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blaktoof wrote: Lots'o'text

The point I was trying to make is that you can read "are psykers and leadership 10 yadda yadda" in two different ways. One is the way you're reading it, the other one is that they're only psykers (with Ld10) when the conditions are met, otherwise they're just another vehicle. Misquoting rules so that they can only mean the thing you're interpreting them as is ignorant at best, downright malignant at worst.

You're changing the wording to suit your argument, blaktoof.

The actual wording:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Your modification:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods is Leadership 10.

It's a pretty huge difference.

The actual wording could be read (which is why this argument exists in the first place):
A vehicle [...] is a psyker. And. Leadership 10 for the purposes of [...]

But you're changing how it's written, which is probably not a good idea.



Also, can someone point out to me the rule or FAQ that says a unit automatically fails a test for a characteristic it doesn't posses? Pretty much everything I've read that (for instance) says it "automatically wounds on a roll of X+" also says it doesn't effect vehicles (seeing as they don't actually have wounds in the first place). Are we just assuming that a vehicle without a leadership value is treated as LD 0, or is there a rule that backs this up?

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."

still says its a psyker, and LD for psychic tests and psychic hoods

psyker= yes

part time psyker= no RAW

can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

can use LD for anything other than psychic tests and psychic hoods?= no RAW

I am not changing the wording, apologies for not using the exact wording. You can not add the words "for the purpose of" because RAW that is not there. That is what you want to be there.

it still is a psyker with no permission to not be a psyker at any point in time.

it only has permission to use LD for psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Normally this isn't a problem for vehicles since you don't need to take LD tests, however matt ward probably doesnt really look at other codexes.

Currently RAW for the model it is a psyker. it gets to be LD 10 for psychic hoods and psychic tests.

there is no RAW that its not a psyker but can use psychic powers.

there is no RAW that it only counts as a psyker for the time it is using psychic powers.

There is RAW that models that are psykers must pass an LD test or be removed from CoM.

Given that it is a psyker and not a psyker some of the time or can use psychic abilities without being a psyker, and is given permission to be LD 10 for psychic hoods and psychic tests. it is not given permission to be LD 10 for anything else in its rules it would be removed from play without a roll if CoM was used near it, or the game would breakdown because there is a possibile disconnect with failing a test if you do not have a characteristic versus being 0 in a characteristic and auto failing.

blaktoof wrote:I am not changing the wording, apologies for not using the exact wording. You can not add the words "for the purpose of" because RAW that is not there. That is what you want to be there.

I think you're confused:

blaktoof wrote:

They are psykers, yep. same as what I wrote.

And for the purposes of psychic hoods and psychic tests ld 10

There's no comma after psyker, there's no "is" or "as" before Leadership. There's nothing to indicate that their status is a "psyker" is separate from "for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."

blaktoof wrote:I am not changing the wording, apologies for not using the exact wording. You can not add the words "for the purpose of" because RAW that is not there. That is what you want to be there.

Wait what?


Also,

blaktoof wrote:can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

again I say: the only requirement, as per the BRB, for a model to cast a psychic power is that it pass a psychic test. The BRB then goes on to state that only psykers may take psychic tests. Guess who counts as a psyker for psychic tests?

blaktoof wrote:can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

again I say: the only requirement, as per the BRB, for a model to cast a psychic power is that it pass a psychic test. The BRB then goes on to state that only psykers may take psychic tests. Guess who counts as a psyker for psychic tests?

If you are "only" passing a Ld test and not casting said psychic power per se then I see no reason why you (the GK vehicle that is) would be susceptible to a perils hit.
If you are risking perils then I´l pretty damn call it casting a psychic power!

Yes if you are taking a psychic test you are doing that as part of caasting a psychic power. But the argument being laid out is that the vehicles are not psykers unless they are taking a psychic test which means they can never use a psychic power.

The only requirement for casting psychic powers is that you have a psychic power to cast and that you pass a psychic test.

Incorrect you must be a psyker with a psychic power who passes a psychic test.

Grey Knight vehicles have a psychic power, and count as psykers for the psychic test, which is the only thing required to cast a psychic power.

No they have to be a psyker to cast the power and still be a psyker when taking the test and still be a psyker when the power is resolved.

FlingitNow wrote:

If you are "only" passing a Ld test and not casting said psychic power per se then I see no reason why you (the GK vehicle that is) would be susceptible to a perils hit.
If you are risking perils then I´l pretty damn call it casting a psychic power!

Yes if you are taking a psychic test you are doing that as part of caasting a psychic power. But the argument being laid out is that the vehicles are not psykers unless they are taking a psychic test which means they can never use a psychic power.

The only requirement for casting psychic powers is that you have a psychic power to cast and that you pass a psychic test.

Incorrect you must be a psyker with a psychic power who passes a psychic test.

Grey Knight vehicles have a psychic power, and count as psykers for the psychic test, which is the only thing required to cast a psychic power.

No they have to be a psyker to cast the power and still be a psyker when taking the test and still be a psyker when the power is resolved.

Where in the rulebook does it say that? All I can see on page 50 (or possibly 51, can't remember which one of the two, doesn't really matter) is that you have to pass a psychic test to cast a psychic power. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that you have to be a psyker to declare that you're using a psychic power. All it says (which I've pointed out like 5 times now, and you jsut counter with "NO BECAUSE I SAY SO!") is that you have to pass a psychic test, and that you have to be a psyker to pass the test.

blaktoof wrote:

blaktoof wrote:can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

AlmightyWalrus wrote:again I say: the only requirement, as per the BRB, for a model to cast a psychic power is that it pass a psychic test. The BRB then goes on to state that only psykers may take psychic tests. Guess who counts as a psyker for psychic tests?

so yeah, they are psykers. check.

They are psykers for the purpouses of psychic tests. Anyone could easily understand that this means that they're not psykers otherwise. Again, they're not psykers until they take the psychic test, and they stop being psykers once the test is over until they cast their next psychic power.

Next time you try to refute the rules, could you provide quotes from the BRB to back your claims up instead of just saying "that's how it works because I say so"?

Where in the rulebook does it say that? All I can see on page 50 (or possibly 51, can't remember which one of the two, doesn't really matter) is that you have to pass a psychic test to cast a psychic power. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that you have to be a psyker to declare that you're using a psychic power. All it says (which I've pointed out like 5 times now, and you jsut counter with "NO BECAUSE I SAY SO!") is that you have to pass a psychic test, and that you have to be a psyker to pass the test.

Please read the previous pages where this was laid out. The BrB gives Psykers (and only Psykers) to cast 1 psychic power per turn. Please state where you have permission to cast a psychic power if you are not a psyker.

FlingitNow wrote:Please read the previous pages where this was laid out. The BrB gives Psykers (and only Psykers) to cast 1 psychic power per turn. Please state where you have permission to cast a psychic power if you are not a psyker.

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary. The rules would just say 'A vehicle with this special rule is a psyker (Mastery level 1)'.

For all effects limited to psychic tests and psychic hoods, it's a psyker. For anything else, it's not.

sourclams wrote:If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary.

Not true, unless they are going to have the vehicle subject to all LD rules and effects as well.

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary. The rules would just say 'A vehicle with this special rule is a psyker (Mastery level 1)'.

For all effects limited to psychic tests and psychic hoods, it's a psyker. For anything else, it's not.

The and clause highlights how it becomes Ld10 for tests and hoods. As kirsanth has pointed out. If you want your reading that the"for the purpose of psychic tests and Psychichoods" includes the part about being a psyker then you can never use psychic powers.

I'm not saying carte blanche that reading is incorrect it has a standing in RaW but that makes the entire rule do nothing. The other (also entirely legitimate) reading means you can use your psychic powers and the rule then does something but means you are auto-killed by CoM.

FlingitNow wrote:

Where in the rulebook does it say that? All I can see on page 50 (or possibly 51, can't remember which one of the two, doesn't really matter) is that you have to pass a psychic test to cast a psychic power. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that you have to be a psyker to declare that you're using a psychic power. All it says (which I've pointed out like 5 times now, and you jsut counter with "NO BECAUSE I SAY SO!") is that you have to pass a psychic test, and that you have to be a psyker to pass the test.

Please read the previous pages where this was laid out. The BrB gives Psykers (and only Psykers) to cast 1 psychic power per turn. Please state where you have permission to cast a psychic power if you are not a psyker.

That has also been covered. Page 33, more specifically the text for the power "Fortitude":

Codex: Grey Knights page 33 wrote:The Grey Knight pilot triggers the vehicle's psycho-reactive armour plating, recalibrating its systems. This power may be used in the Grey Knights' Movement Phase. If the Psychic test is successful, any crew shaken and crew stunned results already on the vehicle are nullified and no longer apply.

Emphasis mine.

Furthermore, while the rulebook does tell us that psykers may use psychic powers, we now also have Codex: Grey Knights telling us that we may use a specific psychic power. The only obstacle that's left is that you have to be a psyker to pass the psychic test, after which the power is successfully cast. Psychic pilot takes care of that hurdle, leaving us with a non-psyker casting psychic powers.

FlingitNow wrote:

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary. The rules would just say 'A vehicle with this special rule is a psyker (Mastery level 1)'.

For all effects limited to psychic tests and psychic hoods, it's a psyker. For anything else, it's not.

The and clause highlights how it becomes Ld10 for tests and hoods.

This is correct. There's no other way in English to grammatically interpret that sentence.

Grey Knight vehicles are treated as Psykers.

Grey Knight vehicles are treated as Ld 10 for the purpose of psychic tests and psychic hoods.



The only problem that remains is how does a Crucible of Malediction interact with psykers that have no Ld score.

That's not permission to cast the power as a non-psyker that is a description of how and when a psyker can cast the power.

Using your logic a Howling Banshee can assault out of a moving Wave Serpent by running utilising the fleet rule to enable her to assault...

FlingitNow wrote:That's not permission to cast the power as a non-psyker that is a description of how and when a psyker can cast the power.

Using your logic a Howling Banshee can assault out of a moving Wave Serpent by running utilising the fleet rule to enable her to assault...

Except she's explicitly forbidden from doing so by the rules. Had page 50 said "no model other than a model with the "psyker" special rule may cast psychic powers", you'd have a point, but all it does is give us one example of when you're allowed to use psychic powers. C:GK pg. 33 gives us another. Thus, they get to use powers etc etc etc.

Except she's explicitly forbidden from doing so by the rules. Had page 50 said "no model other than a model with the "psyker" special rule may cast psychic powers", you'd have a point, but all it does is give us one example of when you're allowed to use psychic powers. C:GK pg. 33 gives us another. Thus, they get to use powers etc etc etc.

So whats stopping me from using the power a 2nd time if I fail to cast it the first time? You are claiming this is blanket permission to use the power the only restriction on the power being used once comes from the psykers being able to use 1 power per turn since your saying this removes that restriction then you can keep casting that power until you are successful. It also makes you immune to perils as you're not a psyker for perils. So an easier way to word it would have been: Psychic pilot: Vehicle ignores all shakken and stunned results.

FlingitNow wrote:
So whats stopping me from using the power a 2nd time if I fail to cast it the first time? You are claiming this is blanket permission to use the power the only restriction on the power being used once comes from the psykers being able to use 1 power per turn since your saying this removes that restriction then you can keep casting that power until you are successful. It also makes you immune to perils as you're not a psyker for perils. So an easier way to word it would have been: Psychic pilot: Vehicle ignores all shakken and stunned results.

Being a psyker for the psychic test would stop you, as you're only allowed to take one psychic test per turn unless otherwise stated. Perils is handled by psychic pilot stating that the vehicle suffers a glancing hit if it perils, which it does if it's a psyker when it fails a psychic test on a roll of 12 or 2.

if a psyker is allowed to use multiple powers he can use the same one twice unless there are additional restrictions(PSA)

Being a psyker for the psychic test would stop you, as you're only allowed to take one psychic test per turn unless otherwise stated.

Not true you are rstricted to 1 power per turn not 1 psychic test. You are the on claiming that the 1 power per turn restriction doesn't apply as that is the restriction that requires you to be a psyker. Thre is no restriction on psychic tests...

FlingitNow wrote:

Being a psyker for the psychic test would stop you, as you're only allowed to take one psychic test per turn unless otherwise stated.

Not true you are rstricted to 1 power per turn not 1 psychic test. You are the on claiming that the 1 power per turn restriction doesn't apply as that is the restriction that requires you to be a psyker. Thre is no restriction on psychic tests...

The way I see it, part of using a psychic power is passing a psychic test. You're not allowed to pass the psychic test, as you count as a psyker for it and have already used your psychic power for the turn.

The way I see it, part of using a psychic power is passing a psychic test. You're not allowed to pass the psychic test, as you count as a psyker for it and have already used your psychic power for the turn.

Part of shooting is rolling to hit. Just because you are restricted to firing 1 weapon doesn't mean you are restricted to rolling to hit once.

Particularly if you remove the restriction to fire 1 weapon (which you are claiming Psychic Pilot does for the psychic powers).

FlingitNow wrote:

The way I see it, part of using a psychic power is passing a psychic test. You're not allowed to pass the psychic test, as you count as a psyker for it and have already used your psychic power for the turn.

Part of shooting is rolling to hit. Just because you are restricted to firing 1 weapon doesn't mean you are restricted to rolling to hit once.

Particularly if you remove the restriction to fire 1 weapon (which you are claiming Psychic Pilot does for the psychic powers).

Isn't it "pass psychic test, then apply effects"? As such the effective limiter of wether you get to use a psychic power is the psychic test, which means that your ability to pass a psychic test is what decides if you're allowed to use a psychic power or not. Without any rules governing it, you'd be free to test as many times as you wished as long as you didn't die. Then we have the rulebook stating that you're normally only allowed one test per psyker per turn. Then we have the GK Codex stating that you're a psyker for psychic tests. As such, when checking to see if you're allowed to use a psychic power when you've already used one, you come to the inevitable conclusion that to pass a psychic test you have to count as a psyker and as such can't pass, as you're only allowed one psychic power per turn when you're a psyker.

Isn't it "pass psychic test, then apply effects"? As such the effective limiter of wether you get to use a psychic power is the psychic test, which means that your ability to pass a psychic test is what decides if you're allowed to use a psychic power or not.

No restriction exists. To cast a psychic power the only restriction is in the BrB is that Psykers are allowed to do it once per player turn. You're saying that fortitude overrides that restriction thus you can cast it as many times as you want.

Without any rules governing it, you'd be free to test as many times as you wished as long as you didn't die.

Yes that is true, you take the test once per psychic power (as that is part of the psychic power process, just as you apply the results once per psychic power) but if you remove the restriction on how many psychic powers you can cast then yes you can keep going until you are successful or perils kills you.

Then we have the rulebook stating that you're normally only allowed one test per psyker per turn.

It says no such thing. It remains silent on how many tests you can take per turn. It only says how many powers you can cast per turn.

Then we have the GK Codex stating that you're a psyker for psychic tests.

Agreed.

As such, when checking to see if you're allowed to use a psychic power when you've already used one, you come to the inevitable conclusion that to pass a psychic test you have to count as a psyker and as such can't pass, as you're only allowed one psychic power per turn when you're a psyker.

But you say you don't check the restriction to being a psyker (and thus being able to use one power) because fortitude overrides that. If you check if you can use a power before taking the psychic test (i.e. like every other psyker in the game) then you can't ever use a power because you are not a psyker at that point. So yes your last point is entirely correct and that is why if you are only a psyker for psychic tests you can not use your powers.

FlingitNow wrote:

Then we have the rulebook stating that you're normally only allowed one test per psyker per turn.

It says no such thing. It remains silent on how many tests you can take per turn. It only says how many powers you can cast per turn.

That's the point, psychic tests are the only way to know wether your psychic power was cast or not, thus "use one power per turn" could be interpreted to mean "pass one test per turn".

Let me rephrase my stance on the issue: If you're ever a psyker during the process of casting a psychic power, you'll have to comply with any limitations of being a psyker, which in this case means you can only cast fortitude once per turn. As the psychic test is the first thing that happens when you cast a psychic power, you're temporarily made a psyker and thus have to abide by any restrictions. As psykers are only allowed (normally) to cast one psychic power per turn, you're not allowed to take the psychic test, as that would result in you casting a psychic power again.

In order of least to most specific:
BRB gives permission to psykers to cast psychic powers < Grey Knight Codex grants exception < BRB only lets you use one power, as you're not explicitly allowed to use more than one

That's the point, psychic tests are the only way to know wether your psychic power was cast or not, thus "use one power per turn" could be interpreted to mean "pass one test per turn".

No we can't anymore that we can interpret "shoot one weapon per turn" as "roll to hit once per turn".

If you're ever a psyker during the process of casting a psychic power, you'll have to comply with any limitations of being a psyker, which in this case means you can only cast fortitude once per turn.

But that stance isn;t backed by the rules at all. You check only at the point when you declare you are using a psychic power. At that point being a psyker is necessary if you're not you can't use a power, whether or not you later become a psyker for the actual test.