Brotherhood of Psykers vs. the Crucible of Malediction Incongruity (Final Update added to OP)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Accersitus**

Galador wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Galador wrote:Ok, if the attack is an offensive action I take against the enemy, what offensive action am I taking??? Opening the Crucible??? how is opening a box, bag, door, whatever the Crucuble actually is, an offensive action against my enemy??? I am not taking the offensive action, the things inside the Crucible are taking the offensive action. After all, if the first line of the Crucible description/rule is part of the rule, then the whole thing is part of the rule, right?

CoM is not an unspecified attack, it is not an attack at all. It is never defined as an attack, but it is defined as something you do in your shooting phase, instead of firing a weapon. So if i'm not firing a weapon, and its not defined as an attack, what am I doing?? Oh, wait, thats right, im opening the Crucible!

The BoP rule works against Perils of the Warp, which happens when a Psyker fails a Psychic test, and against any attack that specifically targets psykers! So question for you, where is my target???

Attack IS NOT DEFINED in the BRB so we can not find out what an attack is from the BRB we Must use the real world definition to define it.

The target is ALL Psykers within the 3D6 inch range. There are your target(s) The attack you are taking is using the CoM to eliminate models from the board.

Something that targets ALL Psykers within 3D6 inches and forces them to make a test or be removed is most certainly an attack against them in hopes of getting them off the board.

you can try to shoot down the argument of what constitutes an attack (Which is undefined in the brb so we use the standard english definition) But these counter arguments are not valid because taking an action that has an effect that removes model from the table is the very definition of what an attack is, since it is not defined in the brb.

Ok, you want something other than attack, huh?? Well, thats easy enough.... When is the crucible used??? In the shooting pahse instead of shooting, correct??? So lets once again go back to the BRB on pg. 15 and see what that constitutes...

1st part of the shooting phase is enough: Check line of site and pick a target.

A TARGET, not multiple targets. Flip it over to page 16 real fast, and read the first line of part one of the shooting phase.

A firing unit (i.e. a Haemy carrying a Com) may choose a SINGLE enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its TARGET, and may NOT split its fire between different targets.

So in order for me to hit multiple TARGETS, I have to bring more than one CoM, as it is a weapon used in the shooting phase, correct??

WRONG AGAIN. There are no TARGETS for the CoM, it never asks you nor tells you to target anything, unlike firing a weapon, which is states you cannont do if you use the CoM. So how can I target something if I am using this in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon without specific permission to target??? I can't, hence I am not targeting anyone, it is an AREA OF EFFECT LEADERSHIP TEST. All Psykers within 3D6" must test, not A PSYKER within 3D6". I can't target anyone, because I am not allowed to as it isn't a shooting weapon, it is simply an area of effect within a certain number of inches. I dont measure only straight in head of me, or to my left, right, or behind, I have a 360 degree measurement with it all the way around my model carrying it. And I don't pick a SINGLE Psyker unit within that 3D6", I cause a leadership test on them ALL within the 3D6", so the shooting phase rules DO NOT apply to CoM, which means I don't pick a TARGET. But in order to ATTACK in the shooting phase, using your dictionary definition of attack, I must do something offensive to them, which I am not, because I am not following the rules for using a weapon in the Shooting phase.

So, you ask, WHAT am I doing to them then??? I am making them take a Leadership TEST. I am TESTING them, not ATTACKING them. Now then, if they FAIL that TEST, then they are removed from play. if they PASS that TEST, they are fine, and nothing has happened to them whatsoever. So what your trying to say is that if I cause them to fail, its an attack, but if they pass, its not??? Thats what it seems like, because them passing the test means they suffered no offensive action, as all they did was roll some dice and look at my Haemy funny.....

Now then, lets cover the removed from play bit..... and I will even use ANOTHER DE piece of arcane wargear to demostrate this. Lets take a look at the Hexrifle, shall we??? Now, it has a weapon profile, so it obviously ATTACKS. It is one sniper shot, that picks a target and checks line of sight, then checks the range to the TARGET, then rolls to hit, then rolls to wound, and then the TARGET rolls any applicable saves. So, my Haemy shoots at, oh, lets say Lord Kaldor Draigo, Just to keep it in the GK codex. Why Lord Kaldor Draigo, you ask??? Because Lord Kaldor Draigo is the only thing within the GK codex with the Special Rule Eternal Warrior. So my Haemy chooses LKD as his target, then checks line of site and finds out he can see him. I then check the range to LKD and see that he is within the 36" range of the Hexrifle. So I roll to see if my Haemy hits, and he does. I then roll to see if he wounds, and he does. so at this point LKD takes his save, and fails it. I have now caused my attack against him and given him an unsaved wound, exactly as happens in the shooting phase.

But here is where the twist comes in.... because for every unsaved wound caused by the hexrifle, the affected model must take a CHARACTERISTICS TEST (Emphasis mine, but the two words are verbatim from the DE codex) based on their Wounds Value. and it clearly states the one in their profile, which we all know is made up of characteristics, not the current number of wounds they have remaining. So LKD takes the test, and he starts with 4 wounds. If he rolls a 4 or less, hes fine, but if he rolls higher, what happens???? Why, he's removed from play, with no saves of any kind allowed!!!! But wait, he's just gonna take that one wound right, cause he has Eternal Warrior! WRONG. The hexrifle says nothing about Instant Death, it says removed from PLAY. But you can't take all his wounds at once because of EW!! Yes, I can, because I didn't wound him for him to be REMOVED FROM PLAY, he failed the TEST he had to take in order to stay in PLAY, so buh bye, remove him from play.

But wait!!!!! How can I remove him from play based on a characteristics test that is supposedly an attack??? the Hexrifle, according to how a shooting weapon is defined by GW, is only allowed Assault1, which means I can only attack him once, and then assault if I am within range for close combat. But, if a characteristic test is an ATTACK, that would give me TWO ATTACKS, something my weapons profile denies me have, because I only have ASSAULT 1 on the hexrifle.... so how am I getting the second attack if I can only have one attack??? Simple answer.... I'm not attacking him after the shot, I'm making him take a characteristic TEST, which can be done as it doesn't go over my one attack allowed by my weapon's profile. So, long story short, CHARACTERISTICS TESTS ARE NOT ATTACKS, OTHERWISE ANYTHING THAT DID PINNING ATTACKS OR ANY OTHER CHARACTERISTICS TEST COULD NEVER CAUSE THE TEST BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE THE ALLOWED AMOUNT OF ATTACKS IN ITS WEAPONRY PROFILE.

(not shouting in the last part, put it in all caps to ensure it was read and paid attention to )

Ball is back in your court, and the score is still tied, 0-0, IMHO!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

solkan wrote:I think there's very bad news for this thread. From the "Tenets of You Make Da Call" thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page stickied at the top of the forum:

3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it.

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

That leaves everyone at:
A: "I think it's an attack."
B: "I respectfully disagree."

I thank you for posting that....... I really really do!!!!

It doesn't have to be that way. The Necron Monolith's Gauss Flux Arc Projectors fires D6 shots at every enemy unit with a model withing 12", so there are shooting weapons in the game that targets every enemy unit within a certain distance. It's type is: Heavy D6 (per target unit). This is also an Area of effect, and it targets every enemy unit with a model within 12". This at least implies that within X" effects targets all valid models/units within X".

As for the topic in general, it seems like RAW can be debated. Even if the CoMI targets all psykers withing 3D6", if that constitutes an attack is not clear.
As for RAI (who can really tell with GW), but personally, I would guess they FAQ it to force the test on the justicar/KotF/random character, and have that model bear the consequences.

Would have been simpler if the justicar/KotF/random model was just designated as a psyker (focusing the collective powers of the entire squad). Would make all effects that work on psykers simpler as there would be no need for the definition of attack, and it would cover everything with Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

**Galador**

Accersitus wrote:It doesn't have to be that way. The Necron Monolith's Gauss Flux Arc Projectors fires D6 shots at every enemy unit with a model withing 12", so there are shooting weapons in the game that targets every enemy unit within a certain distance. It's type is: Heavy D6 (per target unit). This is also an Area of effect, and it targets every enemy unit with a model within 12". This at least implies that within X" effects targets all valid models/units within X".

As for the topic in general, it seems like RAW can be debated. Even if the CoMI targets all psykers withing 3D6", if that constitutes an attack is not clear.
As for RAI (who can really tell with GW), but personally, I would guess they FAQ it to force the test on the justicar/KotF/random character, and have that model bear the consequences.

Would have been simpler if the justicar/KotF/random model was just designated as a psyker (focusing the collective powers of the entire squad). Would make all effects that work on psykers simpler as there would be no need for the definition of attack, and it would cover everything with Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

The Monliths Flux arc also has a weapon profile, which CoM doesn't, it fires, which CoM doesn't (and in fact your not allowed to do if you use CoM), and it is specific in its rules that it will fire at every enemy unit with a model within 12", so it overrules the BRB, as it is in a codex and codex rules trump BRB rules.

But then again, it is also a weapon with a type, as you stated, of Range 12", Strength 5, AP 4, Heavy D6(per target unit (Necron Codex, pg.14). This in turn makes it a shooting weapon. However, there is no such profile for the CoM, so it is not a shooting weapon. I never stated that a weapon could not have multiple targets, I stated that the BRB says they pick a single unit, but if their codex states they pick more than one, we once again go to the Codex> BRB.

**Sliggoth**

And of course something such as mindwar is a psychic power that is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Mindwar is never listed or described as an attack in the codex but it is counted as an attack.

The fact that the crucible forces the psycher to take a test on a stat matters in absolutely no way whatsoever. The test is how the attack is RESOLVED. At that point there is already an attack, we just need to follow the crucible's rule to determine how that attack is then carried out. Mindwar is an attack where we roll and compare the modified leadership values of the two models.

YES, the crucible is not a psychic power. Mind war is merely being brough up as an example that not every attack in 40k is resolved with a weapon that has a normal statline.

There is no requirement that an attack be made with a weapon that has a statline. Some weapons merely modify an attack in some way, such as poisoned or rending weapons. Or modify the strength of the attack, such as power fists. Or simply remove the affected model if it fails an initiative test, such as Jotww.

Sliggoth

**Galador**

Sliggoth wrote:And of course something such as mindwar is a psychic power that is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Mindwar is never listed or described as an attack in the codex but it is counted as an attack.

The fact that the crucible forces the psycher to take a test on a stat matters in absolutely no way whatsoever. The test is how the attack is RESOLVED. At that point there is already an attack, we just need to follow the crucible's rule to determine how that attack is then carried out. Mindwar is an attack where we roll and compare the modified leadership values of the two models.

YES, the crucible is not a psychic power. Mind war is merely being brough up as an example that not every attack in 40k is resolved with a weapon that has a normal statline.

There is no requirement that an attack be made with a weapon that has a statline. Some weapons merely modify an attack in some way, such as poisoned or rending weapons. Or modify the strength of the attack, such as power fists. Or simply remove the affected model if it fails an initiative test, such as Jotww.

Sliggoth

But the fallacy in your arguement is two things....

Mind War causes wounds, CoM does not. Mind War is not a characteristic test, it is a roll-off of a D6 and then the leadership characteristic is added to each dice. a Characteristic test is against the characteristic's value, not your value vs your opponents value.

JotWW is stated specifically in its rules as being an attack, CoM is not.

Lets pick a different piece of DE wargear to spin this again to try and get someone to understand this.....

lets go with the shattershard...

The shattershard is a shooting weapon, because it has a weapon profile for shooting and the rules for shattershard state it is a ranged weapon with the following profile. It is a Template weapon. You put down your template and look for which models are under the Template.

DE Codex, pg. 61: Any models hit by the Shattershard must take a toughness test. If they fail this test, then they are removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed.

Now then.... which one of these things made it an attack, the hit with the template, or the test???

Well, according to previous posters, the Characteristic test is the attack. However, according to you, Sliggoth, the test isn't the attack, its how the attack was resolved. Which once again states what I said earlier, that a Characteristic test, unless specifically stated, is NOT an attack.

If the test doesn't matter, sliggoth, where was the attack??? The only thing that happens before the test on the Psyker is that I choose to open the Crucible, I roll 3D6, and I measure the distance in inches, and determine which psykers are within that distance. So what part of that was the attack??? Did I yell that I was using the Crucible instead of firing, and cause the Psyker to fall over, thus attacking him with bad breath or sound waves?

Did my Haemy smack him in the face with the box top from the Crucible of Malediction as he opened it because he leaned in to look at what he was doing?

Did I throw the dice too hard and or far across the table and hit the Psyker units model, thus knocking him off the table?

Did I hit the model with the tape measure as I determine the distance from the Haemy, thus knocking him off the table??

Yes, that last little bit was some bored humor, as according to what you are telling me Sliggoth, something cause it to be an attack before the leadership test is rolled. For your Mind War example, you already gave me my answer, it is a Psychic power used instead of shooting. Hence, we already know what it is. And seeing as it isn't a characteristic test, and causes wounds, it is irrelevant to compare to CoM.

So lets see what is actually done in the CoM rules before the leadership test, shall we? The only things done are opening the Crucible instead of firing and rolling 3D6 to determine the number of inches. Which one of those is the attack?? Well, opening the Crucible is obviously fluff, but the choice to not fire isn't fluff, its a choice I make. So is that the attack?? If so, how is it the attack, I don't remember seeing anywhere that a choice is an attack. I can choose to shoot someone or not shoot them, but if I choose to not shoot them, thats an attack?? nope. I can choose to assault someone or not assault someone, so is that an attack? nope. Choices aren't attack, so it must be the dice to determine the distance right?? Rolling dice for distance determines attack now?? So a unit attempting to spot another unit during Night Fighting is attacking when they are rolling for the distance they can see?? Wow, thats a sneaky one I never would have thought of!

Nothing happens before the test, so the test is all that happens, and a characteristic test is not an attack unless specifically stated that it is.

**DeathReaper**

solkan wrote:6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

Only one thing wrong with that Sol, the BRB does not define attack, so we are forced to bring the real world definition into it, otherwise, within the rules, attack is just one of the 9 characteristics on a profile and nothing else.

@Galdor Since we know attack is not defined in the brb, other than being one of the 9 characteristics on a profile and nothing else, we have to use the real world definition of attack.

If you know what an attack is defined as, then you can tell that CoM is an attack.

The fact that it targets every unit within 3D6 range, and forces a LD test on them or be removed from play, says right there it is an attack.

its not the rolling of the dice or the opening of the box, its the DE player declaring that he is using a Weapon on all of the opposing psykers in a radius of no more than eighteen inches (Depending on the outcome of the roll) that makes it an attack.

AKA making them take a Leadership TEST is an attack against opposing psykers and it is a hostile action with a weapon, in this case the CoM. the very definition of an attack.

I do not know how to make it any more clear, so I am done here.

**Galador**

DeathReaper wrote:
solkan wrote:6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

Only one thing wrong with that Sol, the BRB does not define attack, so we are forced to bring the real world definition into it, otherwise, within the rules, attack is just one of the 9 characteristics on a profile and nothing else.

@Galdor Since we know attack is not defined in the brb, other than being one of the 9 characteristics on a profile and nothing else, we have to use the real world definition of attack.

If you know what an attack is defined as, then you can tell that CoM is an attack.

The fact that it targets every unit within 3D6 range, and forces a LD test on them or be removed from play, says right there it is an attack.

its not the rolling of the dice or the opening of the box, its the DE player declaring that he is using a Weapon on all of the opposing psykers in a radius of no more than eighteen inches (Depending on the outcome of the roll) that makes it an attack.

AKA making them take a Leadership TEST is an attack against opposing psykers and it is a hostile action with a weapon, in this case the CoM. the very definition of an attack.

I do not know how to make it any more clear, so I am done here.

two things for ya, just so that you can have something to think about if you do decide to come back.

1) nowhere in the CoM rules does it target anyone, as targeting is done for firing a weapon, which you cannot do as per the CoM rules.

2) Who said anything about it affecting every enemy Psyker within 3D6"??

I don't remember stating that it only effected enemies (although, with as many times as I have posted on this, I might have somewhere along the lines

)

CoM makes EVERY Psyker within 3D6" take a LD test. So does that mean I am attacking my own allied Psykers if I play a team tournament?? Last I remember, you can't attack your partner in a team battle, so that also invalidates it being an attack, cause if its an attack, I can't hurt my partner's Psykers, but by CoM rules, I can.

Once again, I state it is a test, not an attack. Use any definition you want, because a characteristic test is CLEARLY defined in the BRB, and nowhere in its definition is it stated that it is an attack. So since the only thing I do is cause a test on EVERY Psyker within 3D6", I cause no attacks, as per the definition in the BRB for Leadership Tests.

As you said, I can make it no clearer, so believe what you wish, and I will believe what I read in the BRB.

**time wizard**

DeathReaper wrote: Only one thing wrong with that Sol, the BRB does not define attack, so we are forced to bring the real world definition into it, otherwise, within the rules, attack is just one of the 9 characteristics on a profile and nothing else.

Well, the rules do talk about number of attacks in assaults, who can attack, psychic shooting attacks.

DeathReaper wrote:If you know what an attack is defined as, then you can tell that CoM is an attack.

The fact that it targets every unit within 3D6 range, and forces a LD test on them or be removed from play, says right there it is an attack.

But it doesn't target anything. As has been noted, it doesn't require LOS, you don't have to assualt the unit you "fire" at, it is an item of wargear that causes an effect.

DeathReaper wrote: its not the rolling of the dice or the opening of the box, its the DE player declaring that he is using a Weapon on all of the opposing psykers in a radius of no more than eighteen inches (Depending on the outcome of the roll) that makes it an attack.

The DE player doesn't declare anything. The rule is that to use the crucible, once per game the model with it opens it instead of firing. Then the crucible's effect takes place.

DeathReaper wrote:AKA making them take a Leadership TEST is an attack against opposing psykers and it is a hostile action with a weapon, in this case the CoM. the very definition of an attack.

Actually, having an opposing psyker make a save against a wound is the definition of an attack.
Suffering a peril of the warp is referred to as an attack in the GK Codex. It causes a wound when it occurs like any other attack.
CoM on the other hand, requires a test to be performed and if the test is not passed, the psyker is removed.
If I have a unit falling back, and it fails successive leadership tests to regroup, and a model reaches the table edge, they are removed.
Did it suffer from a "failure to regroup" attack? No, it simply failed to pass a required test, and the penalty for such failure was being removed from the game.

**AlmightyWalrus**

We're not saying (I'm not at least) that the test is an attack. The act of forcing your enemy to take a test, however, is. As you're forcing every psyker within 3D6 inches to test (i.e. they're your targets), every instance of Brotherhood of Psykers activates, and clearly states what to do.

**Galador**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The act of forcing your enemy to take a test, however, is.

What rule tells you this??? The ONLY rule I have found that defines characteristics tests, which include leadership tests, is on pg. 8 of the BRB. They can be modified by things, such as wounds from Ordnance, but it does not say it is an attack, it clearly states that it is a TEST. I do nothing to cause an attack. I don't nominate a single target, as per the shooting phase instructions, I don't fire a weapon, I don't hit, I don't wound.

If you want to go literal with the fluff, which is the onlything telling what the Haemy actually does, all I do is open the Crucible. So for the final time, because I am done arguing this seeing as everyone seems to want to use definitions from outside the BRB and codices, but NOONE wants to use definitions from in them for the game they were written for, a characteristic test is not an attack, and Crucible of malediction simply causes every Psyker (not just enemy) withing 3D6" to take a Leadership TEST. If they fail, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind allowed. But, since I caused no wounds, you wouldn't get a save anyway!

Thank you, have a good night, continue to argue against definitions directly from the book all you want, I will not be posting in this thread anymore because noone in this thread wants to look at the rules as they are laid out in the very book that states the rules for the GAME!

**AlmightyWalrus**

Wow, you ignore what I said and then blame ME for ignoring YOU? Note how I SPECIFICALLY stated that it's NOT the test that is an attack, but rather the act of forcing your opponent to take it in the first place. By your analogy, pulling the trigger of a gun isn't an attack because it's the bullet attacking your foe.

**Solourus**

I don’t think it maters if CoM is an attack or not.

Lets follow the chain of events.

1.Heamonculs activates CoM
“All psykers in 3D6 must pass a LD check or be removed from play”

2. There is Grey Knights squad in range, BoP kicks in
“If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead.”

4. Ok so let’s test against LD on the Justicar. If he fails then the effects of CoM come into play.
“All psykers in 3D6 must pass a LD check or be removed from play”

Now correct me if I am wrong but the Justicar is not actually a psyker, as per the BoP rules.

“The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers”

So essentially after the test is failed, the psyker is removed from play, who is the psyker in this case? It’s the squad. Not the Justicar, who himself is not a psyker.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The whole thing is rather interesting, in that there is some conflict between BoP and CoM. It might even be possible to argue CoM has no effect (as the Justicar himself is not a psyker and so is not removed if he fails LD). Although this is a mute point given the reasoning I present below.

A simple way to look at it is this. The Crucible dose not cause wounds, It dose not even ask you to remove models who fail the LD test. It and asks you to remove psykers who do not PASS the test. So even if you failed the test on the Justicar and removed him from play, the unit of GK’s is still a psyker who has not passed a LD test and so is also removed from play. Theres realy no way around it.

The whole reason it works this way is because CoM asks you to remove psykers who have not passed a LD check. So in the end you can remove the Justicar as many times as you like, but that still leaves the GK squad as a psyker, which has not passed a LD check and is in range of the CoM. Thus CoM requires you remove it from play. If the CoM was worded such that you removed psykers who FAIL the test then the augment that only the Justicar is removed would be a lot stronger.

Come to think of it what if the Justicar was in range but the rest of the squad wasn’t and you did remove him (if you in fact you could given he is not a psyker). Under my reasoning the squad might then be safe from the effects of CoM.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any way I hope my thoughts may re-invigorate this thread given that it was much more interesting before people started yelling at each other.

- Solourus

**Sliggoth**

Several people have stated that its making a save vs a wound that makes something an attack. By this definition a unit that fires and misses with all of its shots has not made an attack....

The act of making a save is the resolution of the attack, the attack has already been made. Just because one misses doesnt mean that there was no attack.

For the crucible, using the crucible instead of firing is the attack. Everything else that happens afterwards is the resolution of tha attack. If it turns out that there are no psychers within the aoe, then the attack fails....but there has still been an attack.

As to specifics on the BoP interaction, I am going to have to wait until I can snag a GK codex. So far there have been a few different spins put forward as to exactly what the BoP states, such as it affecting either models or psychers -- specific details that do seem to matter in this case.

Sliggoth

**Dashofpepper**

Sliggoth wrote:Several people have stated that its making a save vs a wound that makes something an attack. By this definition a unit that fires and misses with all of its shots has not made an attack....

No they haven't. An attack is something with the ability to cause a wound or force a save. And that *is* from the rulebook. Every reference to an attack is something with the ability to cause a wound. An offensive action meant to wound and cause casualties.

Taking a leadership check is not an offensive action meant to wound and cause casualties. The CoM doesn't even kill anything - it just drives them stark raving insane, at which point you remove them from the table as no longer useful. It doesn't wound anything, it doesn't kill anything, it just causes you to test your leadership.

The argument that taking, or being forced to take a leadership check is an attack is ridiculous. When you roll leadership before casting a psychic power, it isn't an attack. When you roll leadership to see if you flee, you're not attacking or being attacked. You're testing.

As I said, the rulebook is pretty explicit about what an attack is, and while the rulebook doesn't define every word in it - common sense should prevail. And since it doesn't at times, the best you can do is look to the rule's use of attacks, what attacks, where it attacks, how many attacks, etc. Characteristic tests are not attacks - they are most commonly the result of an attack or they precede an attack.

And the obvious overriding principle of the entire thing that has been repeatedly mentioned and continually ignored for four pages: Whether the Justicar's leadership is used or not is irrelevant. There are only two available states: Passed leadership, or not on the table. The CoM and BoP don't conflict in this. You can follow both. BoP says that attacks are resolved against the Justicar first, or Knight of flame, and then on any random model in the unit. The crucible says any psyker within 3d6 that didn't pass leadership is removed from play.

Easy!

Step 1: Roll leadership and fail - Justicar is removed and BoP requirements are fulfilled.
Step 2: Psyker remains - remove Knight of the Flame or any random model, BoP requirements still fulfilled.
Step 3: Psyker remains - continue removing models one at a time until the unit that failed leadership either has no psyker left or is removed from play.
Step 4: Crucible Requirements met - no psyker remains in range that has not passed leadership. Brotherhood of Psykers requirement has been met: Justicar was allocated first for removal on failure to pass leadership.

**Aramoro**

Dashofpepper wrote:

Step 1: Roll leadership and fail - Justicar is removed and BoP requirements are fulfilled.
Step 2: Psyker remains - remove Knight of the Flame or any random model, BoP requirements still fulfilled.
Step 3: Psyker remains - continue removing models one at a time until the unit that failed leadership either has no psyker left or is removed from play.
Step 4: Crucible Requirements met - no psyker remains in range that has not passed leadership. Brotherhood of Psykers requirement has been met: Justicar was allocated first for removal on failure to pass leadership.

This is totally incorrect and a spurious reading of the rules. You're assuming an end result, an end state which is not valid. CoM does not say that after the power has resolves there can be no-untested Psykers within 3D6", you are adding that restriction because you think that's what it should be. If you agree that it's an attack then it's resolved against the Justicar or a random model, you don't keep on applying your special rule over and over again until you meet your fabricated end-state.

You really do need to stop just making up rules dash.

**kirsanth**

I read it as removing the unit, as the unit is the psyker and the unit is not targeted.

Akin to Spirit Leech, it is not a shooting attack and has no target, but rather is an effect that affects certain units/models.

**Dashofpepper**

Aramoro wrote:
This is totally incorrect and a spurious reading of the rules. You're assuming an end result, an end state which is not valid. CoM does not say that after the power has resolves there can be no-untested Psykers within 3D6", you are adding that restriction because you think that's what it should be. If you agree that it's an attack then it's resolved against the Justicar or a random model, you don't keep on applying your special rule over and over again until you meet your fabricated end-state.

You really do need to stop just making up rules dash.

And you need to stop plugging your ears and going "nyah nyah, not listening!"

I don't agree that it is an attack, and the rules back it up.

And CoM *DOES* say that there can be no untested psykers within 3d6. They either passed leadership or are not on the table. Only two possibilites. You can no more choose one model from a unit of psykers to remove than you can use CoM to only assign one wound to Eldrad. BoP doesn't tell you to nullify psychic effects after resolving against the Justicar, only to allocate any negative psychic attacks against him first.

Either way it still works.

If it is an attack, the Justicar is removed first, and the remaining unit goes...meeting the criteria for allocation via BoP and removal for CoM.
If it is not an attack, the Justicar is removed first, and the remaining unit goes...meeting the criteria for allocation via BoP and removal for CoM.

If you only remove the Justicar, and then stop - you have not met the conditions for the crucible of Malediction. You removed a member of a psychic unit, but not the psyker, and have not followed the instructions "all psykers must pass leadership or be removed from play." Your justicar is a focal point for your psychic unit, not the only psyker in it.

**Traceoftoxin**

Dashofpepper wrote:
Sliggoth wrote:Several people have stated that its making a save vs a wound that makes something an attack. By this definition a unit that fires and misses with all of its shots has not made an attack....

Step 1: Roll leadership and fail - Justicar is removed and BoP requirements are fulfilled.
Step 2: Psyker remains - remove Knight of the Flame or any random model, BoP requirements still fulfilled.
Step 3: Psyker remains - continue removing models one at a time until the unit that failed leadership either has no psyker left or is removed from play.
Step 4: Crucible Requirements met - no psyker remains in range that has not passed leadership. Brotherhood of Psykers requirement has been met: Justicar was allocated first for removal on failure to pass leadership.

Actually, it's simpler.

The brotherhood of psykers rules turns the ENTIRE UNIT into a SINGLE PSYKER.

Since neither of the bullets in the ability apply to CoM, this is the only part of BoP that we care about. Since each PSYKER takes a test, you take one test for the unit (Since it counts as a single psyker) and if it is failed it's gone.

**Sliggoth**

@ Dash An attack does not have to force a save or cause a wound.

Since we have been using psychic powers fairly often in this thread as examples lets look at a few psychic powers:

1) Mind war. Forces a comparison of adjusted leadership values and can cause wounds.

2) Jotww. Initiative test or the model is removed from the game. (no wounds)

3) Lash of submission. Get to move an opponents models around.

Hmmm, all three of these have a few things in common. They are psychic powers (heh), they are used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon, and GW says that they are attacks.

4) Guide. Reroll failed hits rolls.

5) Tempest wrath. Deep strikers, skimmers etc have to treat terrain as dangerous.

6) Warptime. User gets to reroll hits and wounds.

Hmmm,unless I missed something none of these are attacks.

So it doesnt appear that the ability to cause a wound or make a save is related to an attack.

But....it does appear that replacing the ability to fire during the shooting phase is what counts as an attack.

Sliggoth

**Dashofpepper**

Sliggoth wrote:

But....it does appear that replacing the ability to fire during the shooting phase is what counts as an attack.

Yes, running is DEFINITELY an attack.

Your psychic power analogies....Mind War is an attack, so is JotWW. Lash of Submission is not. Nor is Deceive.

CoM isn't even a psychic power, so you shouldn't compare it to psychic powers....or psychic attacks.

Warptime isn't an attack, nor is Guide, nor is Tempest Wraith. Nor is running.

And...this entire line of conversation is irrelevant anyway, and the selective responses that make me feel that not having this conversation in real time is pointless - because you can choose not to answer the things that defeat your arguments, pretend they weren't said, give any answer you like....

**DutchSage**

I find it strange that there is actual debate about whether or not an weapon that gets used in the shooting phase instead of firing another weapon and incurs a damaging effect on another player is not considered an attack ??

Saying it is a Ld-test and as such does not count just seems silly as it is not that uncommon for an attack to use Ld as a means to wound (Mind War, Neural Shredder from Callidus Assassin come to mind). And neither is the fact that if it does not wound but directly remove from play uncommon from attacks (Wraithcannons and JotWW come to mind here).

So with the premise that it is an attack let us walk through this:

1. Crucible (“All psykers in 3D6 must pass a LD check or be removed from play”) gets used and a unit of Grey Knights is in range

2a. Brotherhood of Psykers tells us they are Psykers that count as a SINGLE psyker for all intends and purposes.

2b. Furthermore Brotherhood of Psykers also tells us how to resolve psychic attacks against a Grey Knight unit.

3. Crucible gets resolved against the Justicar.

4. Justicar either beats the roll and lives, or fails the roll and dies.

5. No further effects on the remainder of the Grey Knight unit from the Crucible.

This satisfies both the rules for the Crucible and the Brotherhood of Psykers as the Crucible general rule (all psykers must make a test) as well as the specific rule of Brotherhood of Psykers (how to deal with psychic attacks) has been satisfied.

**Sliggoth**

Does the justicar only resolve for psychic attacks tho? Because if hes does, then the BOP wont kick in because crucible isnt a psychic attack.

Sliggoth

**MikeMcSomething**

I think most people here realize that CoM will kill the whole unit if it fails one test, but that most people will use it to kill the Justicar (or a random GK) in friendly games, that TO's will houserule the same (and remove it's ability to auto-kill GK vehicles) and that it will be FAQ'd to only kill the Justicar/random GK without GW ever stopping to define "attack".

And do you guys really need to quote huge walls of text at each other? Is communicating succinctly really so hard that your reply needs to be 4 paragraphs, while directly quoting the 5 paragraphs that came before it? Really?

**mrblacksunshine_1978**

MikeMcSomething wrote:I think most people here realize that CoM will kill the whole unit if it fails one test, but that most people will use it to kill the Justicar (or a random GK) in friendly games, that TO's will houserule the same (and remove it's ability to auto-kill GK vehicles) and that it will be FAQ'd to only kill the Justicar/random GK without GW ever stopping to define "attack".

And do you guys really need to quote huge walls of text at each other? Is communicating succinctly really so hard that your reply needs to be 4 paragraphs, while directly quoting the 5 paragraphs that came before it? Really?

I posted the same question that Dash been asking answer for at my gaming store forum. Now realize that this was an in house store rules.

We believe that the CoM only afffect the one model and the not the whole unit.

Dash i know that your wanted answer to your question, but your going to have to wait till there an FAQ

**grayspark**

I think most people here realize that CoM will kill the whole unit if it fails one test, but that most people will use it to kill the Justicar (or a random GK) in friendly games, that TO's will houserule the same (and remove it's ability to auto-kill GK vehicles) and that it will be FAQ'd to only kill the Justicar/random GK without GW ever stopping to define "attack".

Instant-kill GK vehicles?

Whole unit dead with one failed test?

There's no way that it works that way...

And I really think that this whole ruling conversation would be going further (as most are held back) if there would be an agreement on what an "Attack" in 40k is.

Honestly I've always thought it was obvious, an attack would have to be something that is declared, is using a weapon or unit profile to attack. Not taking a ~test~.

For example Unit A shoots at Unit B with Strength 4 Boltgun.

Or Unit A casts Psychic Shooting on Unit B.

But for example something like:

Unit A takes leadership test.

Unit A takes initiative (not due to JotWW).

The perfect example of this would be Mephiston's "Transfixing Gaze". The enemy Independent Character takes a Leadership test at -4 and if failed Mephiston rerolls hits/wounds against that model. The model was not attacked, right?

**MikeMcSomething**

grayspark wrote:Instant-kill GK vehicles?
Whole unit dead with one failed test?

There's no way that it works that way...

Then you haven't really been paying attention to any of the relevant threads. Even if you specifically resolve your whatever/CoM/attack against the Justicar, the entire GK unit is still the psyker triggering the CoM test, and GK vehicles are unable to ''pass Leadership tests" - these aren't even really points worth debating, that's the way they read, and they're flat-out broken interactions that came about because GW codex design sucks, and they will FAQ both of them sometime in the next few months without addressing things like "what is an attack", but in the meantime everyone will be playing them like we know it will be FAQ'ed - vehicles will be immune to CoM for no apparent reason despite their inability to pass the leadership test it calls for, and the Justicar will be removed even though he doesn't have the Psyker rule and the GK unit he's standing in the middle of is specifically declared to be one giant Psyker by their own BoP rule.

**Hulksmash**

The way I read it is you take a test for each unit in range. If a unit fails that test you remove a single model starting w/the Justicar. The BoP takes precedent as it's a more specific rule than the CoM. CoM is meant to affect models w/the Psyker special rule. The GK's don't have that. They have BoP making it the more specific rule. Use the rule that is written.

Dash, I love you bro but you're doing what you've done a few times before and creating connections to get the result you want.

Just like with the beasts play it however you'd want to until it gets FAQ'd but don't be surprised if the result is the same as then

@Mike

It truly amazes me how some people just intentionally create issues within the rules. The rules tell you how to resolve something that affects the unit as a Psyker. It's in the bloody rules. As for Vehicles since it's not clear (unlike how BoP works) I'll be playing the most disadventageous version and killing my vehicle if it takes a test.

**MikeMcSomething**

It's like as players we usually understand what GW is trying to do, but we want to read the rules like they are Magic: The Gathering cards with clearly-defined interactions instead of crap some guy threw together. When you're talking about whether you can give FnP to your harlies, sure, there's some room for debate, but when you're talking about bringing 45 Troops choices to a battle or removing land raiders from the table without a test required, and evaporating whole GK squads it's pretty clear where GW is going to draw the line.

**kirsanth**

Hulksmash wrote: CoM is meant to affect models w/the Psyker special rule. The GK's don't have that.

Correct, they have a rule that says the unit is a psyker. . .

I have never read any posting that puts 'model' into the CoM rules. Simply that Psykers are affected.
The GK have a rule stating the unit is a psyker.

Or am I mis-reading the posts? I have not read the codex.

**Dashofpepper**

Hulksmash wrote:The way I read it is you take a test for each unit in range. If a unit fails that test you remove a single model starting w/the Justicar.

I half agree with you. BoP tells you to start with the Justicar, but doesn't tell you to cease after he is removed. There's no justification to say "You remove a single model and stop" when doing so violates the crucible of malediction - when BoP *does* allow the whole unit to be removed.

The unit is a psyker. Allocate to the Justicar. Fail leadership. Justicar is removed. The unit is still a psyker, having failed leadership....and you continue removing one model at a time at random (per BoP) until the unit is gone from the board (per CoM).

Or, you could just say that it removes the entire unit.

**MikeMcSomething**

It's a problem with resolution in 40k more than anything - there's nothing to state that CoM would do a state check for 'psyker' once before firing like many people are indicating (or would work in a ruleset like M:TG), just like there isn't anything to indicate that CoM poses some sort of philosophical "Well how can this GK unit cast spells if I killed it's Justicar?" question to the players as it hovers around the battlefield waiting for psykers to show up in the middle of it's own activation like Dash is interpreting it.

A more simple example would be to create a unit of homogenous models, but they have the special rule "One of us must always be a Psyker, and when the Psyker in our unit dies, one of us is immediately chosen to be the new psyker in his stead" <- How would CoM work vs that unit? Do you kill the first psyker? There's nothing in the books to tell you that you stop checking after the first one dies, and there's nothing to tell you that you keep checking until the 3d6 bubble from your Haemonc is completely empty of anything that might have been a psyker, or has successfully passed a LD test.