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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:18:45
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:since the names have no bearing on the rules.
Text please. editing to add: Not yours. P.7 "has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics" A name is not a value As for your sig? how are Identical twins the same person? Identical things can be different people.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:20:22
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:20:38
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:since the names have no bearing on the rules.
Text please.
editing to add:
Not yours.
P.7
"has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"
A name is not a value
You are so correct that it pains me to correct your ignorance.
The profile does contain a list of its characteristics.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:25:08
Subject: wound allocation
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think that this grey area might actually be considered covered by Games Workshop. These models may have acted differently over the course of the game, by firing a combi weapon or something even rarer like the burnas having two possible uses.
I would say, that the 'status' of wargear is irrelivent, unless it was a situation with a squadron, in which a vehicle which has suffed a weapon destroyed result. In this situation the wargear is gone, so I think most people are happy to call apples oranges here. A collaery would be infantry with One-Shot weapons, once these have been used they are gone too.
But with the combi/burnas, the only difference is the status of the weapon, both weapons are still there on the model. A Combibolterthingo doesn't dissappear and the name doesn't change. Same with a burna the name doesn't change, just it's use, it's still the same wargear.
It's true the results of this could be unsual (ymmv) but if a buna squad did take 5 wounds, all the models would be identicle and it is left to the discretion of the player to remove the models as per the rules. (We all know that crazy guy who would choose to have one less burna at that initive step to pull a fancy combat.)
This last is a bit strawman; if GW had wished for the commander to be able to tell these minor differences in a models battle experiance, then each model could easily be unique, they all move to different locations after all. And we know that suffering a wound isn't enough to tell the difference between models (with exception to the clause for instant death).
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:32:51
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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fun fact this isn't the first time I brought this up ... three years ago http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224418.page ... must admit some of my reasoning back then is suspect but such is life.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:43:55
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Names = Fluff, Fluff is not rules. so if the characteristics have the same profile values there is no allocation.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:45:21
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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So you really do posit that two different things are identical? Editing to add: I left off "for gaming purposes" intentionally. For gaming purposes two different things are different.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:46:17
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:46:53
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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DeathReaper wrote:Names = Fluff, Fluff is not rules. so if the characteristics have the same profile values there is no allocation.
...... Firing my plasma pistol ... large blast ... I say pistol? I meant cannon no biggy right. (...Edit miss typed but ...) that has a small blast? Na, that's just fluff we're using the big one.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:51:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:48:31
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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Tri wrote:DeathReaper wrote:Names = Fluff, Fluff is not rules. so if the characteristics have the same profile values there is no allocation.
...... Firing my plasma pistol ... large blast ... I say pistol? I meant cannon no biggy right.
Akin to wondering how any rule/model/ability/wargear is referenced since its name does not count.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:48:58
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:53:08
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Tri wrote:DeathReaper wrote:Names = Fluff, Fluff is not rules. so if the characteristics have the same profile values there is no allocation.
......
Firing my plasma pistol ... large blast ... I say pistol? I meant cannon no biggy right.
Plasma pistol and Plasma cannon have 2 different sets of rules
(you could call them Big Fragging Gun, and Big Fragging pistol, it would not matter as long as everyone knew what you were talking about).
Attacking you with my Assault Terminator Sergeant, oh wait I mean my Assault Terminator...
Assault Terminator and Assault Terminator Sergeant have the same rules, weapons, wargear, and characteristic values. they are 2 diffeernt models that are identical in game terms.
you could call them Blue Smurf and Blue Smurf with a grudge it would have no bearing on the actual rules. Automatically Appended Next Post: kirsanth wrote:Tri wrote:DeathReaper wrote:Names = Fluff, Fluff is not rules. so if the characteristics have the same profile values there is no allocation.
......
Firing my plasma pistol ... large blast ... I say pistol? I meant cannon no biggy right.
Akin to wondering how any rule/model/ability/wargear is referenced since its name does not count.
The names have 0 effect on how you play the game, they are just there for reference.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:54:05
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:55:35
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:The names have 0 effect on how you play the game, they are just there for reference.
So when a rule looks for "lasguns" for example, it can include things that have a different name? Since names have 0 effect on how youy play the game. . .
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:56:05
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:58:23
Subject: wound allocation
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DR - if names are fluff then one can't play the game as unit have no identify featurs as per the rules and could not be selected or written into an army list.
By the way where do to sit on burns who have/haven't used their power weapons?
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:58:34
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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DeathReaper wrote:The names have 0 effect on how you play the game, they are just there for reference.
Like to different profiles of characteristics ?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:58:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:59:53
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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they are just there for reference.
so you would reference "lasguns". and find the rules that define "lasguns"
Two models with Furious charge both add +1 to Str and I when they assault into combat.
2 different models with the Identical rule.
normal marines with FC would have Identical Str and I on the assault if they both had FC.
so these two marines are identical in game terms even if one was called gut with armor and the other was marine with armor.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:00:53
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:they are just there for reference.
So are the numbers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:01:11
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:02:58
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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ChrisCP wrote:DR - if names are fluff then one can't play the game as unit have no identify featurs as per the rules and could not be selected or written into an army list.
By the way where do to sit on burns who have/haven't used their power weapons?
That is an interesting question.
I think, since they are all equipped the same (the Burna can be used 1 of two ways) I do not think it matters for wound allocation how you use a Burna.
Right names are just for reference. Automatically Appended Next Post: kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:they are just there for reference.
So are the numbers.
except the names do not have a value, as is called for on P.7
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:03:26
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:03:28
Subject: wound allocation
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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I understand what you are saying DR (and personally agree), but I doubt anyone is going to change their mind and the argument is completely circular. I was also going to have a go at K for using bad grammar to insult members in his sig. until I read that it is common usage in US English. 'Different than each other' looks so wrong to my limey eyes!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:03:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:06:20
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Soup and a roll wrote:I understand what you are saying DR (and personally agree), but I doubt anyone is going to change their mind and the argument is completely circular.
I was also going to have a go at K for using bad grammar to insult members in his sig. until I read that it is common usage in US English. 'Different than each other' looks so wrong to my limey eyes!
you are probably correct on that one, maybe we should just leave it as is and wait for an FaQ from GW.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:06:56
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:they are just there for reference.
So are the numbers.
except the names do not have a value, as is called for on P.7
A value is not required. They are still listed as part of the profile. They are not a "characteristic" but are indeed part of the characteristic profile as it identifies which model is refered to.
Listing
334421164+ is not a profile.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:09:50
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:they are just there for reference.
So are the numbers.
except the names do not have a value, as is called for on P.7
A value is not required. They are still listed as part of the profile. They are not a "characteristic" but are indeed part of the characteristic profile as it identifies which model is refered to.
Listing
334421164+ is not a profile.
They are part of the profile, but attacking with an Assault Terminator Sergent is Identical in gaming terms to attacking with an Assault Terminator. The stats are what matter for gaming terms.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:11:56
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote: The stats are what matter for gaming terms.
No, the profile is what matters. Which is what you said previously. Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:They are part of the profile
This is all that matters, really.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:12:34
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:15:21
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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BGB (next line down) wrote:Of course many unit include different models, and when this is the case extra step is needed
Is the sergeant a different model? Yes, then extra step is needed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:16:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:19:15
Subject: wound allocation
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DeathReaper wrote:Names = Fluff, Fluff is not rules. so if the characteristics have the same profile values there is no allocation.
The names have 0 effect on how you play the game, they are just there for reference.
DeathReaper wrote:
Right names are just for reference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:they are just there for reference.
So are the numbers.
except the names do not have a value, as is called for on P.7
This doesn't work any more man, your DA just reached a real dead end with this particular line of reasoning.
One con have names with '0 effect', while still being there for referencing. If one's referencing something with a name for rules, then the name can not be fluff, because one doesn't look to fluff ever for a rule.
Furthur so, to check a profile after finding it with it's name is to see that profiles stats, to have to look at two different refernces means that they do not have the same profile of charateristics, they have two different ones, one can't look at one for the other or one's not actually using one of the profiles.
Try and play a game where all the names are fluff, ghaz and the like just don't work, neither does the duke etc etc etc.
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:19:49
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Tri wrote:next line down wrote:Of course many unit include different models, and when this is the case extra step is needed
Is the sergeant a different model? Yes, then extra step is needed. The other Assault terminators are different models, and you allocate normally, the same applies to the model that has the same/Identical in gaming terms profile, same special rules, weapons and wargear. All which the Assault Terminator Sergeant have. Assault Terminator and Assault Terminator Sergeant are identical in how the interact with the game, they have the same number of attacks, the same Weapon skill, the same strength, the same initiative, the same weapons, the same wargear, the same special rules that have an effect on them. They are Identical in gaming terms, they interact with the game in the exact same way. Edit to add, the names are not "Fluff" they are just there for reference. (I retract the previous statement about them being fluff)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:21:29
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:20:33
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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Soup and a roll wrote:I was also going to have a go at K for using bad grammar to insult members in his sig. until I read that it is common usage in US English. 'Different than each other' looks so wrong to my limey eyes!
As strange as it sounds, I had to cross reference the language when I was writing it too.  I made it correct in American just for spite. heh
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:22:03
Subject: wound allocation
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DeathReaper wrote:
They are part of the profile
And you've just done a 360, names can't be part of the profile (rules) because you said they were fluff. But as they are in fact part of a profile one can see again, two different profiles of characteristics - that happend to be the same in all bar name - thus different.
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:23:44
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:They are Identical in gaming terms
So they have no difference in the game at all? Even when refering to a profile? Automatically Appended Next Post: ChrisCP wrote:And you've just done a 360,
720, at least.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:24:23
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:27:14
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Exactly they score hits on the same number, they wound on the same number, they take armor saves on the same number.
They have to different profiles. These profiles are exactly equal and alike, aka identical
The fact that they are named two different things and have two different profiles does not matter, since the profiles are exactly equal and alike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ChrisCP wrote:DeathReaper wrote:
They are part of the profile
And you've just done a 360, names can't be part of the profile (rules) because you said they were fluff. But as they are in fact part of a profile one can see again, two different profiles of characteristics - that happend to be the same in all bar name - thus different.
Edit to add, the names are not "Fluff" they are just there for reference. (I retract the previous statement about them being fluff) (See above)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:27:53
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:34:25
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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DeathReaper wrote:Edit to add, the names are not "Fluff" they are just there for reference. (I retract the previous statement about them being fluff) (See above)
And in this case they reference two different profiles. One for the Sgt, one for the Sternguard ... two identical and different profiles. kirsanth wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post: ChrisCP wrote:And you've just done a 360,
720, at least.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 01:35:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:40:54
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Tri wrote: And in this case they reference two different profiles. One for the Sgt, one for the Sternguard ... two identical and different profiles.
Yes.
They do not have the same profile but they have the same profile of characteristics.
English is stupid sometimes, since the same can mean two different things.
like if I am reading The 40k Rulebook, and you are reading the same Rulebook, its possible for you to be sitting next to me reading the same book, or for you to be at your place with a copy of the book, reading the same book.
The reason I say they can not allocate wounds is because of the 'Identical in game terms' wording in the BRB. This says they can have different profiles but as long as those profiles interact with the game in an identical manner, then it is ok to have two different profiles and not be able to allocate wounds.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 01:44:20
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:They do not have the same profile but they have the same profile of characteristics.
They have the same characteristics despite being a different profile of characteristics.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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