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Arguing about the fact that his list was "illegal" is ridiculous. If you never once used the item in question then technically you are playing with a handicap, as you spent points you never could use. I could give my Archon a flickerfield upgrade, but due to the fact that i can't use a vehicle upgrade on an infantry unit, those 10 points are effectively wasted.

It shouldn't if happened, obviously, but the realist in me cannot accept a handicap as reason for expulsion.

wait, what?

So based on your experiences with BA, do you feel that Splinter cannon shooting is any effective vs FNP marines and how annoying are Stormravens?

Frazzled wrote:wait, what?

\
He's using the 'it was a silly upgrade anyway' defense that Dash posted on the previous page.

pretre wrote:

Frazzled wrote:wait, what?

\
He's using the 'it was a silly upgrade anyway' defense that Dash posted on the previous page.

That's actually not the argument i used at all. If the item in question was never used, it can effectively be ignored. If he had tried to use it in combat i would agree that it was a form of cheating, but the fact remains it wasn't.

It's irrelevant.

Night's Blood wrote:

pretre wrote:

Frazzled wrote:wait, what?

\
He's using the 'it was a silly upgrade anyway' defense that Dash posted on the previous page.

That's actually not the argument i used at all. If the item in question was never used, it can effectively be ignored. If he had tried to use it in combat i would agree that it was a form of cheating, but the fact remains it wasn't.

It's irrelevant.

So if I had an extra landraider full of TH/SS terminators that I just added to my list, that's cool as long as I don't move, shoot or assault with them? The items in question were never used, so they can be effectively ignored.

pretre wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:

pretre wrote:

Frazzled wrote:wait, what?

\
He's using the 'it was a silly upgrade anyway' defense that Dash posted on the previous page.

That's actually not the argument i used at all. If the item in question was never used, it can effectively be ignored. If he had tried to use it in combat i would agree that it was a form of cheating, but the fact remains it wasn't.

It's irrelevant.

So if I had an extra landraider full of TH/SS terminators that I just added to my list, that's cool as long as I don't move, shoot or assault with them? The items in question were never used, so they can be effectively ignored.

No because they would represent a force organization chart slot, used to block los, killpoints etc..

It ideally shouldn't have happened, Dash explained from the beginning that he had no intention of using this list anyway, but objectively it had no barring on any of his games.

It's irrelevant.

Night's Blood wrote:No because they would represent a force organization chart slot, used to block los, killpoints etc..

Fair enough. Let's go with something a bit closer.

C:WH list and I take a psychic hood for my Canoness but end up playing against bike orks, IG with no PBS and DE. List is still illegal. I had the potential to use it in a game, but just because I never played a psychic army I get away with it?

It ideally shouldn't have happened, Dash explained from the beginning that he had no intention of using this list anyway, but objectively it had no barring on any of his games.

No one is saying that it had any effect on his games or it is why he won. People are saying that your list is supposed to be legal at a tournament and if it isn't there should be repercussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, what about if he was playing SW and had two lords, one with
WC/SS, Rune Armor, TWC
WC/SS, Rune Armor, TWC, MB

right before the tournament, he is 5 points short and just adds MB to the first lord. He never ends up using the MB for either lord in the tournament.

Should he be penalized?

pretre wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:No because they would represent a force organization chart slot, used to block los, killpoints etc..

Fair enough. Let's go with something a bit closer.

C:WH list and I take a psychic hood for my Canoness but end up playing against bike orks, IG with no PBS and DE. List is still illegal. I had the potential to use it in a game, but just because I never played a psychic army I get away with it?

It ideally shouldn't have happened, Dash explained from the beginning that he had no intention of using this list anyway, but objectively it had no barring on any of his games.

No one is saying that it had any effect on his games or it is why he won. People are saying that your list is supposed to be legal at a tournament and if it isn't there should be repercussions.

The faults in your argument are all the more obvious as you continuously have to use examples to prove yourself.

Objectively, in this specific case, it was irrelevant. The Animus Vitae gives you an extra pain token when a kill is inflicted in close combat. The haemonculus was never in close combat.
If Dash DID use it, i would be on your side of this issue, but he didn't, he probably even forgot he even had it equipped, as this isn't even the list he intended to use.
Again, it's irrelevant.

Night's Blood wrote:The faults in your argument are all the more obvious as you continuously have to use examples to prove yourself.

Really? What is the fault in "You took an illegal element in your list. Even though you didn't use it, having an illegal element makes your list illegal."

If Dash DID use it, i would be on your side of this issue, but he didn't, he probably even forgot he even had it equipped, as this isn't even the list he intended to use.
Again, it's irrelevant.

If you keep saying it over and over again, it doesn't make it any more a fact. In your opinion, it is irrelevant. In point of fact, it is relevant because people are interested in talking about it.

thehod wrote:So based on your experiences with BA, do you feel that Splinter cannon shooting is any effective vs FNP marines and how annoying are Stormravens?

You may have missed this on the last page:

I'm Dashofpepper's wife.

He asked me to say this:

Dashofpepper wrote:Can you post in my battle report thread on Dakka that if anyone has any tactical or game related queries, that they can find me on Skype under the user name "Dashofpepper" please? Tell them that I'm usually on after 1730 CST.

He's also now a contributing author at Hulksmash's blog: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/

pretre wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:The faults in your argument are all the more obvious as you continuously have to use examples to prove yourself.

Really? What is the fault in "You took an illegal element in your list. Even though you didn't use it, having an illegal element makes your list illegal."

If Dash DID use it, i would be on your side of this issue, but he didn't, he probably even forgot he even had it equipped, as this isn't even the list he intended to use.
Again, it's irrelevant.

If you keep saying it over and over again, it doesn't make it any more a fact. In your opinion, it is irrelevant. In point of fact, it is relevant because people are interested in talking about it.

Because i don't agree that it was an illegal list if he never used the item in question. You're idealistically claiming that because he paid points for something he never used, and that is technically illegal, that it has bearing on his placement.

Like i said in my first post, and like dash has said before, the appropriate response in this case is to remove the item in question, but because it was never used in any of his five games, it is indeed irrelevant.

Simply bringing up examples because your argument is inherently weak does not provide credence to the matter at hand.

pretre wrote:So if I had an extra landraider full of TH/SS terminators that I just added to my list, that's cool as long as I don't move, shoot or assault with them? The items in question were never used, so they can be effectively ignored.

If you somehow, ACCIDENTALLY, had a LR+TH/SS terminators written on your list, and SOMEHOW nobody caught it, and you never even got the models out of your case in any game, nor mentioned them, then yes. That's totally cool.

But really, good attempt at a horrible analogy. I bet you thought you were being really smart

Night's Blood wrote:Because i don't agree that it was an illegal list if he never used the item in question. You're idealistically claiming that because he paid points for something he never used, and that is technically illegal, that it has bearing on his placement.

I don't think it has any bearing on his placement, but it certainly is relevant.

Like i said in my first post, and like dash has said before, the appropriate response in this case is to remove the item in question,

I completely agree. If I was the TO, I would have had him remove the item in question and just be under points.

but because it was never used in any of his five games, it is indeed irrelevant.

Just because it wasn't caught and didn't affect his games does not make it irrelevant. List-making is a very important part of 40k and you are responsible for bringing a legal list to a tournament.

Simply bringing up examples because your argument is inherently weak does not provide credence to the matter at hand.

You're hung up on the examples. I didn't even use any when I replied to you. Seriously, unstick yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:But really, good attempt at a horrible analogy. I bet you thought you were being really smart

Yeah, I admitted as such if you read a little further. What's with the hate, geeze?

pretre wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:Because i don't agree that it was an illegal list if he never used the item in question. You're idealistically claiming that because he paid points for something he never used, and that is technically illegal, that it has bearing on his placement.

I don't think it has any bearing on his placement, but it certainly is relevant.

Like i said in my first post, and like dash has said before, the appropriate response in this case is to remove the item in question,

I completely agree. If I was the TO, I would have had him remove the item in question and just be under points.

but because it was never used in any of his five games, it is indeed irrelevant.

Just because it wasn't caught and didn't affect his games does not make it irrelevant. List-making is a very important part of 40k and you are responsible for bringing a legal list to a tournament.

Simply bringing up examples because your argument is inherently weak does not provide credence to the matter at hand.

You're hung up on the examples. I didn't even use any when I replied to you. Seriously, unstick yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:But really, good attempt at a horrible analogy. I bet you thought you were being really smart

Yeah, I admitted as such if you read a little further. What's with the hate, geeze?

You just proved my arguement right with your own words. Because, effectively, "remove the item in question and just be under points," was exactly what Dash did by removing it himself, or, never using it.

Night's Blood wrote:You just proved my arguement right with your own words. Because, effectively, "remove the item in question and just be under points," was exactly what Dash did by removing it himself, or, never using it.

Umm no. He did not remove the item in question. He didn't bring it up. He didn't even realize it. He just didn't use the item because he forgot it. That doesn't make it any more legal. If the TO had been on the ball, they would have noticed it and asked him to remove the item, but they werent. Just because your infraction wasn't noticed, doesn't mean it isn't an infraction.

Also, way to quote my whole post just to ignore it.

pretre wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:Because i don't agree that it was an illegal list if he never used the item in question. You're idealistically claiming that because he paid points for something he never used, and that is technically illegal, that it has bearing on his placement.

I don't think it has any bearing on his placement, but it certainly is relevant.

Like i said in my first post, and like dash has said before, the appropriate response in this case is to remove the item in question,

I completely agree. If I was the TO, I would have had him remove the item in question and just be under points.

but because it was never used in any of his five games, it is indeed irrelevant.

Just because it wasn't caught and didn't affect his games does not make it irrelevant. List-making is a very important part of 40k and you are responsible for bringing a legal list to a tournament.

pretre wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:You just proved my arguement right with your own words. Because, effectively, "remove the item in question and just be under points," was exactly what Dash did by removing it himself, or, never using it.

Umm no. He did not remove the item in question. He didn't bring it up. He didn't even realize it. He just didn't use the item because he forgot it. That doesn't make it any more legal. If the TO had been on the ball, they would have noticed it and asked him to remove the item, but they werent. Just because your infraction wasn't noticed, doesn't mean it isn't an infraction.

Also, way to quote my whole post just to ignore it.

pretre wrote:

Night's Blood wrote:Because i don't agree that it was an illegal list if he never used the item in question. You're idealistically claiming that because he paid points for something he never used, and that is technically illegal, that it has bearing on his placement.

I don't think it has any bearing on his placement, but it certainly is relevant.

Like i said in my first post, and like dash has said before, the appropriate response in this case is to remove the item in question,

I completely agree. If I was the TO, I would have had him remove the item in question and just be under points.

but because it was never used in any of his five games, it is indeed irrelevant.

Just because it wasn't caught and didn't affect his games does not make it irrelevant. List-making is a very important part of 40k and you are responsible for bringing a legal list to a tournament.

What other way can you remove an item from your list besides not using it?

I'm not addressing the other parts because im getting to the crux of the issue at hand, not going off topic.

Night's Blood wrote:What other way can you remove an item from your list besides not using it?

How about removing it from your list by striking it from the copies that are on file with the TO and that you give to your opponents?

Which is a perfectly reasonable answer. Except now you have to understand the actual environment of a tourney. Dash already explained that he was under time constraint. Also, we are now getting into a idealistic debate. From the realist perspective, as i've said before... "Like i said in my first post, and like dash has said before, the appropriate response in this case is to remove the item in question, but because it was never used in any of his five games, it is indeed irrelevant."

Nobody is trying to say that what he did was "right", although that stinks of subjectivity, we're saying that on the grand scheme of things it really, really, was irrelevant.

What does one do if they get to a tourney and relize you have one too many Heavy choices (not realistic I hope but follow me here for example) You decide that the answer is to remove a Pred, therfore do not deploy the unit, acting like it was never in the list, and playing with a point handcap. This is essentially what dash did, he removed the problem entity, but it is wargear and can not be not deployed. Would it have made you feel better if he had ripped a piece off of his hamonculous?

More than that, this is a futile argument as the tourny is done and over with.

Dashofpepper wrote:
....and meticulously respond to the barrage of PMs that I'm always getting asking for advice, army critiques, opinions, etc.

Very true. You've responded to a lot of my PMs even though I ask about armies you don't play. I really appreciate a player of your level taking the time to respond to players who don't even attend tournaments regularly and are just seeking advice. Keep up the awesome batreps and great job at the GT.

I was out of town that day otherwise I would have probably gone and had a chance to meet you! :O Hopefully the docking for sportsmanship and some of the less than friendly players didn't put you off from coming back down to tournaments here in SA.

Isn't the more significant point that the TO contacted him after the event and told him he'd miscalculated Dash's battle points, which meant he hadn't won after all?

Dash already had given away the prize support so the 2nd place player lost out both on that and possibly the Winner's plaque.

Isn't the real issue: Why is an official regional Grand Tournament run in such a slipshod manner from an organizational and regulatory/judges standpoint?

So I preface this by saying I have not yet read the battle report (that will happen after I post this) nor have I ever played EVE--however I am familiar with the game and your battle reports (I lurk frequently).

This is solely in response to your parody song. I have no idea it it sets the tone for your BR but it is ****ing hiliarious--it had me rolling the entire time and definitely brightened my day.

That said, I hope to see you on the other side of the table one day, as I expect we could have a lot of fun (definitely so if we have a bottle of Captain to share) and, I especially, could learn quite a bit. More to come after I finish reading BR #5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I haven't read through all of the comments yet, so someone else may have already offered this piece of advice, if so, I apologize for being redundant.

Something you may want to consider in the future, Dash: while you are curb-stomping your opponent, don't try to cheer them up. While I am no where near as experienced a player as yourself, for a while that was my tactic as well. If my opponent was not enjoying what was happening with their little men, I tried to make the game pleasurable for them anyway by joking and laughing--even playing into their delusions of "I would have had you if my dice didn't suck". But what I have found through observation and comments from friends that my opponents are actually offended. Though such high-spirits have the best intention, the recipient (the oft oded nerd-rager--and I mean this as a joke, so don't flame me) tends to take it as patronizing and belittling due to their low morale. In the past I have gone to extremes to try and cheer up my opponent (at a GT a few months back I talked my opponents out of rage-quitting twice despite being on the last table during round 5, him complaining about how I roll my dice, and being so sick I had no voice round 4--only to have him rage-quit a third time and tell me he hoped he never played me again) but I think a new strategy is needed.

In the future, in that kind of situation, I plan to be congenial and pleasant, but not overly friendly or try to cheer them up. I will treat them with respect and keep a dialog going, but I won't let them get away with blatant rules violations just because they are unhappy. And if my opponent appears sullen, I will take a break to use the bathroom or something--and if they are still sullen I will just play quick to end their misery as fast as possible.

So that's my plan, maybe it will help you, Dash, (and others)....lemme know what you think.

-jake

edit: Typo.

teh_jake wrote:
So that's my plan, maybe it will help you, Dash, (and others)....lemme know what you think.

-jake

edit: Typo.

Sounds good lol. Better than what I do. I just stay quite and have this look on my face like. o_o *gak im owning them so badly...i better not say anything*

hahaha good plan

Grimgob wrote:Wasn't the young guy who just won one of the golf opens DQ'd for having one too many golf clubs in his bag even though he didnt use it (he honestly thought he took it out but was DQ'd anyways).

http://www.pga.com/news/other-tour/teen-golfer-disqualifies-himself-gives-medal-in-wisconsin-junior-event




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night's Blood wrote:Arguing about the fact that his list was "illegal" is ridiculous. If you never once used the item in question then technically you are playing with a handicap, as you spent points you never could use. I could give my Archon a flickerfield upgrade, but due to the fact that i can't use a vehicle upgrade on an infantry unit, those 10 points are effectively wasted.

It shouldn't if happened, obviously, but the realist in me cannot accept a handicap as reason for expulsion.

Please tell me, is there a seperate catagory for lists that is not legal or illegal? A "its illegal but i didnt use it anyway" catagory?

Thanks carmachu (great article and stand up kid by the way). It really does seam relevant to the discussion after reading it.

As far as the list error, Mistakes are made. An advantage of list submission ahead of time is that the lists can be checked for errors.
The Alamo had advance list submissions. The judges didn't catch his error either.

They gave him the OK on the list, it didn't put him over points, it didnt give him any advantage, physical or psycological (whos afraid of a vitae on a heamy?) So i really don't see a problem with it.

Guys... DoP has been banned from this forum, he won't be able to answer to anyone here. No point in carrying on the conversation.

Those that support him, he can still be found online on a blog. The others, don't be haters, you just got schooled, hehe.

sourclams wrote:Isn't the more significant point that the TO contacted him after the event and told him he'd miscalculated Dash's battle points, which meant he hadn't won after all?

Dash already had given away the prize support so the 2nd place player lost out both on that and possibly the Winner's plaque.

Isn't the real issue: Why is an official regional Grand Tournament run in such a slipshod manner from an organizational and regulatory/judges standpoint?

Wait what? Where's this at? IF thats true, the 2nd place player deserves to get the same prize support, the organizers have an obligation to foot the bill since they gave away his prize to the wrong person. Mind you, thats only if this is true.

And an illegal list is an illegal list. No exceptions. Just because he didn't use the item or "who would be afraid of that!" is irrelevant. If I had an extra meltagun and never fired it, my opponent still judged that units in game "value" based on the list I handed him. Once you play at the "top level" in events, you're held to a higher standard. It sucks, but them's the breaks. You check your list 10 times, and you take your lumps like a gentlemen (like that golfer) when you make an error.

Thats my take anyway, for what it's worth.

And to Dash:

My Dad and I, when I was younger, had a long conversation about relationships. I was upset, they'd all get to a point, and crash and burn. What the hell was wrong with the opposite sex I asked? Was I just unlucky? And his advice, whether I wanted to hear it or not, was that at some point, you've got to step back, and take a look at the big picture, and identify what the common factor is in all of the failed relationships: me (or you in this case). You may want to consider taking a step back to evaluate how you approach social situations and other people in games. I'm fully aware this probably falls on deaf ears, but if it were me and drama followed me at most events I was at, most threads I was in, etc., I'd probably take a harder look at how I'm acting, than at how the other people in the situations are. After all, we have zero control over how anyone, other than ourselves, acts.

None of that is intended offensively, just my opinion and friendly advice for what it's worth. Feel free to ignore it if you don't agree. I've never had much of an interaction with Dash at events, and we haven't been paired up yet. Maybe at the invitational/NOVA main this year we'll get to duke it out.

gorium wrote:Guys... DoP has been banned from this forum, he won't be able to answer to anyone here. No point in carrying on the conversation.

Those that support him, he can still be found online on a blog. The others, don't be haters, you just got schooled, hehe.

Banned for what exactly?