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You are creating a definition for yourself. There is nowhere that states a Shunt can't be used by common sense, which you want to apply to your own silliness about A + B = whatever.

A) Can you move in the Scout phase? Yes.
B) Does Shunting replace your movement? Yes.
C) Can I Shunt in the Scout phase? Yes.

A + B = C

Done.

Now, if the BRB had a section entitled "Normal Moves" and one named "Special Moves", then your argument would be entirely valid. As it stands, Turbo-Boosting is not a normal move, either. Its a USR, or Universal Special Rule.

Since you all seem so stuck on Normal vs. Special, how does that sit with you?

"Many units of models in Warhammer 40,000 have unique special rules." p74

So, as I said, Turbo-Boosting sets a precedent, as it is a movement related rule allowed in the Scout phase. Shunting is no different, except that its rules are outlined in a Codex.

As I said in a different post.. TB/Smoke got their faq, reguardless of your feeling on it.. you will probably have to wait for your faq. And again, the rule for Turboboosting is aunder special rules not special moves.. so how are you relating the two. you can't use it as a specific for your point in one move and in the other say but it doesn't... And seeing as how only GK have the "SHUNT" .. i call that pretty special..Blood Talons aren't in the special rules, their special wargears and items that may make a character or model behave differently then intended. .. Seems un normal.. Try looking at it from the ohter side of the argument.

Btw, your version of A+B=C is no diff then the ohter guys.. you invent your own c.. as no where .. and i mean no where does it say you can use a "shunt" in the scout move.

Yea, its does say so, because of how the logical pattern of my A+B=C argument lines up. Its simple rules understanding, nothing more. Also, as said in the other thread, FAQs exist to clear up rules problems, not entirely define them.

Also, Turbo-Boosting is a "Special" rule, is it not? Bikes reference it because it is a USR, while Shunting outlines what it does in a Codex. NDKs even reference the Shunting rules of another entry, etc. My point was that as a "Special" rule, Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" movement at all.

So your argument there is moot. Of course, as "Special" and "Normal" are creations of the players and not even in the Rulebook, it was moot from the start anyhow, just trying to illustrate that your argument was not sound.

First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

Second: the BRB does NOT define normal. However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can

There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

Yup. Thanks nos, that is basically it spelled out right there.

shank911 wrote:The reason this is important is because, if you can shunt in scout phase, which isnt a turn, then the no assault thing doesnt occur.

So you shunt get 12" away then move shoot assault next turn.

Im will be amazed if the FAQ allows this to go through.
Because of the implications of this.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the shunt move.

Can you assault and shoot and other things after turbo boosting in the scout phase?

Yes.

This argument is irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

Second: the BRB does NOT define normal. However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can

There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

Agree completely.

Im looking directly at the codex and it says that "Once per game the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt INSTEAD OF MOVING. ... They move up to 30" "

Turbo boosting says "may MOVE up to 24" in the movement phase."

So turbo boosting is a movement where the teleport shunt is INSTEAD of movement.

Looking at scouts: ANY SCOUTS MAY MAKE A NORMAL MOVE.

As scouts say normal move and shunt is a movement now I think shuntng is legal for scouting until the faq gets released.

I believe you can shunt move during scout moves.

However DT is an issue with only 2 possible outcomes.

1.) They count as jump infantry when moving through or into difficult terrain and on 1s are removed from play.

2.) They count as normal infantry so if they move through difficult terrain they roll 2d6 and pick the highest and that is now their max shunt move. Which makes your max shunt move 6". Because if you are not jump infantry that is how you move through difficult terrain.


honestly 1 is more plausible and as such they should be treated as jump infantry when moving with shunt.

Shunt ignores all intervening terrain, because its rule says so. If the move ends in dangerous terrain, he has to test as there is no exception made, so rules for regular moves apply.

edit: too stupid to type.

nosferatu1001 wrote:First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

Second: the BRB does NOT define normal. However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can

There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

I think this pretty much sums it up right here. Nos has an excellent grip on the rules, and has posted actual RAW and precedents. Nosferatu is 100% correct.

nosferatu1001 wrote:First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

I completely agree with this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Second: the BRB does NOT define normal.

Here is where your argument gets iffy. The BRB does not explicitly define what normal movement, but you could infer that anything outlined in the BRB is normal, because the BRB itself outlines all of the standard/normal rules for the game. A valid argument you could make against that logic is that I am implying something that is not explicitly outlined anywhere in the 40k rules. If we are going by pure RAW, then I agree with you. So lets assume we are going by pure RAW:

nosferatu1001 wrote:However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

Nope. The FAQ does not say anything of the sort. It actually says:
Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move? (p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12” away from the enemy as they move.
AND
Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its
Scout move?
A: Yes.

Nowhere in the FAQ does it say what you said in your quote. You are implying something that is not explicitly outlined anywhere in the 40k FAQ. Either we can both do that or neither of us can.

Assume we can infer intent from rules:
You infer that the FAQ says anything you can normally do in your movement phase can be done during scouting. (claim backed up by smoke and TB being allowed through FAQ)
I infer that normal is defined by anything outlined in the BRB. (claim backed up by smoke and TB both being outlined in the BRB and thus being normal AND by GW saying they now can meaning it is allowed because it is outlined in the BRB)
Shunting is not outlined in the BRB, therefore is not "normal".

Assume we can not infer intent from rules:
Normal movement is not described anywhere in the rules (BRB or FAQ).
Scout movement requires that the move be a normal move.
Turbo-boosting and smoke launchers required a FAQ.

Shunting will require a FAQ and until then should be played like turboboosting and smoke launchers were played before their respective FAQS or until normal movement is defined.

nosferatu1001 wrote:third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

I agree here as well

nosferatu1001 wrote:Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can
There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

Your second argument is still weak and has many holes in the logic. Specifically switching from RAI to RAW when its convenient for you. Conclusion is not valid.

ObiFett wrote:
Shunting will require a FAQ and until then should be played like turboboosting and smoke launchers were played before their respective FAQS or until normal movement is defined.

OK, so it's OK to teleport shunt then? After all, many players were already turbo-boosting during their scout moves before they clarified that you can do so in the FAQ.

Sure, if that's how you played previous.

At my store it was the opposite.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Second: the BRB does NOT define normal.

Here is where your argument gets iffy. The BRB does not explicitly define what normal movement, but you could infer that anything outlined in the BRB is normal, because the BRB itself outlines all of the standard/normal rules for the game. A valid argument you could make against that logic is that I am implying something that is not explicitly outlined anywhere in the 40k rules.

Well, there are universal special rules, special weapons, special close combat attacks, special attacks and special characters in the rulebook. You argument is hardly one, as you interpretation would even break some of those rules. Also codex rules are no different than any BRB rule, except that the codex takes precedence over any other rule in the case of conflicting rules.
Normal movement describes nothing but a regular movent done during a movement phase (it even says so in the scout rule), as opposed to an assault movement, a pile-in movement, a fall back! movement or hit&run movement, which all follow very different rules than regular movment. Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

Jidmah wrote:Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

...that is "instead of moving" according to the codex.

It needs a faq. Both sides have sound arguments. GW did a shoddy job with the rules and wording in this case.

ObiFett wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

...that is "instead of moving" according to the codex.

It needs a faq. Both sides have sound arguments. GW did a shoddy job with the rules and wording in this case.

No.

Both sides have arguments, but the pro shunt move during the scout move have far more weight behind their arguments than the non shunt move during the scout move.

You forgot to add "imo" to the end of that post.

ObiFett wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

...that is "instead of moving" according to the codex.

It needs a faq. Both sides have sound arguments. GW did a shoddy job with the rules and wording in this case.

Been there, done that. Shunt is a move by RAW, it obeys all rules for regular moves exept for intervening terrain. Shunt is a regular move.

The only question actually up to any debate is, whether you are forced to move the unit type's regular movement distance during scout, or whether you may do another move instead. There are actually no rules of any kind denying it, but two faqs plus the clarification of "normal move" within the scout rule, basicly allowing you to do anything while scouting that could be done when making a move in your movement phase. As no difference between the scout move and a move during a movement phase can be made, anything legal during one must be legal during the other and vice versa.

And agreed, it needs a FAQ, I don't actually care which way.

ObiFett wrote:You forgot to add "imo" to the end of that post.

Generally if something is posted without a quote or a page number it is probably safe to assume it is in the opinion of the poster.

on pg 76 of the BRB (this has already been quoted): "before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy."

So a normal move is a move "done exactly as in their movement phase."

A shunt can be preformed during the movement phase so it is valid.

However I see this turning out extremely problematic for a 30" move. Lets say this is a pitched battle the enemy lines up 12 in off the board in a straight line, there is now 24" of direct table space available for a scout move, normally this wouldn't matter because units tend not to move too far (or at the very least can limit their move). with a theoretical half of the table taken for a scout move, the player has a corner to corner length of 64 in, plenty of room for a 30in shunt, but in my mind it will take a lot of games for people to figure out how to make this shunt move viable (aka the dreadknight is placed in the position that is in fact where the player wanted it. In my mind it wont be as game breaking as you seem to think it will (plenty of dangerous units are able to get that far in on the first turn, bikes that can scout, drop pods (these also have dreads in them too!), scouts.)

Because of the above stated I STILL don't understand why people are so concerned with this shunt business.

It is a move of 30", and therefore is implicitly UP TO 30", like all movement is "up to" your maximum.

Idk, their fairly specific about this kind of thing "Bikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase." :53
"When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the
Movement phase" :76

These aren't a 30" move, and to make a 29" move is not making a 30" move. I think that any real issue with a 3)" move can be debunked simply with <(^_^)>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\(>=_=)> wiggly movement.

But what page is the Shunt more wording on (in this thread)?

ObiFett wrote:You forgot to add "imo" to the end of that post.

As soon as you add it to yours...

I also would like specific wording on the shunt. because if it says it is a 30" move in any direction, then I would say that it is a 30" move not 30" or less.

All moves made in 40K are "up to". Its in the BRB somewhere. Don't have it in front of me, but I am pretty sure.

"In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of
them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement
distance." pg 11

Is distinct from "makes a 30" move" when it lacks the up to every single other entry has. It might be an oversight, might not. Hence asking for the actual wording.

I must say that i believe that the shunt is a legal move. It's replacing a normal move, so therefore you can use it in your scout phase. And this is my second post, yay!

Chris - exact same wording as Lash, where you make a 2D6" move. This move is a normal move, and ALL normal moves are "up to" - and the FAQ for lash confirms that.

You move up to 30", and can do so in the scout "phase"

Ah, cheers for the FAQ mention

nice, good call on the lash being worded the same. I retract my previous statements about shunt being a required 30" move. Thanks Nos.