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I don't think there is a basic right to drink at tournaments.

There is certainly a broad middle ground where venues and people support it in the right circumstances.

There is also a substantial (24%) of people who aren't OK with it.

Dashofpepper wrote:

offering to buy someone a beer who isn't drinking one at a beer event is poor behavior....and shows a lack of respect.

There's nothing disrespectful about offering someone a beer, or a soda, or a coffee, or whatever their drink of choice, in fact it's downright generous. I don't think anyone is saying that.

The issue as I see it is that people have problem with the drunken/belligerent behavior often associated with drinking, which is a legitimate concern. Calling that bs is akin to sticking your head in the sand.

Having a couple beers during a game is fine, but what if I'm that person's 5th opponent for the day and they're on beer number 11+? Am I allowed to be concerned then? I think I am, you seem to think I have no right.


Also, on a side note, these poll options are stupid, and very black and white. According tot he OP, you're either in the camp where drinking is absolutely fine or it absolutely isn't, when a lot of the responses here seem to be in a grey area somewhere in the middle. Personally, I don't care if you're going to drink during our game, I only care if you're going to be a belligerent moron while you do it, and I reserve the right to ask for a different opponent if I get paired against your poor-judgement having ass in the event that the latter is true.

I don't like drunkards. I may like the person when they're sober, but drunkards are generally worthless.

They should have two tourneys - those that drink and those that don't.

To play in the drinker catagory - you have to blow a .1 on a breath-alyzer before each game.........that should make for some "interesting" stories.....

(this was an idea they were going to use for a painting competition at the Waagh)

Polonius wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Some of the responses in here are pure bullgak. OMG DISRESPECTFUL! HOW DARE YOU! That attitude is ridiculous.

where are all of those responses? That aren't actually referring to being drunk?

for a guy that's trying not to pick a fight you seem to be consistently misportraying the opposition. Yes, a lot of people dislike drinking, for personal and moral reasons. It's an addictive drug that can (but doesn't always) hurt both the user and those around him. A lot of people think the benefits outweigh the costs (and I'm one of them), but it's a pretty reasonable attitude to simply not like drinking.

So yes, this means that some of the people you've played ahve mostly likely secretly not liked that you were drinking.

I quoted one for Gornall's benefit. And yours apparently.

Misportraying....seems to mostly involve people selectively reading and choosing how to interpret what I'm writing other than at face value. People are welcome to dislike drinking. If you dislike OTHER people drinking, then you either shouldn't attend an event that has drinking as part of it, or you should be polite.

And if people secretly don't like that their opponent is having a drink....that's perfectly fine. Its when they open their mouth to express that opinion TO their opponent, or here...that a boundary gets crossed of "minding your own business."

Monster Rain: You are grossly overstating my reactions. I'm neither angry nor demonstrating an inability to stand someone disagreeing with me. You tell me not to say the same thing over and over again, but I keep HAVING to say it over and over again because you didn't get it the first time.
----------------------------------------
My opinion (again): Outside of law or contractual obligation, no one has ANY RIGHT to try forcing another person to conform to their own personal beliefs, or attempting to punish them for not doing so.
-----------------------------------------
The only disagreement with me in this thread is the argument that drinking should not be allowed at tournaments, and that offering to buy someone a beer who isn't drinking one is disrespectful.

And...again...I have the same stance on all things where one person is trying to force another person into a behavior that has nothing to do with legality. Refusing to play against someone who's army isn't painted to your personal standard. I disagree. Forcing another person into service to you (slavery): I disagree. Labeling all Jews as evil and burning them: I disagree.

That's right....I did it. Those are all degrees on the same sliding scale of intolerance. And if I'm a hypocrite for being intolerant of intolerance, I'm happy to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bunker wrote:

The issue as I see it is that people have problem with the drunken/belligerent behavior often associated with drinking, which is a legitimate concern. Having a couple beers during a game is fine, but what if I'm that person's 5th opponent for the day and they're on beer number 11+? Am I allowed to be concerned then? I think I am, you seem to think I have no right.

And I've said nothing counter to that opinion. The only objections I am raising are to the "Drinking has no place at tournaments" crowd. Despite my best efforts at literacy and passionate explanation, it seems like some folks seem to think I am defending the right to get blitzed and become bellligerent. Maybe they've had a few too many drinks.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gornall wrote:If I am happily enjoying my coke, what would make someone think that I would want a beer? If I wanted a beer I would be drinking one to begin with. Might just be me though. If you offered to buy me a round of what I was having, though, I would get your next round...

I think that drinking in moderation is fine... Getting tipsy... Not so much. Personally, if I am in a non-bar setting I allow a drink per hour. That way I can enjoy a drink if I wish without having to worry about getting too tipsy. YMMV

Or, how about a sample of what really happened.

I finish one of my games, and the player next to me has the most ridiculously beautifully converted and painted army. I've got pictures, they're being uploaded - but his army is literally a playable diorama of a Blood Angel vs. Tau fight. Farsight has his power sword carving into the Dreadnought's chest, plasma is spilling out...the conversion is his actual model for it...simply beyond words. He tells me how he did the plasma effects, and I ask him if I can buy him a beer for the privilege of having seen such a masterpiece.

The guy playing Necrons - I bought him a beer because he was brave enough to bring Necrons. An older guy in the corner hanging out by himself - I hadn't seen him socializing with anyone at the event, so I struck up a conversation with him and subsequently bought him a beer. The guy who won best painted....again, I have pictures. We talked for 10 minutes, he was walking me through his conversions and how he turned Grey Knights into Chaos Marines (he has a Dreadknight converted Soul Grinder that is absolutely beastly), and bought him a beer for taking the time to chat with me. I bought the TO a beer as a sign of appreciation for hosting the event.

Etc.

If someone offers you a beer, and you don't want one...all you have to say is, "Nah, I'm good but thanks!"

Some of the responses in here are pure bullgak. OMG DISRESPECTFUL! HOW DARE YOU! That attitude is ridiculous.

+1 DoP

ITT: Loud minority appearing to be the majority, as a result of the internet.

Clearly, drinking occurs at a great many GT and other such "official" tournies. Hell, deep down, I probably built my Daemons so that I wouldn't have to drown my sorrows in a bottle of makers mark after surgically removing Blood Angel boots from my Tau's rear ends. (*DISCLAIMER&* This is hyperbole. A popular method of writing in the United States. Gross exaggeration for comedic effect. Don't go calling me an alcoholic, I did not literally drink an entire bottle of Makers Mark during every tourny. Even if I did, it would be none of your business.) Nearly every large convention center style event I have been to, has had booze available, in some form or another, within reasonable distance from the gaming tables.

If someone is drunk and disorderly... do the same thing you would do if they were SOBER and disorderly. Call a TO.

Otherwise, leave us happy, functioning, social drinkers... to our own devices... you know.. the devices that have been a part of society for literally as long as there has been recorded history.

Dashofpepper wrote:And...again...I have the same stance on all things where one person is trying to force another person into a behavior that has nothing to do with legality. Refusing to play against someone who's army isn't painted to your personal standard. I disagree. Forcing another person into service to you (slavery): I disagree. Labeling all Jews as evil and burning them: I disagree.

That's right....I did it. Those are all degrees on the same sliding scale of intolerance. And if I'm a hypocrite for being intolerant of intolerance, I'm happy to be.

So you just Godwin'd the thread by equating stopping you from drinking while playing Warhams to the Holocaust and Nazis? /slowclap

Dashofpepper wrote:Monster Rain: You are grossly overstating my reactions. I'm neither angry nor demonstrating an inability to stand someone disagreeing with me. You tell me not to say the same thing over and over again, but I keep HAVING to say it over and over again because you didn't get it the first time.

Your disagreement isn't with me.

I'm talking about your inability to deal with others that disagree with you.

As to being intolerant of intolerance, you're really reaching. You don't have a fundamental right to drink, so you're getting a mite melodramatic here. As for equating this discussion of drinking to excess at Space Manz tournaments to the holocaust (Godwin wept) I'm going to use your own phrases:

"Bullgak" and "off your rocker."

zedsdead wrote:
However a T.O. that allows drinking at a tournament they host where they accept registrations from kids under the age of 18 isnt making a wise choice.

Creating a situation that might possibly expose a child to a drinker is pretty darn irresponsable.

I take my son with me to many tournaments and i would be pretty pissed if my son was at a table with a guy who was drinking.

Yes and when I have a family banquet, the little ones must stay at home. Restaurants that serve alcohol, should also ban kids under 18.

So I have a question, when you drink do you run with your beer into a closet, and drink there in the dark?

But in all honesty I can understand your fear that your child may see a stumbling, slurring, inebriated "drinker" and think... Wow that's what I want to be...

Dashofpepper wrote:And if people secretly don't like that their opponent is having a drink....that's perfectly fine. Its when they open their mouth to express that opinion TO their opponent, or here...that a boundary gets crossed of "minding your own business."

It ain't "none of my business", you're wasting my goddamned time playing me drunk ya boozer! Play me sober. Drunkards are trash. Hell, even stoners are better than drunkards, at least they're typically less likely to try to grab my ass or make some dumbass slurred pickup line.

Ysclyth wrote:Yes and when I have a family banquet, the little ones must stay at home. Restaurants that serve alcohol, should also ban kids under 18.

So I have a question, when you drink do you run with your beer into a closet, and drink there in the dark?

But in all honesty I can understand your fear that your child may see a stumbling, slurring, inebriated "drinker" and think... Wow that's what I want to be...

At a restaurant, there is no chance that your child might be forced to sit with a drunk; the same isn't true at a tournament, where pairings may indeed match underage players against someone who is drinking.

Monster Rain wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Monster Rain: You are grossly overstating my reactions. I'm neither angry nor demonstrating an inability to stand someone disagreeing with me. You tell me not to say the same thing over and over again, but I keep HAVING to say it over and over again because you didn't get it the first time.

Your disagreement isn't with me.

I'm talking about your inability to deal with others that disagree with you.

As to being intolerant of intolerance, you're really reaching. You don't have a fundamental right to drink, so you're getting a mite melodramatic here. As for equating this discussion of drinking to excess at Space Manz tournaments to the holocaust (Godwin wept) I'm going to use your own phrases:

"Bullgak" and "off your rocker."

Actually. Given the fact that we (Americans) live in a country where you have the constitutional right, within the confines of the law, do whatever the hell you want... (the whole 'free country' schpiel) and (correct me if I'm wrong here) the 'open container' laws really only pertain to being out of doors... if I drop a nip of the captain from a flask in my pocket into the dixie of coke I just got at the refreshment stand... and you don't like it... you can literally whine and complain and speak your mind about it all day long... but you quite literally can not stop me.

As Americans, we have the fundemental right (within the law, within our borders) to do whatever the hell we want.

*waves a gigantic flag and loads his shotgun*

Seriously though. This is a "mind your own business" situation.

If they are stumbling, knocking over the table, stealing your girlfriend and incomprehensible, then they are drunk and disorderly, which is against the law.

But if they are getting their drink on, while rolling some d6.... then it's quite literally their right to do so.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't think there is a basic right to drink at tournaments.

There is certainly a broad middle ground where venues and people support it in the right circumstances.

There is also a substantial (24%) of people who aren't OK with it.

I'd also note, although I haven't explored it, the issue of drinkers around minors could be, well, an issue.
1. Until you're 21 you can't drink in the US. Thats a large segment of "adult" players who can't drink.
2. While it may be less of an issue at a multiday GT, the title is "tourneys." I'd proffer this would be much more of an issue there. As a parent, if they found out Jr. was at a tournament where there was booze about there's a chance they'd freak, like in calling cops or suing them level freak.

Cottonjaw wrote:Actually. Given the fact that we (Americans) live in a country where you have the constitutional right, within the confines of the law, do whatever the hell you want... (the whole 'free country' schpiel) and (correct me if I'm wrong here) the 'open container' laws really only pertain to being out of doors... if I drop a nip of the captain from a flask in my pocket into the dixie of coke I just got at the refreshment stand... and you don't like it... you can literally whine and complain and speak your mind about it all day long... but you quite literally can not stop me.

As Americans, we have the fundemental right (within the law, within our borders) to do whatever the hell we want.

Gah. No. No, you don't have a fundamental right to do whatever the hell you want.

Just about every tournament occurs on private property. The owner of private property DOES have the right to place constraints on your presence there. Moreover, every state places limitations on where and when alcohol may be purchased; some also place constraints on where it may be consumed.

Bunker wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

offering to buy someone a beer who isn't drinking one at a beer event is poor behavior....and shows a lack of respect.

There's nothing disrespectful about offering someone a beer, or a soda, or a coffee, or whatever their drink of choice, in fact it's downright generous. I don't think anyone is saying that.

I am potentially. If you just offered a minor a drink you may have committed a crime.

Cottonjaw wrote:As Americans, we have the fundemental right (within the law, within our borders) to do whatever the hell we want.

USA! USA!

I think you'll find, upon reading some(any) laws about drinking in public you'd find that it's not quite as cut and dried as you think it is. Also, as fun as it is to jump into a thread that you've clearly barely read and start scrapping you might want to actually find out what the actual opinions of the participants are.

Cottonjaw wrote:If they are stumbling, knocking over the table, stealing your girlfriend and incomprehensible, then they are drunk and disorderly, which is against the law.

Which is where the overwhelming majority, myself included, draw the line. Otherwise, drink a couple of beers. I'll be doing so myself.

Melissia wrote:I don't like drunkards. I may like the person when they're sober, but drunkards are generally worthless.

True that.

Janthkin wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:Actually. Given the fact that we (Americans) live in a country where you have the constitutional right, within the confines of the law, do whatever the hell you want... (the whole 'free country' schpiel) and (correct me if I'm wrong here) the 'open container' laws really only pertain to being out of doors... if I drop a nip of the captain from a flask in my pocket into the dixie of coke I just got at the refreshment stand... and you don't like it... you can literally whine and complain and speak your mind about it all day long... but you quite literally can not stop me.

As Americans, we have the fundemental right (within the law, within our borders) to do whatever the hell we want.

Gah. No. No, you don't have a fundamental right to do whatever the hell you want.

Just about every tournament occurs on private property. The owner of private property DOES have the right to place constraints on your presence there. Moreover, every state places limitations on where and when alcohol may be purchased; some also place constraints on where it may be consumed.

If the tournament owner STATES that drinking is prohibited, then so be it.

If no statement is made, or if booze is present (which is the norm), then until told otherwise, the drinker is in the clear.

And I've been in this hobby since 1999 and have never heard of a "dry tourney" except, obviously, at game stores and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:As Americans, we have the fundemental right (within the law, within our borders) to do whatever the hell we want.

USA! USA!

I think you'll find, upon reading some(any) laws about drinking in public you'd find that it's not quite as cut and dried as you think it is. Also, as fun as it is to jump into a thread that you've clearly barely read and start scrapping you might want to actually find out what the actual opinions of the participants are.

I've read, and followed the entire thread.

Assumptions about me assuming? *whistles* I'll just leave that one alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point I'm trying to make, is that unless the tournament specifically states that drinking is prohibited in the gaming area. Or if it is at a location where drinking would be out of place (game store)....

Then you do, have a fundemental right, to let whatever liquid you want, fall down your throat hole.

I think we can do without spiralling into the abyss of arguing about arguing and making assumptions about other poster's assumptions about your assumptions with regards to their own assumptions.

... or something like that anyway, I got lost about mid way through that in a hell of my own making. Thanks a lot internet !

Disagreement or debating is fine, let's please leave out the "subtle" digs and personal comments please.
Much obliged.

Cottonjaw wrote:Assumptions about me assuming? *whistles* I'll just leave that one alone.

It wasn't much of a leap, considering your statements.

You were acting like I had a problem with drinking at tournaments, which I have never said. In fact, I've repeatedly stated the opposite.

Either you assumed something, or didn't comprehend what you'd been reading. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, let's no go any further OT. At least not in this direction.

Monster Rain wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:Assumptions about me assuming? *whistles* I'll just leave that one alone.

It wasn't much of a leap, considering your statements.

You were acting like I had a problem with drinking at tournaments, which I have never said. In fact, I've repeatedly stated the opposite.

Either you assumed something, or didn't comprehend what you'd been reading. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Weeeellll *internet handshake*. No offense taken, and I honestly wasn't mad, I was just trying to illustrate a point.

To keep us on topic: Has anyone actually seen this conversation outside of a forum? I mean I never particularly noticed anyone opposed to drinking, or a tournament information sheet saying "No alcohol may be consumed at this event."

What I'm wondering is; has this issue ever come up in anyones tournament experience (and I don't mean stories about johnny drunko breaking your land raider) I mean the tournament specifically banning alcohol.

Sorry if I come off a little rough, I am a sailor after all.

Janthkin wrote:At a restaurant, there is no chance that your child might be forced to sit with a drunk; the same isn't true at a tournament, where pairings may indeed match underage players against someone who is drinking.

Well maybe I have been to different restaurants than you. But sitting at the same table and sitting right next a particular person does not create a magic wall which allows you to be in your own world unaware of whats happening 3 feet from you.

I think this comes to what we are perceiving as drinking though. If I am having a beer while I'm playing a 14yo and his mother comes up and chews my ear off. I will get livid with her for pretending her child has never seen a beer commercial.

Cottonjaw wrote:What I'm wondering is; has this issue ever come up in anyones tournament experience (and I don't mean stories about johnny drunko breaking your land raider) I mean the tournament specifically banning alcohol.

No, because I think it's a more or less common sense issue.

Most people, as in this thread, are okay with drinking until you become a problem because of it.

Do they have tournaments in Utah?

Ysclyth wrote:

Janthkin wrote:At a restaurant, there is no chance that your child might be forced to sit with a drunk; the same isn't true at a tournament, where pairings may indeed match underage players against someone who is drinking.

Well maybe I have been to different restaurants than you. But sitting at the same table and sitting right next a particular person does not create a magic wall which allows you to be in your own world unaware of whats happening 3 feet from you.

I think this comes to what we are perceiving as drinking though. If I am having a beer while I'm playing a 14yo and his mother comes up and chews my ear off. I will get livid with her for pretending her child has never seen a beer commercial.

Well outside of the Soviet Union, drunks areusually thrown out of restaurants that have children patrons. Is it not there also?

Dashofpepper wrote:
I quoted one for Gornall's benefit. And yours apparently.

I saw that. He said that offering drinks as a means of showing you have the right to drink is disrespectful. It still didn't say that drinking by itself is disrespectful.

Misportraying....seems to mostly involve people selectively reading and choosing how to interpret what I'm writing other than at face value. People are welcome to dislike drinking. If you dislike OTHER people drinking, then you either shouldn't attend an event that has drinking as part of it, or you should be polite.

To what extent do most tournaments have drinking as an aspect? In the Great Lakes region, I've never seen anybody drink at a tournament, but my experience is only three states (ohio, western PA, MI). So I dont' consider most tournaments to really be "wet" events.

And if people secretly don't like that their opponent is having a drink....that's perfectly fine. Its when they open their mouth to express that opinion TO their opponent, or here...that a boundary gets crossed of "minding your own business."

hmmm. I think context matters a lot here. I'd agree that if it's a legitly wet event, than tough cookies.

My opinion (again): Outside of law or contractual obligation, no one has ANY RIGHT to try forcing another person to conform to their own personal beliefs, or attempting to punish them for not doing so.

Nobody is telling anybody that they don't have the right to be a jerk. But people have the right to call them out as one.

Are people forcing you to not drink? Then shut up about force. If you have the right to drink, then somebody else has the right to ask you not to. So, it sounds like you want people to respect your right to free choice while not respecting the right of others to make a request.

In other words, people have to deal with your drinking, but you don't like dealing with people's feelings on the matter.

Frazzled wrote:

Ysclyth wrote:

Janthkin wrote:At a restaurant, there is no chance that your child might be forced to sit with a drunk; the same isn't true at a tournament, where pairings may indeed match underage players against someone who is drinking.

Well maybe I have been to different restaurants than you. But sitting at the same table and sitting right next a particular person does not create a magic wall which allows you to be in your own world unaware of whats happening 3 feet from you.

I think this comes to what we are perceiving as drinking though. If I am having a beer while I'm playing a 14yo and his mother comes up and chews my ear off. I will get livid with her for pretending her child has never seen a beer commercial.

Well outside of the Soviet Union, drunks areusually thrown out of restaurants that have children patrons. Is it not there also?

My original comment was about "drinkers" not drunks, entirely different things. As far as I understand the words, a drinker is a person who drinks alcohol, a drunk is a person who drinks to much.

Yes in the USA, they throw drunks out of restaurants, but the don't throw "drinkers" out.

Polonius wrote:Are people forcing you to not drink? Then shut up about force. If you have the right to drink, then somebody else has the right to ask you not to. So, it sounds like you want people to respect your right to free choice while not respecting the right of others to make a request.

In other words, people have to deal with your drinking, but you don't like dealing with people's feelings on the matter.

That's right. If you show up across the table from me at a GT that includes drinking, and I've got a cup of booze in front of me, and you say "Please don't drink during our game" I'm going to respond with "Please don't open your mouth again." If you or someone else is not emotionally stable enough to be in the presence of an adult having a drink (do not confuse this with being blitzed) because of personal issues involving alcohol, then you should have stayed home.

Trying to make the world conform to you....not so hot. And from these poll answers, 24% of people (77 people) either believe that drinking has no place in tournaments....or will go a step further to actually be OFFENDED if someone is drinking in their presence.

That's why I used the word dysfunctional earlier in the thread. 16% of the poll selection would be offended by someone drinking at a tournament. The extremely vocal minority. If I'm enjoying myself at an event, buy myself a beer, and my opponent asks me to put it away because he doesn't like the smell of it....I *am* going to tell them that they should probably pack up and leave if they can't handle being at an event where drinking is allowed/encouraged.

Polonius, we're going to just have to disagree about what being disrespectful constitutes.

Frankly I consider drunkards to be disrespectful by default (just being drunk around other people is disrespectful to them) anyway, so I'm gonna have to disagree as well

So does drinking a few drinks turn someone into a drunkard?

Personally I can drink quite a few drinks before I even become "buzzed". So at a tournament unless I've had more than 4 drinks in the past 1 hr you probably wouldn't even notice.