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Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:

I'm not sure your example really makes your point. 25% more isn't exactly 'the same price'... and I'm not seeing any particularly outstanding difference in quality between those two sets.

Privateer's quality has always been a little variable, due to the limitations of metal models. Overall, I would put them at about the same level as GW.

Kilkrazy wrote:Nowadays, historical metal figures are about £1 to £1.50. Citadel 40K metal figures are a minimum of £2.50. GW’s cheapest plastic figures are about £1.20 each. Historical plastic figures are about 35 to 40p each.

Although it's worth noting that a lot of those historicals are the same figures that were available 30 years ago...

While a lot of new stuff has come onto the market, the historicals tend to be either sold indefinitely or recycled as moulds change hands ... historical gamers tend to be not as picky about quality, so there's no real reason to update.

Well, since I'm currently paying about $75 a week merely in keeping the spawn clothed and fed, I think GW is a heck of a great deal.

Sure I may only buy 1 or 2 boxes every couple of months, but it's cheap compared to the little one. (or SWMBO's shoe habit).

Nicely relative biicat

I agree GW needs to make money, but they seem to have become a little too comfortable with their place in the wargaming community. There is real competition out there, I still love 40k but recently have picked up warmahordes. I wanted to build another army but didn't feel like spending another arm and leg to do it considering my daemon army ran close to $1000.

The rule system I think is better and more action packed, model quality is up there and improving with the new plastics which also is bringing the price down. Small point games mean you can easily play multiple armies and not burn through your wallet. It's hard to really justify the price anymore in my opinion.

Ratius wrote:Nicely relative biccat

Thanks

I can't really gauge how this impacts others, 'cause I don't know how those others spend their cash. When I was in college, instead of going out boozing every weekend, I hung out with friends and bought some models.

Yeah, prices have gone up, but I'm also making a lot more money (compared to none). So from a cost/income ratio, I'm way ahead of the curve.

Spawn notwithstanding.

Crom wrote:Then again, something is worth what someone is willing to pay.

And this is what it all comes down to. I'm not willing to pay. Many other people on this thread are not willing to pay. Judging by GWs financial reports, lots of people all over the world are not willing to pay.

Make of that what you will.

I've become a lot more canny with my buying -- I'll buy from eBay; I bought about £250 of tyranid stuff from an online discounter just over a year ago, before the first VAT increase; I bought about £50 of tyranid stuff just before GW's summer price increase; and I've had £20 of dark eldar stuff this year but am contemplating trying to convert most of the rest (beasts, vehicles) from non-GW sources.

insaniak wrote:

Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:

I'm not sure your example really makes your point. 25% more isn't exactly 'the same price'... and I'm not seeing any particularly outstanding difference in quality between those two sets.

Privateer's quality has always been a little variable, due to the limitations of metal models. Overall, I would put them at about the same level as GW.

Kilkrazy wrote:Nowadays, historical metal figures are about £1 to £1.50. Citadel 40K metal figures are a minimum of £2.50. GW’s cheapest plastic figures are about £1.20 each. Historical plastic figures are about 35 to 40p each.

Although it's worth noting that a lot of those historicals are the same figures that were available 30 years ago...

While a lot of new stuff has come onto the market, the historicals tend to be either sold indefinitely or recycled as moulds change hands ... historical gamers tend to be not as picky about quality, so there's no real reason to update.

RAZORGOR!!

Some are and others aren't. Wargames Foundry and Perry Brothers are good examples (both GW spin-offs, interestingly) where quality is excellent while pricing is competitive.

(Some of the old historicals are beautiful models even by modern standards. It depends who sculpted them.)

Anyway, we are talking about raw price, not price/quality tradeoff.

Another part of the problem with GW is that you have to spend such a lot of money on books.

insaniak wrote:
historical gamers tend to be not as picky about quality, so there's no real reason to update.

So you dont know any historical gamers then or indeed the historical companies? The Perrys release huge numbers of new models as do all companies. Moulds are also consistently remade and replaced.

Please dont talk crap, I have been playing both historicals and GW games since 1984 there have been high levels of quality in both since then. Alot of Historical gamers are way more picky than any GW gamers... I have seen arguements over whether Greek 6th century BC figures have the right style sandals sculpted on... Quality remains paramount to the majority of gamers... Its why the Perry twins are consistently seen as the standard by which every other sculpter is marked.

If you think that the Perry twins had no quality 30 years ago, then you clearly aint really qualified to comment.

Of course, there is a section on gamers, both historical and fantasy/sci-fi, for whom quality is no issue... hence why Wargames Factory managed to sell something.

Big P, if you can't respond to somebody having a differing opinion to your own in a civil fashion, I would recommend that you think twice before posting further.

I never said that the Perrys were poor quality, nor that there were no quality historical miniatures 30 years ago. Nor did I make any comment on the pickiness of historical gamers where historical accuracy is concerned.

Obsessing over whether or not a model has historically correct equipment, and obsessing over whether or not the miniature is brilliantly sculpted are not the same thing.

Yes, some historical companies produce brilliant product. A lot don't... and the models sell anyway, if they're cheap. The obvious conclusion (that historical gamers don't care as much about quality of sculpting) is also borne out by comments I've come across from various sculptors over the years about how hard it is to make money sculpting historicals, due to most of the historical miniatures companies being far more concerned with price than about quality.

That is changing, pushed no doubt at least in part by the work of people like the Perrys... But there's still a long way to go.

The problem I have...is the Competitors offer absolutely zero for me. I can't find a competitor that offers cheaper units that could be stand ins for an Inquisition army (or of the Ordo Militants) Nothing the other companies do looks quite grimdark enough (or of a reasonable quality) to fit into an Inquisitorial Retinue or as an Inquisitor.

Since Competitors offer nothing for me; and no conversion bits that actually fit in with the theme...why spend money on them?

Thats probably why I'll stick with GW's models.

As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.

I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.

I reckon they will crash and burn if they don't lower the prices in a few years.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:The problem I have...is the Competitors offer absolutely zero for me. I can't find a competitor that offers cheaper units that could be stand ins for an Inquisition army (or of the Ordo Militants) Nothing the other companies do looks quite grimdark enough (or of a reasonable quality) to fit into an Inquisitorial Retinue or as an Inquisitor.

Since Competitors offer nothing for me; and no conversion bits that actually fit in with the theme...why spend money on them?

Thats probably why I'll stick with GW's models.

+1

I haven't been able to find any alternatives for a futuristic wargame i can play instead. Or an alternate model line i can buy.

NAVARRO wrote:As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.

I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.

This will vary from community to community. I've seen really fantastic historical
armies, and I've seen some of the pics of stuff posted in Miniatures Wargaming
Magazine. People on dakka can paint better than some of that that, but I'm sure
there are historical hobbyists who blow us all away.

I just don't think there's necessarily a larger gap between them and us.

Either they hate their customers or hate makin money so they raise their prices so people won't buy from them.

malfred wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.

I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.

This will vary from community to community. I've seen really fantastic historical
armies, and I've seen some of the pics of stuff posted in Miniatures Wargaming
Magazine. People on dakka can paint better than some of that that, but I'm sure
there are historical hobbyists who blow us all away.

I just don't think there's necessarily a larger gap between them and us.

Thinking of it I think your right, I mostly seen european historical expos coverages... but they have been painting some techniques for much longer than us... pigments for one.
I think that the tendencie is that quality is not exclusive to just one side of this such big hobby and a good formula on one side will be assimilated by another ( see how people now are all using pigments on fantasy).
Maybe the gap is not as big as before and is closing... or maybe there never was a gap in your region to begin with... Point is Historical people also have high quality standarts.

Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:

Why do you choose such an old GW kit and line it up against a new PP kit?

Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW

I've noted an interesting dynamic at GW. Target age child, about 13 years old, male:female about 70:30, sees the minis and drags mom or dad into the store. A demo game is run, kid is in love. You can see it. Then the price discussion begins. You can see mom's/dad's thoughts clearly on their face: A starter set is $100, and you need to by the paint, glue, tools, too? WTF? You want HOW MUCH for TOYS????

Mom or dad have no concept of sculpting skill, GW economies, mold costs, or any other of the sorry excuses we hear all the time. The product simply doesn't justify the cost. So mom or dad walk the kid out, promising yes, they'll come back, but they never do.

The most heartbreaking example was a little girl who came in and went through this whole scenario. After she and Dad left, she came back and said, "My dad gave me $10! What can I get???" Nothing. Not a single thing. She was told she could put the $10 on a gift card and save up. She refused because it is silly. If she were already a fan, sure, it would make sense. But not knowing anything about it, they look like toys. Why save up for these toys when you can get a bag of army men or plastic dinosaurs for $3-$5?

The whole pricing thing makes sense for people who care enough to learn what the product is. It makes no sense at all to the random folks on the street. Because they are JUST TOYS.
Even hyper rich upper class parents don't like frivolously wasting money on overpriced crap toys. They're not even painted? WTF? One parent had this discussion with me the other day. And I tried to talk about the time spent modeling, painting, playing- not relevant. They also walked out, not buying anything. The response: that is too much for a toy.

This disconnect with the market is the problem I see. Either GW products are toys to be marketed to children, in which case they must be priced to compete with all the mass produced crap out there. OR, they are specialty products for the dedicated hobbiest. Like model trains, scuba diving, paintball, etc. If they are the first, then sure, turn and burn away. If they are the second, then the turn and burn business model doesn't make sense. The second model (lifelong hobby) requires expecting your customers to notice that the exact same Army Book /Codex that has been sitting on the shelf for years went from $22, to $25, to $29 in a couple of years. What customer wouldn't feel insulted by that, and balk at spending?

So yes, I think something is broken in the GW business model, at least here in the States. The customer is not spoiled little Jimmy with the brainless '50's housewife mom who has no concept of money. Most of the customers are college age or older, and most stay around for years. Until they can't justify the cost anymore or otherwise lose interest.

Note: this is my observation of how random folks off the street view GW, not intended to bash any of us vets. We all have different issues than the stranger off the street. We understand what is trying to be communicated by "GW is the Porsche of mini-wargaming." To random folks off the street, GW is overpriced crap. Trying to say, "hey its like a Porsche" is irrelevant to people who don't care about that sort of thing.

malfred wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.

I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.

This will vary from community to community. I've seen really fantastic historical
armies, and I've seen some of the pics of stuff posted in Miniatures Wargaming
Magazine. People on dakka can paint better than some of that that, but I'm sure
there are historical hobbyists who blow us all away.

I just don't think there's necessarily a larger gap between them and us.

It's a bit sad to talk about them and us.

There is a limit to just how well anyone can paint a 28mm figure, no matter what their skill level.

40K is nice for painting because the models are larger than that scale.

Historicals offers 54mm for a small range of armies but 25/28mm and 15mm are the most common scales.

Wargamers aren't necessarily interested in the quality of each model. They need to get large forces out on the tabletop quickly.

Yakface's and my Tyranids are a good contrast in that respect. His models are nicer than mine, and he needs weeks per unit because of the time it takes to do the detail. I got a 2,000+ point force converted, painted and in action with four months work, by using speed techniques.


Navarro may be thinking of the long time tradition of military modelling, which is related to wargaming but not the same thing. A lot of military modellers work on 1/35th (54mm) as the smallest scale they use. 75mm and 120mm scale models are available which allow for fantastic detail.

I just don't think that the Porsche defence will work for GW. The reason is that many of their products are definitely not Porches, the Razorgor picture from a few pages back drove the point home. Porsche would not put their name on a substandard automobile. Evidently, GW has no problem with putting its name on substandard miniatures. Veterans know the difference between good and bad minis and thus GW's propaganda does not wash with them. Newbs don't know the difference. However, they would just as well buy a bag of army men because it is much cheaper.

The problem is more acute for gamers than collectors/painters, as the former are 'forced' to use the terrible miniatures because of the rules, while the latter can cherry pick the best models. Unfortunately for GW, the hard core gamers don't really care what they are playing with, so if there is a cheaper alternative they will use it. A good example are the proxies of Dark Eldar Warp Beasts that everyone is planning on using. Many other gamers are using unit filler and other means of saving cash.

One of the recent comments made was that there was no substitute for GWs grim dark stuff. I think that this, along with the established player base is what is keeping GW afloat. I agree with you, that I have not seen suitable Inquisitorial model substitutes. On the other hand there are other grim dark settings, such as Malifaux, it is just not sci fi. Personally I find plenty of grim darkness in historical settings, do you think that GW created Gothic stuff themselves?

Gymnogyps wrote:I've noted an interesting dynamic at GW. Target age child....

You pretty much sum up my observations from the last ten years. I don't get the increasing focus on tweens when the pricing structure remains as-is. There seems to be some confusion at GW because companies like PP are actually eking out some market share, and GW is so used to being the big man on campus. I'm sure they'll straighten up their house, as I really do love the company and the product, I'm just hoping that it will happen sooner rather than later.

IMO GW's problem isn't prices per se. There are many more expensive hobbies. The problem is perceived value. The new Ravener kit drove this home for me. You figure two of those kits -- nice models but smallish, and completely ordinary sculpts compared to the recent DE, etc. -- will run you almost $100 with tax.

I'm just not feeling $100 in value from those particular six plastic miniatures.

Gymnogyps wrote:Target age child, about 13 years old, male:female about 70:30...

Really? That's seems rather optimistic, GW do very little to encourage female customers. They don't produce figures that attempt to appeal to women, like how about some decent female figures and creating a positive atmosphere in the stores where women are not oggled by customers or patronised by staff.

Roleplayer wrote:

Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:

Why do you choose such an old GW kit and line it up against a new PP kit?

Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW

For nearly $20 more than the Invictors.

Roleplayer wrote:
Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW

Yeah, those nipples stand right our there and say "hi", don't they?

agnosto wrote:

Roleplayer wrote:
Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW

Yeah, those nipples stand right our there and say "hi", don't they?

I love that detail on the sanguinary guard kit. Conjuring images of the types of armor the ancient greeks/romans used to use. It is very grim/gothic/artsy sxtyle to me, fitting perfectly in with the Blood Angels.

Just because you personally dont enjoy a particular style choice, doesnt make the minis uncool.

But I dont see why you even got to compare the two, play what you like. I tried PP for example, bought a bunch of Khador. The models were pretty cool, but I really hated the PP rules system and style of play (I prefer focusing on fluff/story then competative play) so it waasn't for me and recently sold all my PP stuff on ebay.

I buy all my products from Wayland Games, which makes GW prices not so bad at all, really, and I much prefer highly poseable plastic to single pose metal. Plus GW fluff is way better than any other kind of fluff out there atm, and nothing else even slightly puls my interest. I've been involved in the GW fluff since like 1989 so nothing is ever going to be as cool to me.

Do I have issues with GW prices? of course. I think they are overpriced. I dont think PP is amazingly priced either. I think they both overcharge, but that's just life.

I just dont think you can call GW out on quality. If there is one thing GW are #1 at in this industry it is the quality and detail of their models.

I think GW is dying a protracted death here in Japan. They closed the Chiba GW last year and now even the independent retailers that I would go to now have less and less product on the shelves.

Japan's 'nerdom', unlike the West's, is dominated by anime and any small facet it might create. Ever heard of Ke-ro-ro gunso? It's a comic/cartoon about frog's that pilot Frog Mechs. Even though it isn't considered 'popular' here, it totally out strips anything compared to GW. GW totally dropped the ball and then buried it by accident when they started here. They went after the wrong type of nerds by putting their stores in the centre of Tokyo where the more intellectual nerds are rather than the gaming nerds frequent.

JOHIRA wrote:

Crom wrote:Then again, something is worth what someone is willing to pay.

And this is what it all comes down to. I'm not willing to pay. Many other people on this thread are not willing to pay. Judging by GWs financial reports, lots of people all over the world are not willing to pay.

Make of that what you will.

I have been out of the gaming world for a long time. However, it seems to me that GW almost went under with the exception of LOTR game they came out with, which saved them during the whole LOTR movies and merch boom a few years back. Then GW re-evaluates the situation and improves and goes back to the basics.

Where can you view their financial reports?

On a side note, are you guys that are posting from Japan, originally from Japan? Maybe GW is just more of a western culture type thing? So, perhaps the market is different. Do GW figs cost more in Asia?

Gymnogyps wrote:I've noted an interesting dynamic at GW. Target age child, about 13 years old, male:female about 70:30, sees the minis and drags mom or dad into the store. A demo game is run, kid is in love. You can see it. Then the price discussion begins. You can see mom's/dad's thoughts clearly on their face: A starter set is $100, and you need to by the paint, glue, tools, too? WTF? You want HOW MUCH for TOYS????

Mom or dad have no concept of sculpting skill, GW economies, mold costs, or any other of the sorry excuses we hear all the time. The product simply doesn't justify the cost. So mom or dad walk the kid out, promising yes, they'll come back, but they never do.

The most heartbreaking example was a little girl who came in and went through this whole scenario. After she and Dad left, she came back and said, "My dad gave me $10! What can I get???" Nothing. Not a single thing. She was told she could put the $10 on a gift card and save up. She refused because it is silly. If she were already a fan, sure, it would make sense. But not knowing anything about it, they look like toys. Why save up for these toys when you can get a bag of army men or plastic dinosaurs for $3-$5?

The whole pricing thing makes sense for people who care enough to learn what the product is. It makes no sense at all to the random folks on the street. Because they are JUST TOYS.
Even hyper rich upper class parents don't like frivolously wasting money on overpriced crap toys. They're not even painted? WTF? One parent had this discussion with me the other day. And I tried to talk about the time spent modeling, painting, playing- not relevant. They also walked out, not buying anything. The response: that is too much for a toy.

This disconnect with the market is the problem I see. Either GW products are toys to be marketed to children, in which case they must be priced to compete with all the mass produced crap out there. OR, they are specialty products for the dedicated hobbiest. Like model trains, scuba diving, paintball, etc. If they are the first, then sure, turn and burn away. If they are the second, then the turn and burn business model doesn't make sense. The second model (lifelong hobby) requires expecting your customers to notice that the exact same Army Book /Codex that has been sitting on the shelf for years went from $22, to $25, to $29 in a couple of years. What customer wouldn't feel insulted by that, and balk at spending?

So yes, I think something is broken in the GW business model, at least here in the States. The customer is not spoiled little Jimmy with the brainless '50's housewife mom who has no concept of money. Most of the customers are college age or older, and most stay around for years. Until they can't justify the cost anymore or otherwise lose interest.

Note: this is my observation of how random folks off the street view GW, not intended to bash any of us vets. We all have different issues than the stranger off the street. We understand what is trying to be communicated by "GW is the Porsche of mini-wargaming." To random folks off the street, GW is overpriced crap. Trying to say, "hey its like a Porsche" is irrelevant to people who don't care about that sort of thing.

That story really strikes a chord: some weeks ago, I was at my FLGS and the guy manning the counter asked me to help him with some customers that had questions about Warhammer 40k (he doesn't play it himself). It was a father, his daughter (maybe 13-14) and son (11-12), each interested in a different army. I could almost see the amazement in his eyes that having 3 people get into this hobby wasn't a few twenties, but rather would be hundreds of dollars just for unpainted, unassembled models. In the end he walked out with a starter set, and we have never seen them again.

Beyond that, the thing that really struck me as "Really? GW Really did that?" moment was the new fantasy starter set. I picked it up because I liked the models, then promptly put it on the shelf. Some months later my nephew, who I think could easily get into the game, was coming over and I pulled out the set, thinking it might be a good way to introduce him to the game, you know, what with it being a starter set and all.

That's when I realized, that despite High Elves and Skaven both being armies with army-wide, faction-defining special rules, there was no set of sample rules in there to actually allow you to play the game in the box! You have to buy the High Elf and Skaven Army books in order to use the starter set in anything like a balanced fashion (well, as balanced as it can ever be when one army is low leadership, and the other side has a terror causing flying monster!). So, that $99 box intended to get you into the hobby certainly serves to let you know how you'll be getting rolled, once you realize you need 2 additional, $30 books.

Crom wrote:

Where can you view their financial reports?

GW's financial reports are available in the Investor Relations section of their web site.