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Grot 6 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:Here in the states, a common practice is to open a GW store in a nearby or in direct competition to the local gaming store that has shown to turn a profit in selling said GW products. I've seen this happen in the Upper New York Area, the Virginia Area, and the North Carolina area, as

I'm going to say this right now:
This has not happened in North Carolina. We've only ever had a single GW shop(down near Charlotte) that I've been aware of since I started in 1997, and it closed almost 4 or 5 years back.

If they'd wanted to do this, they could have opened a shop up when Raleigh had just one conveniently placed shop with regular gaming, a place called Hobby Masters.
They didn't.
In fact, when Hobby Masters closed down because the property managers didn't let them renew their lease--GW could have moved in and gotten a premium spot not far away from them for far cheaper and take over the customer base.

They didn't.

It took almost 3-4 years for a new shop to open up to replace Hobby Masters, and even then it's a 30-40 minute drive from Raleigh.

It did happen.

Concord Mills is way the !@#$ out there, though. Any wonder why they closed down? And by and by remember the stores that were out there? How are they doing today, by the way?

I don't actually remember what stores "that were out there".
Like you said: the location sucked. I never once even visited the place in Concord Mills.

After they went belly up, there was an upsurge of stores to fill the void, but bet you a farm that the minute they come back with the one and two man operations the same things going to happen again.

There was two shops that 'filled the void', I guess.
There's a Hobbytown USA in that area and a place called 'Games HQ'.

I'm pretty sure Hobbytown was there before the CM place shut down though.

If a couple of these one or two man operations opens up down the street from you, or in your local strip mall, what will that impact be again?

THIS is the point, here.

I'm saying that from where I'm seeing it, GW knows exactly what they are doing, and are part in parcel to blaim for the increase by either being intentionally ignorant, negligent, or stupid.

I'm saying that this "Template store" is a sucking chest wound for the company, increasing needlessly on the bottom line. They put the stores up in an already established area, and that they reduce the overall quality of the gaming after they've been in place and !@#$ed the market as much as they possibly can.
My example of Concord mills might not be the be a real good one, but there was if i recall a couple of stores out there at that time, the model is to put a store up in concord mills, they didn't see the oncoming !@#$storm in the increase of cost to run out of a crappy location, and closed down later in the ongoing GW store purge when they closed those stores in ALL of those crappy locations.

Come to think of it, I can see why you said what you did, and I can see why you rebutted that point.

My questions already out there though- What direct impact to your local gaming community have thier stores been? Positive or negative?

What impact will they have if they open up down the street from you, and instead of one store with a staff of five, a few smaller stores, with staffs of ones and twos, such as thier new models?

Grot 6 wrote:If a couple of these one or two man operations opens up down the street from you, or in your local strip mall, what will that impact be again?

The impact is that I no longer have to drive 30-40 minutes to a shop that is, at best for what I'm looking for, a very 'meh' place.
They're heavy into the Flames of War scene, they stock more R/C stuff than 40k/FB/LOTR and have at best a pair of tables that when put together are the size of the table I'm building at my home.

It's nice to go in and chat with the guys or show up for arranged games, but it's just not somewhere I can justify making casual visits to.
I can't even really justify going out there to theoretically get paints(they don't stock Vallejo Model Air, which is what I've been working with a lot more lately since I've been trying to master my airbrush), it costs me more in gas just to get out to the shop than it does for me to order the paints I want through The Warstore.

THIS is the point, here.

I'm saying that from where I'm seeing it, GW knows exactly what they are doing, and are part in parcel to blaim for the increase by either being intentionally ignorant, negligent, or stupid.

GW 'knows exactly what they are doing'--you're right.
Do you remember the original intent of these little two man shops?
They're meant to be 'jump-off points'. They have very limited gaming space, mostly dedicated to demoing and they're also there to show some hobby tips/painting techniques.
From there--they shuffle you to the FLGS.

With that idea--you can't very well have the two-man shops in locations nowhere near FLGSes. The purpose is just pfew, out of there.

I'm saying that this "Template store" is a sucking chest wound for the company, increasing needlessly on the bottom line. They put the stores up in an already established area, and that they reduce the overall quality of the gaming after they've been in place and !@#$ed the market as much as they possibly can.

I don't know that they "reduce the overall quality of the gaming". I can understand the idea though.

My example of Concord mills might not be the be a real good one, but there was if i recall a couple of stores out there at that time, the model is to put a store up in concord mills, they didn't see the oncoming !@#$storm in the increase of cost to run out of a crappy location, and closed down later in the ongoing GW store purge when they closed those stores in ALL of those crappy locations.

Come to think of it, I can see why you said what you did, and I can see why you rebutted that point.

Yeah, I was just trying to make the point that Concord Mills was a really weird thing. From friends I knew in high school who moved down towards there, it was a pretty active place but they just weren't able to justify the cost when the price of the rent went up.

Not entirely sure about that, but it's what I've heard.

My questions already out there though- What direct impact to your local gaming community have thier stores been? Positive or negative?

None. We've never had a GW shop competing with my "local gaming community".

Even when Concord Mills was open, there was just no reason whatsoever to make the trip there if you didn't live around it.

Hobby Masters(and a store that was out in Wake Forest called 'Apocalypse Games' which shut down for reasons I don't know about) had the full cooperation of GW, even at the time when people were insisting that GW was "trying to squash the FLGSes by screwing them over".

What impact will they have if they open up down the street from you, and instead of one store with a staff of five, a few smaller stores, with staffs of ones and twos, such as thier new models?

The store I link to in my sig has a staff of two.
They do just fine. I'd go there more often if they stocked Vallejo Model Air paints or had more campaign based play rather than tournament oriented play.

If GW opened up a shop "down the street from me", I'd probably not notice the difference. Neither place would be supplying what I'm looking for.
The only difference is that GW would be within a much more reasonable distance for me to go down and look for a casual game.
I can't really justify it in most cases to go out to Hangar 18.

Grot 6 wrote:I never would have guessed!


"So while the US Dakkanauts for the most part do not see the need for the retail network they are necessary for the larger whole of GW (i.e. not the US). GW simply can not withdraw retail shop presence on a large scale to reduce costs without detrementally effecting their sales and market placement. New games stores will not spring up in their place and new blood will not be brought in to either the GW HHHobby or the greater wargaming hobby."- Notprop


How did you come to this conclusion?

Those shops are the sucking chest wounds of the company, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is also the very reason that they close down said shops in areas that's lose profit to tax marginal increases past the acceptable rate. Acceptable in the terms of a business model that these stores are templated off of.
( and yes, they are standard templated from a set one size fits all model)

Here in the states, a common practice is to open a GW store in a nearby or in direct competition to the local gaming store that has shown to turn a profit in selling said GW products. I've seen this happen in the Upper New York Area, the Virginia Area, and the North Carolina area, as well as have heard of the SAME issue happening in other parts of the states. If psed this same question, of course you get a "Oh, no, WE don't do things like that...." sort of a speal, but after the fact, and when the dust settles, either one or both of the shops, BOTH The GW shop and the LGS wind up memories.

This is just how the UK was 20 years ago but GW drove out the FLGS so now there are very few. The only ones I've seen survive are the Forbidden Planet ones, but the reason they've held on is because they themselves became a franchise.

I honestly think the most damaging thing they've done is to make their stores one man only

It put insane amounts of pressure on that person to get everything done, but as I understand it the pay isn't that good either, so whats the incentive for taking the job?

Even if you loved the hobby that much, would it be worth it? You'd be stressing yourself out to get anything done.

It also effects customers by the stores having lower quality of service, because seriously, how is that one person going to help people paint, run games, help customers etc

Im just lucky the one I visit in Macarthur Sqaure has three employees most of the time

Are there any other GW stores in Toronto since the one in the Eatons closed? The only other is out in Mississauga, right?

I only ever go to FLGs. For the reason of convenience and service. I can order whatever I want through them at a discount or pick up whatever in store and play a game for free without any stupid hassle or worse having to do it in a noisy, ugly mall. Plus I really believe that its a good idea to support local gaming, a good FLG makes you feel more like a hobbyist than a consumer.

The more I think about it, I think GW removing stores from all but the most grandiose of locales (Warhammer World: why not one in North America? :( ) might be a good idea. It has worked in TO, these local clubs/stores have flourished -though admittedly I can think of one that just went out of business- but still, I cant possibly think of anything wrong about letting a natural gaming community grow with the help of GW as an second party distributor. Hell it would even buy into their exclusive "we are porsches" ideology.

Lowering prices would be enough advertising in itself.

As soon as GW mention a price drop, word-of-mouth would rocket, and they'd sell more even before the drop.
Gamers know GW for hikes, and a confirmed drop policy would be huge, even if the drop isn't.

Skinnereal wrote:Lowering prices would be enough advertising in itself.

As soon as GW mention a price drop, word-of-mouth would rocket, and they'd sell more even before the drop.
Gamers know GW for hikes, and a confirmed drop policy would be huge, even if the drop isn't.

They might be worried it would give out the wrong impression to investors and appear to admit they are in trouble. They'd prefer to stick to the current strategy with gusto.

The changes the company probably needs to ensure future success require a massive overhauls of things like their their retail approach, advertising, web presence and closure of stores. That's in part a massive gamble but also requires huge competence and confidence with strong leadership. I don't get the impression that the current team running GW are all that smart, their approach seems very simple and crude which is to continually raise prices, cuts some costs and put colossal pressures on staff. Their seeming resistance to adapting and using the growth of the internet seems almost archaic, their advertising approach in general seems inward looking, they don't foster the gamer community and alienate customers. They seem more obsessed with protecting their IP in the short term than addressing real future problems, maybe it's all a distraction to keep investors and the like happy because the senior management are good at making a big deal out of 'protecting IP' but don't really have the acumen to ensure the company is safe for the long future.

I think the changes GW need to make, whatever they are exactly, need to be bold and decisive but also shrewd. The current CEO and team don't have it in them IMO, they are just propping up the same poor strategy that has been applied for years and years, when they run out of cost cutting measures to hide behind what then? I think before anything else the current senior management have to go and they need to bring in new people with new ideas and some sort of vision beyond "raise prices, cut some costs"

obsidianaura wrote:I'm reserving judgment till the new Tomb King Battalion is released.

From what I hear it's exaclty the same but with 8 more skellitons.

If the price remains the same I'll be impressed.

I'm guessing they'll bring the price up to £55 which is "fair" in line with their prices.

If it's raised even higher it's just simple money grabbing

OK prices are out now. They increased the price of the Tomb kings Battalion by £17.50 and added 8 skeletons. A box of 16 skeletons costs £18.50!!! Those 8 skeletons £ per model are more expensive than a space marine

I knew they'd put the price up but this is a ridiculous price increase.

I strongly advise everyone buys up the old tomb king box set while theres some left.

that price increase is INSANE!

When I saw your post I thought you were joking but I went on their site and checked it!

all I can say is W.T.F.. I am actually stunned.

I was considering starting a Tomb King force with a Batallion/codex but now I think I will be scrapping that idea.

I wouldnt be suprised if its the first wave upping the prices of battleforces/battalions (blood angels before it)

I know right?! It seems unbelivable even for GW...

I just ordered the old tomb king force from blueboargaming for £42. I suggest you quickly do the same if you still want to start an army

my local hobby shop has one still in stock, but I dont actually have the spare cash for it currently as I just paid off a bunch of bills

was hoping to begin my tomb king force next month with the new codex (and my birthday lol)

but tbh I doubt I will bother now, unless I can find the cash to buy the cheaper battalion now!

£70.... what a joke...

That's why god invented credit cards

Otherwise ebay.

Or just buy from another maker....mantic?

Yeah trouble is its not really appropriate for tomb kings, they're fine for Vampire Counts

obsidianaura wrote:
OK prices are out now. They increased the price of the Tomb kings Battalion by £17.50 and added 8 skeletons. A box of 16 skeletons costs £18.50!!! Those 8 skeletons £ per model are more expensive than a space marine

I knew they'd put the price up but this is a ridiculous price increase.

I strongly advise everyone buys up the old tomb king box set while theres some left.

They have been doing this for some time now: Big boxes have gradually became worse deals. Someone made a cost comparison of all WH40k Battleforces, and newest ones gave least bang for a pound.

It's a shame these are so expensive because they're purty.

https://www.crocodilegames.com/store/itemDetail.cfm?prodID=406&catID=31

I was considering mantic.


What I will probably do is just buy the Vampires counts book, dig up what I have from the loft for them (some old bits/pieces) and buy mantic models for the rest.

Tomb kings and burn in the desert for the new prices GW are expecting me to pay!

Ive noticed that to Backfire, the blood angels battleforce being the best example for that.

Just sent em a semi serious, semi satirical emailo asking them to justify basicly another £20 for 8 skeles and if thats the price of the future, £17.50 for 8

Asuron wrote:I honestly think the most damaging thing they've done is to make their stores one man only

It put insane amounts of pressure on that person to get everything done, but as I understand it the pay isn't that good either, so whats the incentive for taking the job?

None of the stores near me are like this, they all have 2-3 staff in when I go by. But these are in busy areas.

But the wage thing is tough one. I looked into GW jobs recently, saw the pay and walked away. A store Manager is on less than me, for that responsibility I'd want a raise not a pay cut. But at the same time they are far from the only company that employs at minimum wage, and right now my girlfriend would take minimum wage if it meant getting a job. :(

Ugavine wrote:

Asuron wrote:I honestly think the most damaging thing they've done is to make their stores one man only

It put insane amounts of pressure on that person to get everything done, but as I understand it the pay isn't that good either, so whats the incentive for taking the job?

None of the stores near me are like this, they all have 2-3 staff in when I go by. But these are in busy areas.

But the wage thing is tough one. I looked into GW jobs recently, saw the pay and walked away. A store Manager is on less than me, for that responsibility I'd want a raise not a pay cut. But at the same time they are far from the only company that employs at minimum wage, and right now my girlfriend would take minimum wage if it meant getting a job. :(

Looking at the website it looks like they pay the same sort of wage I used to get when I worked in retail. Supermarket, highstreet clothes store or GW. I know where I would rather work for the same wage, but I do think people in retail are under paid and over worked in genral. If it was up to me shops would be banned from opening Sundays for a start and the working time directive would be fully implimented.

A very interesting post on the blog 'The back 40k', that pertains directly to some of the discussion going on here. I think that everyone should read it:

http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/04/help-kirby-is-eating-our-hobby.html

I went on a tour with a friend of mine in the Memphis,TN factory. They said that the machine to press the molds cost over $100,000 to have made. Didn't mention the price of the individual molds themselves. I'm pretty sure they make a lot of the space marine sprues there; I think it was Tactical Squad sprues and such? Maybe they said something about Cadians and Rhinos as well. They had 9-12 of those machines, and they also spin-cast some metal models there as well. Don't know about the price of making the "spin-casters". But you're looking at over a million in the presses alone, plus molds, labor, materials, and floor space. After that you have the box, plastic wrap, and shipping.
I don't find their prices all that outrageous for what I get- Awesome models that I not only can display, but have rules to play a game with as well. I don't really understand all the hate towards GW, but maybe I haven't been around long enough to know why I should(not trying to sound confrontational here, sorry if it comes off like that). Anyway, I'll at least keep supporting the hobby even if I have to play alone in my mom's basement.

aerethan wrote:My second purchase after winning the lotto would be majority share at GW. My first purchase would be a Lotus Elise. Them's some sexy cars.

Then you would become that which you were against. I heard Tom Kirby and Mark Wells liked those fancy-pants automobiles. I might buy anew car but nothing more than what I need, same for a house - only what I need (see Warren Buffet), what I would most definately do would be to fire Wells and Kirby then re-hire them as bathroom attendants.

Sinful Hero wrote: I went on a tour with a friend of mine in the Memphis,TN factory. They said that the machine to press the molds cost over $100,000 to have made. Didn't mention the price of the individual molds themselves. I'm pretty sure they make a lot of the space marine sprues there; I think it was Tactical Squad sprues and such? Maybe they said something about Cadians and Rhinos as well. They had 9-12 of those machines, and they also spin-cast some metal models there as well. Don't know about the price of making the "spin-casters". But you're looking at over a million in the presses alone, plus molds, labor, materials, and floor space. After that you have the box, plastic wrap, and shipping.
I don't find their prices all that outrageous for what I get- Awesome models that I not only can display, but have rules to play a game with as well. I don't really understand all the hate towards GW, but maybe I haven't been around long enough to know why I should(not trying to sound confrontational here, sorry if it comes off like that). Anyway, I'll at least keep supporting the hobby even if I have to play alone in my mom's basement.

Well, that's something that hopefully won't ever have to happen to you!

The point is, as was made in the blog post I linked above, that the few people at the heart of the company, and running it, have sweet f-all interest in actually the hobby itself. So for all of the cost cutting measures, the cutting of staff and massive price hike of units, then tailoring of rules to sell more of those kits, the things which are most complained about by the gaming community, what is done with that additional profit? It's used for a dividend payment, so the shareholders, and more importantly Mr. Kirby, can get a nice big lump of money in their pocket.

And in the meantime the hundreds of thousands of people, if not more, who enjoy the hobby around the world get a worse experience. Of course I will continue to love the hobby, and GW has been an important and enjoyable part of my life, but that doesn't mean I have to just shrug my shoulders at each ill-advised new policy that comes out. It's painful to see something you feel an emotional attachment towards (and how can it be any other way when you have invested so much time in it?) when it's having its face driven into the dirt.

Sinful Hero wrote: I went on a tour with a friend of mine in the Memphis,TN factory. They said that the machine to press the molds cost over $100,000 to have made.

Really? I'd say well over because that is cheap compaired to most industrial machinery in the UK.

That's what the plant manager told the group if I remember correctly. Of course, it is possible I may have misheard, and that was the cost of the molds themselves, but I'm fairly sure that wasn't what he said.

The best advice I could give, looking at GW's recent prises is stick with the army you have got