism is wrong. But if making historically accurate models is racists then so be it. I'm playing a game with plastic models, nothing more nothing less.
****How is it going to be historically accurate when you're talking guys with lasers again?
@Frazz

No by culture, I meant the whole Mexican army/ Spaniard / and Native American thing. That's in an earlier post.
****How would that be bad? I'm visualizing a Aztec Guard force of Jaguar and Eagle Warriors as Epic cool. Pancho Villa era dressed out Orks-perfect. These are not issues.
Spanish conquistador might draw some looks, but that style without the symbolism would be fine.

The_Savior wrote:
My honest beliefs though, racism is wrong. But if making historically accurate models is racists then so be it. I'm playing a game with plastic models, nothing more nothing less.

However, the point you keep on missing is that they are not historically accurate models, they are models from a fictional setting themed to look like Nazis. It would be like me starting up a Fellowship of the Rings army and giving Frodo a tash and nazi arm band "just because it looked cool".

As has been pointed out, Nazi imagery etc in historical wargames - fine, knock yourself out. In fact, if I were to start a Flames of War army I would probably play as the Germans as I think their tanks etc look a lot cooler.

Frazzled wrote:
My honest beliefs though, racism is wrong. But if making historically accurate models is racists then so be it. I'm playing a game with plastic models, nothing more nothing less.
****How is it going to be historically accurate when you're talking guys with lasers again?
@Frazz

No by culture, I meant the whole Mexican army/ Spaniard / and Native American thing. That's in an earlier post.
****How would that be bad? I'm visualizing a Aztec Guard force of Jaguar and Eagle Warriors as Epic cool. Pancho Villa era dressed out Orks-perfect. These are not issues.
Spanish conquistador might draw some looks, but that style without the symbolism would be fine.

But what would make Pancho Villa and all them fine?

I know a few people down here, who hate to know they were part of that.

Also, regardless of lasers, players have an imagination. I can pretend, I'm in a WW2 battle, however whenever a SM or Tyranid shows up that might be different. But then that makes me think of Wolfenstein.

Exactly. Historical accuracy is important only when you're playing a historical. If I were to make an early war FoW army, I'd probably put Nazi flags on the back of some tanks, just because that's historically accurate.

But 40k isn't a historical game. It has some historical themes, especially with IG armies, but it's not historically accurate in any sense of the word. That's why it's fine to paint Whermacht themed army with the grey, the Iron Cross and all that, but I draw the line at the swastika. You're not making a 'Nazi' army. You're making a WW2 themed army.

But what would make Pancho Villa and all them fine?
***Pancho Villa era. turn of the century generic bandit. Orks smoking cigars with gun belts and really big guns.
you're not identifying wqith a particular party or person. Again its generic style.


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. It has some historical themes, especially with IG armies, but it's not historically accurate in any sense of the word. That's why it's fine to paint Whermacht themed army with the grey, the Iron Cross and all that, but I draw the line at the swastika. You're not making a 'Nazi' army. You're making a WW2 themed army.

Exactly.

ChrisWWII wrote:Exactly. Historical accuracy is important only when you're playing a historical. If I were to make an early war FoW army, I'd probably put Nazi flags on the back of some tanks, just because that's historically accurate.

But 40k isn't a historical game. It has some historical themes, especially with IG armies, but it's not historically accurate in any sense of the word. That's why it's fine to paint Whermacht themed army with the grey, the Iron Cross and all that, but I draw the line at the swastika. You're not making a 'Nazi' army. You're making a WW2 themed army.

I just think it would fit in with a weird fluff to it. Like a back story, and the whole fact that everything in Warhammer is about killing the other race for the better of yours.

@Frazz

However, down here as I'm sure you and me are quite aware. We'd get that Mexican reference easier than others.
That's just Texas history however.

The_Savior wrote:
I just think it would fit in with a weird fluff to it. .

No, it would in fact do entirely the opposite and portray you as some sort of idiot who misses the point of the setting entirely. It makes you the wargaming equivalent of a guy who talks through movies explaining what's happening.

Its time too grow up and separate reality from fiction. you know what a real Nazi is? you know what a plastic figure is?
you know what a themed army is? do you know the history behind the inspiration too even create the figure?

The_Savior wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Exactly. Historical accuracy is important only when you're playing a historical. If I were to make an early war FoW army, I'd probably put Nazi flags on the back of some tanks, just because that's historically accurate.

But 40k isn't a historical game. It has some historical themes, especially with IG armies, but it's not historically accurate in any sense of the word. That's why it's fine to paint Whermacht themed army with the grey, the Iron Cross and all that, but I draw the line at the swastika. You're not making a 'Nazi' army. You're making a WW2 themed army.

I just think it would fit in with a weird fluff to it. Like a back story, and the whole fact that everything in Warhammer is about killing the other race for the better of yours.

@Frazz

However, down here as I'm sure you and me are quite aware. We'd get that Mexican reference easier than others.
That's just Texas history however.

Wait are you talking like Santa Anna's army? Cool uniform colors. Thats generic 1800s army unless you do other things to it.