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Owain wrote:The Whiteshields would certainly explain why all Cadians are such natural soldiers; it's been drummed into them since they passed puberty. Let's not forget that conscripts under 18 were taken during the Middle Ages and that desperate times call for desperate measures.

Cadians learn how to strip and clean a lasgun before they can walk properly

Jakka wrote:All politics and ethics aside, in Dead Men Walking, a 17 year old is considered a hardened Death Korps veteran, with the majority of them selected for service at around fourteen or so. Of course, that's after years of trench warfare on Krieg itself...

Well then add Krieg to the list of planets that use child-soldiers. I would figure so because they are super grimdark.


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Polonius wrote:Here's a really stupid question:

What does "10 years old" even mean? Is that standard terran years? Local years?

There is no one definition of "child." Many psycholgists now put the end of emotional adolescence at ~25 for males, while the age of puberty is actualy dropping.

So, on the one hand, it seems that all militaries make their ranks out of people that haven't fully mentally matured, even modern ones. On the other, it's ridiculous to think tha the IoM would be interested in soldiers that were physically underdeveloped.

Everything in 40K is done in Terran standard time.
It's not ridiculus, the evidence is mounting that the IoM does indeed use them.

I think it's a bit sweeping to say that everything is done in standard time, but it's probably safe to say that most references to time are Terran years.

I should have spoken more specifically: the Munitorium is probably not horribly pleased with pre-adolescent soldiers. local PDFs no doubt use who they can, but that's literally life or death.

Calling a 15 year old cadian a "child soldier" might be literally true, but so different from how our current culture operates as to strip the term of most negative connotations.

I mean, World War One alone say many, many 16 & 17 year olds fighting. As recently as the civil war children as young as 10 could legally enlist as drummers.

Firstborn sons of Vostroya are automatically conscripted into the guard. I don't know if there is an actual concription date or if the induction is considered to be enacted since birth.

Polonius wrote:I mean, World War One alone say many, many 16 & 17 year olds fighting.

Most of which either bluffed their age or the officials turned a blind eye to it. Neither were officially condoned really (though there was a case that found a soldier who was under the legal age to serve but ran away in battle was still eligible for execution, in this case it was a 16 year old who was shot).

As recently as the civil war children as young as 10 could legally enlist as drummers.

Not a combat role in the sense that child soldiers today are looked at. But you are right in the sense that there wasn't such a sanctity around childhood that there is today.

Emperors Children

I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take childeren as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rouge Trader book.

LordWynne wrote:I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take children as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rogue Trader book.

No, you don't. Because they don't do that.

And we're not talking about the Marines, we're talking about the Imperial Guard.

Weren't Marines marauding pirates in first edition? Or just in early Rogue Trader?

Yeah, I have to agree that the Imperium has enough manpower to be pretty picky with its recruitment, so I could only see child soldiers of 12-15 happening in a really desperate situation.

Kanluwen wrote:

LordWynne wrote:I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take children as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rogue Trader book.

No, you don't. Because they don't do that.

And we're not talking about the Marines, we're talking about the Imperial Guard.

Yes, we're talking about guard. But the Red Scorpions take babies.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Empire didn't use child labor... maybe that's what those little 'cheruby' things are that float around like servants in some art, but seriously...

In our own universe child labor laws are a recent phenomenon in western societies. Children have almost always been viewed as chatle. In many areas of the world they still are. One only has to watch the news for about 10 minutes to come across an image of a child armed with an AK. Having served in the military outside of the US I've personally seen 'soldiers' as young as 9 or 10. A child armed with an automatic weapon is a very dangerous and psychologically disruptive opponent as you might imagine.

So, considering the darkness of the 40k universe I think child labor/soldiers would be one of the least sins committed by society.

Brother Coa wrote:Cadians should not be included in this.

Why not? Cadia is not entirely a unique planet as far as its military mindset (even if its situation at the opening of the Eye of Terror is unique).

They're also the standard by which all other IG are measured.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Cadians should not be included in this.

Why not? Cadia is not entirely a unique planet as far as its military mindset (even if its situation at the opening of the Eye of Terror is unique).

Well because Cadia is unique, at least according to my opinion. They are razed and live everyday of their lives by military standards. And it's common for Cadian child to go millitary with it's 13-15 years. But that's Cadia, across million of Imperial world children are going into army usually at it's 18 or even earlier if they want to. And on some worlds children are never go to army. My point is that when looking this question, people think "oh Cadia, so the answer is yes" without thinking about hundreds upon thousands other Imperial worlds. Because when it comes to the Imperium we cannot see just Cadia, we must look at other worlds.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're also the standard by which all other IG are measured.

Yes, but every planet has it's customs however. And it's not custom to every planet to send it's children into millitary. And what about Vostrya? Each family send it's firstborn son into army, but do they do that in early age of child or later?

What would be the worst Imperial Organization to entrust with chitlins?

IMHO chitlins are worse off in the custody Ecclesiarchy or Adeptus Mechanicus than the Imperial Guard.

Kanluwen wrote:

LordWynne wrote:I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take children as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rogue Trader book.

No, you don't. Because they don't do that.

And we're not talking about the Marines, we're talking about the Imperial Guard.

Actually, we're talking about the Imperium.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Cadians should not be included in this.

Why not? Cadia is not entirely a unique planet as far as its military mindset (even if its situation at the opening of the Eye of Terror is unique).

Well because Cadia is unique, at least according to my opinion. They are razed and live everyday of their lives by military standards. And it's common for Cadian child to go millitary with it's 13-15 years. But that's Cadia, across million of Imperial world children are going into army usually at it's 18 or even earlier if they want to. And on some worlds children are never go to army. My point is that when looking this question, people think "oh Cadia, so the answer is yes" without thinking about hundreds upon thousands other Imperial worlds. Because when it comes to the Imperium we cannot see just Cadia, we must look at other worlds.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're also the standard by which all other IG are measured.

Yes, but every planet has it's customs however. And it's not custom to every planet to send it's children into millitary. And what about Vostrya? Each family send it's firstborn son into army, but do they do that in early age of child or later?

Cadia's uniqueness is not in question, however the threads title is "does the Imperium use child soldier's?". There is no picking and choosing imo. Also to answer your second statement, the planets do have their own customs yes. Though im sure the Imperium sets their minimum tithe. So I would think the planet must do whatever it can to reach that minimum. If that is sending lower aged teens into combat down to even children im sure the imperium wont send them back and is prepared to handle a younger crowd when it comes to training. The state of the planet may also affect it's tithe amount, what if the planet has to many people for instance? Lower the age that is sent to the guard, it looks good on their part to the Imperium and they free up some room.

There are also planets that have no problem meeting their tithe's. They may even raise the age of recruitment, this keeps workers on the planet and various other pro's for having your citizens at home.

Well, given the nature of the IoM, I'm pretty sure you can find pretty much anything you'd like somewhere in it. So, a question asking "Does the IoM use giant flying hedghogs" has a non-zero chance of being answered in the affirmative.

Assuming the Ministratum (essentially the overarching government) and the planets have a similar federalist/feudal arrangement that the US had in and before the civil war, and most Medieval states used, than the IoM would specify numbers and (maybe) arms. Everything else is up to the planets to provide. So if a planet wants to send only female warriors, or cloned mute soldiers, or even only the faculty of every liberal arts college, the IoM doesn't care.

I'm pretty sure the commissars that get attached to the 1st Liberal Arts College Regiment would care.

papathrax wrote:I'm pretty sure the commissars that get attached to the 1st Liberal Arts College Regiment would care.

Lol. I'd imagine they'd be pretty bummed out. But they're not going to send 'em back and hope for better soldiers, either.

Be the only regiment to run out of ammo before coming into contact with the enemy.

Well there must be some sort of minimum standard set by the Munitorium that must be met.
I can't imagine a world that does not take its IG tithe seriously going over well with the Munitorium, Administratum or Inquisition.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well there must be some sort of minimum standard set by the Munitorium that must be met.
I can't imagine a world that does not take its IG tithe seriously going over well with the Munitorium, Administratum or Inquisition.

I doubt age, by itself, is part of that. If you can fight, they'll take you.

Look at feralworld regiment; due to the roughness of a deathworld, most recruits are probably in their mid-teens anyway. also, I'm assuming that their is no universal recruitment age; the Imperium is heterogenous to the extreme, and I don't think anyone in the Munitorium is concerned about 14 year old soldiers, so long as they don't get in the way. I jsut imagine the Ecclesiarchy response being "It's never to early to die for the Emperor."

also, in response to whether or not a 15 year old Cadian is a child soldier, I wouldn't think so. there is a quote (I think in the 5th edition Guard Codex) that says "Any Cadian that couldn't fieldstrip his weapon by age 10 was born on the wrong planet"; I assume that means that by 15 they'd be consdiered more than adults in the combat sense.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well there must be some sort of minimum standard set by the Munitorium that must be met.
I can't imagine a world that does not take its IG tithe seriously going over well with the Munitorium, Administratum or Inquisition.

The Guard codex says the governor's life is forfeit if the tithe isn't of satisfactory quality, but then there's a lot of inconsistency with what the codex itself says about the Guard, to say nothing of what happens when you start looking at fluff in general...

The guard are the cream of the pdf crop, so those 10 year olds better be the strongest warriors on the planet or the next time the guard comes around it won't be as nice.

whiteshields, or underage cadians are planetary defense aren't they? Not part of the guard.

I'm truely amazed that people dont think the inperium use child soldiers!! hell you can join the british army at 16!! they just dont like you going into a combat zone untill you'r 18. 17year olds served in combat zones with the british army in the falklands and the first gulf war. So in the grimdark i thing it's safe to assume that 14-16year olds are regularly conscripted.

Cheers.

bollogs

MikeV37 wrote:

whiteshields, or underage cadians are planetary defense aren't they? Not part of the guard.

Correct. But if the Imperial Navy ships them off world then things get murkier.


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bollogs wrote:I'm truely amazed that people dont think the inperium use child soldiers!! hell you can join the british army at 16!! they just dont like you going into a combat zone untill you'r 18. 17year olds served in combat zones with the british army in the falklands and the first gulf war. So in the grimdark i thing it's safe to assume that 14-16year olds are regularly conscripted.

Cheers.

bollogs

17 year olds served in a combat role in the falklands?!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
17 year olds served in a combat role in the falklands?!

Yes. As an example; http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-news/featured-stories/2010/01/07/news-falklands-war-hero-from-blacon-angry-that-he-won-t-recieve-pension-for-fighting-for-his-country-aged-17-59067-25548579/

Yeah, in this country you can fight (and die) for your country and pay taxes at 17, but you can't vote or buy alcohol. At 16 you can join with parental permission, but I don't think you can serve abroad until you're 17.

I believe Canada has the same rules but I don't know if a 17 year old has served in combat in modern times or not.