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The Deciever, he always gets the charge

shrike wrote:
Sanguinor- maybe (dunno the rules,but he seems to have the equivalent of 2 LCs in combat- the IF will survive and ID him.

Hard to ID a guy with Eternal Warrior.

Honestly, I'm not sure there's an IC out there that CAN take Sanguinor 1v1, as long as Sangy chose him for his rerolls.

he may indeed be the king of the hill..... dont know about the c'tan havent looked at that book since it came out....

the sanguinor might be able to take him bc he has an invulnerable save, higher initiative, ablative wounds, can mess with the sanguinor and makes him reroll that mighty 3++. It will take the sanguinor a while to carve through his tyrant guard.

shrike wrote:
Wait! Zogwort! He is the only 1-man-unit that can consistently kill lysander. If the ork player rolls higher than the SM player- poof. Lysander's a squig. Which then gets eaten by zogwort.

Other than the about a dozen guys already listed in this thread (which you clearly haven't read since it included Zogwort).

And about the Sanquinor. He loses to the C'tan since he's got no save and can barely hurt them. C'tan only lose to instant death weapons that go first (or other JotWW tricks).

AbaddonFidelis wrote:he may indeed be the king of the hill..... dont know about the c'tan havent looked at that book since it came out....

the swarmlord might be able to take him bc he has an invulnerable save, higher initiative, ablative wounds, can mess with the sanguinor and makes him reroll that mighty 3++. It will take the sanguinor a while to carve through his tyrant guard.

Fixed.

And yeah. Swarmlord can do it. On his own, and without breaking a sweat.

He's hitting on 3s, re-rolling. Wounding on 2s, and forcing the Sanguinor to re-roll successful Invulnerable saves.

Sanguinor is hitting on 4s, re-rolling. Wounding on 5s, re-rolling. And the Swarmlord gets his 4+ Invulnerable save.

herp derp. thanks for fixing that.

The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

That looks pretty biased for the Sanguanor. You can't just give one character the charge and not the other.

Im sure The sanguanor would win, but not as easily as you made it seem. Also, he would take wounds, he is not gonna pass every save.

scubasteve04 wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

That looks pretty biased for the Sanguanor. You can't just give one character the charge and not the other.

Im sure The sanguanor would win, but not as easily as you made it seem. Also, he would take wounds, he is not gonna pass every save.

Yeah, over two rounds you have the Sanguinor passing 4 3++ saves. He should at least have one wound on him. If your going to mathhammer you just have to use raw data with fractions to get a real account of what happens. Even with rerolls its doubtful that the sanquinor would hit all 6 times. Real mathhammer has him hitting 5.3 times. So, just using the conventions of rounding things to the nearest hole number that gives him 5 hits, not 6.

In real game terms assuming the Sanguinor gets the charge is probably fair enough, he does have a significant mobility advantage after all. For the sake of Mathhammer arguments like these though it tends to be best to assumed that either both sides count as charging or neither do (or work out the results for both situations). It all come down to the dice though, I killed Lysander yesterday in a single round with 6 Harliequins (admittedly he was Doomed and the Fusion Pistol got a wound as well).

Anything with less than T6 or without Eternal Warrior needs to be removed from the list though, many people seem to be forgetting that Lysander is S10 and going to squash people flat in one hit (so working out that someone loses .36 wounds per turn is inaccurate as 1 failed save = dead).

Calgar vs Lysander would be good,

C'tan vs most things are meh

Swarmlord would be amusing to see

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

So, to fix that:

Sanguinor: 5 attacks, 4.44 hits, 4.32 wounds, 1.44 unsaved

Lysander: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.42 unsaved

Sanguinor still wins in the 3rd round, but it's not quite as drastic as you make it out to be.

Of course, this is assuming Sanguinor chose Lysander as his target (probably the right tactical choice). Just for fun, if he didn't:

Sanguinor: 5 attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.77 wounds, 0.925 unsaved

Lysander: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.42 unsaved

Here, Sanguinor kills Lysander on round 4 or 5. He still should survive.

scubasteve04 wrote:Goin off pure memory (I don't know all the codexs), here are all the ICs/SCs/MCs/Walkers that Lysander can own in 1 on 1:
eldar autarch
Farseer

I don't understand why these two options are there.
We can assume they take gear against him right?
If they take a Jetbike...they will never get into combat with lysander...and can shoot him at 12" away, then slide away in the charging phase to be ~17" away from him.
He can move/run a max of 12"...then the jetbike moves 7" away, shoots some more, then slides another 6" resulting in being 13" away.

...

Or is the original thought experiment assuming they are in combat with one another?<---Cause that does not work very well, as it takes out 'balances' to the whole issue...(aka you want a particular party to 'win' this and are setting them up to...).

Sanctjud wrote:
Or is the original thought experiment assuming they are in combat with one another?<---Cause that does not work very well, as it takes out 'balances' to the whole issue...(aka you want a particular party to 'win' this and are setting them up to...).

Yeah, that's the question. You have 2 models (one being Lysander) locked in CC together, both having been completely untouched before this turn.

It is taking Lysander's weaknesses and ignoring them, and taking away other model's strengths, but them's the breaks.

But even with this advantage, Lysander still looses to tons of models.

There was a thread before where Special Characters duked it out, consisting of the likes of Logan, Abbadon, Ghazzy, Calgar, LYSANDER, Skull Taker w/ Chariot etc. and it'd be pretty consistently Abbadon first, with Ghazzy close behind. Whilst Calgar and Lysander were about 50/50 and Logan and Skull taker lost. A lot.

As such, I'd say the list currently to be:
(close combat for at-least one turn)

- Abbadon
- Ghazzy
- Nightbringer
- Deciever
- Sanguinor
- Swarmlord
- Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf w/ Saga of Bear and other goodies
- Calgar (potentially)
- Vect
- Avatar(?)
- Grey Knight Grand Master
- ??

What is vect's profile again? I'm interested to see...

A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.

Bloodthirster: 5*(2/3)*(5/6)*(1/3)=.925925...

Lysander: 3*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/2)=.625

Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fateweaver could make it work, too, given that his rerollable 3+ save mans that only 1/9 of wounds hit home. His relatively poor statline also pretty much negate Lysander's advantages. The Boon of Mutation is what kills him, though, not attacks, which basically never hit home:

Fateweaver: 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*(1/3) =.222...

Lysander: 3*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/9)=.1388...

Whereas the boon of mutation kills Lysander on average in three turns. Lysander's chance of even inflicting a wound before that happens are less than 50%.

MekanobSamael wrote:A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.

Bloodthirster: 5*(2/3)*(5/6)*(1/3)=.925925...

Lysander: 3*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/2)=.625

Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.

Good point. I think the same logic applies to the Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean One, Avatar...

It seems most MC with an Invul save can take him out pretty easily.

After sitting here and rolling dice for a while, it seems Vect just dismantles the guy in two turns, on average. Lysander's 3 attacks just don't cut it in the end, but vects 6 attacks eventually kills the guy. Even with Lysander charging, which will never happen, Vect just laughs his 4 attacks off.

I am not saying one is always better than the other, but after doing 8 combats with them both, Vect has won every single combat. That may not be scientific enough for most, but that works for me.

Grakmar wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.
...
Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.

Good point. I think the same logic applies to the Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean One, Avatar...
It seems most MC with an Invul save can take him out pretty easily.

It's almost as if someone said this on the first page.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.
...
Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.

Good point. I think the same logic applies to the Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean One, Avatar...
It seems most MC with an Invul save can take him out pretty easily.

It's almost as if someone said this on the first page.

That was 4 pages and 2 days ago! You can't expect me to remember things from the distant past!

ZOGWORT!

I wonder, does a Tervigon count as one character even if it starts by spawning a bunch of (boosted) termagants? And could it come even close to winning even with spawns?

A Tervigon creates 21 Termagants on average. A Tervigon, with the usual upgrades, and 21 Termagants would annihilate Lysander.

Arguably 1 on 1 though.

I think the Tervigon could eat Lysander even if Lysander got the first turn and the tervigon only was allowed to start spawning in her own turn.

Lys turn:
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w. (say 2.2w on the charge)
Tervigon does 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wounds, 0.33 failed saves.

Terv turn:
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w
an average of 10.5 newly created termagants, assaulting for 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 7.875 wounds, ~1.31 failed saves.
Terv does 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wounds, 0.33 failed saves.

Lys turn:
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w
10.5 no longer Furious Charging termagants do 10.5 attacks, 5.25 hits, 2.62w, 0.43 failed saves.
Terv does 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wounds, 0.33 failed saves.

By now Lysander has lost roughly 2.74 wounds.
Tervigon has lost 5 wounds. (5.5 if Lysander got the charge)

Terv turn: (lets assume the terv rolled a double spawndice last turn)
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w Tervigon dead. The death effect does 10.5 s3 hits on the termagants, kills 4.375 of them.
6.125 Termagants does 6.125 attacks, ~3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.25 failed save.
Termagants loose battle with some margin, no synapse so flees with no real chance of rallying. Lysander has on average 0.01 wounds left.

That's pretty much a draw after four turns of combat. If the tervigon is allowed to spawn it's second turn there will be another 5.25 termagants doing 10.5 Furious assault attacks for 0.66 more wounds. So a minor victory for the tyranids, but not for the Tervigon :-)

Don't forget that the Tervigon also has to take fearless wounds for losing by about 1 wound a turn.

Vect would eat lysander

Vects hits of 3 and wounds on 3
and he has some other nasty goodness too i forget..

i dont have the codex infront of me....
same with Leilith she would eat him to... whats his WS

6 she gets 3 extra attack just by that plus all the other ones too...

I see mention of grey knight gm but not stern. I killed lysander and Cassius with stern in a single game. Stern is S6 with force weapon and has strands of fate for rerolls. I think he could repeat the feat more times than not.

the tyrvigon could run out of little breedy bugs at any time... lysander isnt going to run out of thunder hammer attacks. terminators and ICs stand up to volume of attack units like termagants and ork boyz alot better than I think they're generally given credit for. because they take so few casualties they usually force the other side to take break tests/no retreat wounds, even when point for point the other side is winning. fearless units like orks end up taking 2 or 3 of these casualties every assault phase. once they get down to around 20 guys and dont have the charge anymore they just melt away, because then they are hardly inflicting any casualties at all but the terminators are still going strong. AF

StarGate wrote:Vect would eat lysander

Vects hits of 3 and wounds on 3
and he has some other nasty goodness too i forget..

i dont have the codex infront of me....
same with Leilith she would eat him to... whats his WS

6 she gets 3 extra attack just by that plus all the other ones too...

I don't think Lelith could kill Lysander without some luck on her side.

Vect can do it because he has 7 attacks on the charge, re rolls misses while hitting on 3's, and always wounds on 3's. It is his 2++ save that will keep Vect alive against Lysanders, on average, single wound. Lelith 'only' has a 3++ save, so if Lysander can get a wound or two on her, I think it is lights out for her, especially since she is wounding him on 5's.