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Incidentally, WHFB has a female Chaos character who not only does not wear skimpy armour and revealing chainmail bikinis, but actually beheads anyone who suggests she should.
Now, why is that such a hard concept to transfer to the Sisters, who are trained for battle (not against sexual activity, mark you, they are perfectly allowed to engage in that) and thus would probably most likely be addicted to the worship of Khorne?


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dreadanant wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

There is something realy wrong with you.

Naturally anyone who dares actually criticise the Iron Corset and Kinky Space Nuns is clearly lacking in mental faculties, hurr.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:not against sexual activity, mark you, they are perfectly allowed to engage in that

sexual activity = pleasure = no-go for Sisters as per GW canon.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Now, why is that such a hard concept to transfer to the Sisters, who are trained for battle and thus would probably most likely be addicted to the worship of Khorne?

I maintain that Khorne doesn't fit because they've been doing this stuff about 5.000 years and not a single one has fallen. It simply doesn't happen just like that, so on the basis of Miriael Sabathiel it must be something different than what they are normally exposed to.

That said, I love Miriael's character design. Goes to show how even a Slaaneshi follower can appear sensual without showing any skin (aside from the head, obviously).

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Naturally anyone who dares actually criticise the Iron Corset and Kinky Space Nuns is clearly lacking in mental faculties, hurr.

I really don't want to get involved with that mud-fight, but personally, I think there's a bit of one-sided "oversensitivity" going on here. Slaanesh and his/her cultists do follow a certain style, and suggesting that females should be exempt from it on account of their gender is just as sexist as drooling about it, so trying to proclaim morale high ground probably won't work very good in this discussion. Discarding the most obvioius explanations just because it's perceived as cliché and one doesn't like it is not very constructive either.

Of course, one could still dislike the concept of Slaanesh in general.

Just reminds me of the "female Predator" discussion in the News section, actually ...

If your rant was directed against the design of the normal SoB, though, I'll take that back. Not that the obvious overmasculinization of Marines is any different from SoB armour design, mind you. Personally, I'm just lucky that they look quite professional and badass.

I only hope that any new miniatures - should they ever get them - will not introduce those dreaded heels one gets to see in some fan-artworks or even on Blanche's drawings.

Lynata wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Naturally anyone who dares actually criticise the Iron Corset and Kinky Space Nuns is clearly lacking in mental faculties, hurr.

I really don't want to get involved with that mud-fight, but personally, I think there's a bit of one-sided "oversensitivity" going on here. Slaanesh and his/her cultists do follow a certain style, and suggesting that females should be exempt from it on account of their gender is just as sexist as drooling about it, so trying to proclaim morale high ground probably won't work very good in this discussion. Discarding the most obvioius explanations just because it's perceived as cliché and one doesn't like it is not very constructive either.

I'll clear this up. Basically, the guy I quoted seemed to think that if you suggested that oversexualisation was wrong, you were in some way faulty. I actually like the themes of Slaanesh quite a great deal, and with good reason - perversity, arrogance and cruelty make for great traits in any villain, and ol' Slaanesh has that in spades.

I don't object to slaanesh' oversexualization. That's the point, practically. Hell I even considered getting a Slaanesh based daemon army until I saw the hideous new models.

But it DOES NOT fit Sisters of Battle at all.

Brother Coa wrote:The Sisters fluff changed 3 times regarding this outcome...

Sisters of Battle 2'nd edition (1997): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Daemonfuge comic (1999) : "Several Sisters fall to Chaos corruption."
Witchhunters 3'rd edition codex (2003): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Cain's Last Stand: " entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."

We have yet to see what will new Sisters codex tell us about this. But I am sticking to the codex entries, it is more reliable source of fluff.

Cain's Last Stand is an exception considering the circumstances. Once the sisters get their minds back the happily off themselves.

purplefood wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:The Sisters fluff changed 3 times regarding this outcome...

Sisters of Battle 2'nd edition (1997): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Daemonfuge comic (1999) : "Several Sisters fall to Chaos corruption."
Witchhunters 3'rd edition codex (2003): "Only 1 Sister has ever fall to Chaos"
Cain's Last Stand: " entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."

We have yet to see what will new Sisters codex tell us about this. But I am sticking to the codex entries, it is more reliable source of fluff.

Cain's Last Stand is an exception considering the circumstances. Once the sisters get their minds back the happily off themselves.

Not to mention the comic is really the odd one out there. Not that I don't like Daemonifuge, but it was kind of out there when it came to existing fluff.

Brother Coa wrote:We shall see what new codex have to say about that...

Probably ignored. Has anything that Cain's been involved in received recognition in a codex? And technically what happens isn't so much a "fallen to Chaos" thing as a "forcibly rewrote the victims' concept of reality" sort of thing. It's more mind control than anything else - albeit mind control that appears to the ignorant observer to be ridiculously good persuasive skills and that lasts The moment that the effect is removed from two of the Sisters, It's not so much a "fall" (which implies at least a certain amount of voluntary actions on the victim's part) as it is having someone else's point of view forcibly imposed over your own.

It's just not a good example. Psykers can mind-control victims. Stupidly powerful ones designed with tons of stupidly written plot armor (such as the ersatz Hitler Clone in Cain's Last Stand) that exists only to be stripped away at the most suitable moment can mind-control whatever the hell the writer wants.

Melissia wrote:It's just not a good example. Psykers can mind-control victims. Stupidly powerful ones designed with tons of stupidly written plot armor (such as the ersatz Hitler Clone in Cain's Last Stand) that exists only to be stripped away at the most suitable moment can mind-control whatever the hell the writer wants.

It's Cain.

*shrug*


On a more serious note, taking the use of his power to its logical conclusion, the guy should have had an army big enough to completely sweep away the planet's defenses in an instant by that point in time. He also should have been fairly aggressive in attempting to "open negotiations" with the other side in order to suborn leadership the moment that he set foot on a planet.

IRT that pic posted a few pages back...

... maybe I'm missing something, but nothing about them says "Fallen Sister of Battle". They're female Khornate Champions, at a guess. Maybe they learned some stuff from some WytchElves or something, hence the lack of armor (then again, Kharn is often depicted fighting in a loincloth as well) or that their devotion to Khorne is such that they live only to slay in his name, and give no thought to their own protection or defense.

Eumerin wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's just not a good example. Psykers can mind-control victims. Stupidly powerful ones designed with tons of stupidly written plot armor (such as the ersatz Hitler Clone in Cain's Last Stand) that exists only to be stripped away at the most suitable moment can mind-control whatever the hell the writer wants.

It's Cain.

*shrug*


On a more serious note, taking the use of his power to its logical conclusion, the guy should have had an army big enough to completely sweep away the planet's defenses in an instant by that point in time. He also should have been fairly aggressive in attempting to "open negotiations" with the other side in order to suborn leadership the moment that he set foot on a planet.

He pretty much had the former IIRC.

Psienesis wrote:IRT that pic posted a few pages back...

... maybe I'm missing something, but nothing about them says "Fallen Sister of Battle". They're female Khornate Champions, at a guess. Maybe they learned some stuff from some WytchElves or something, hence the lack of armor (then again, Kharn is often depicted fighting in a loincloth as well) or that their devotion to Khorne is such that they live only to slay in his name, and give no thought to their own protection or defense.

In the thread the artist posted it in, it was described as their conception of Khornate SoB.

Maybe so... but without that explanation, it's not portrayed in the image, at least in my opinion. They look like how I would expect female Khornate Champions would look if they were of the mindset that armor is for those who are weak and fear death... or who had, perhaps, been DE slaves before their conversion or w/e.

Just sayin', the only link that the image, alone, gives me to the Sororitas is that the Soroitas are women, and here are some women, so... they must be fallen Sororitas or something? I dunno.... yeah, artist's interpretation, etc and all that... I just don't see it.

Psienesis wrote:Maybe so... but without that explanation, it's not portrayed in the image, at least in my opinion. They look like how I would expect female Khornate Champions would look if they were of the mindset that armor is for those who are weak and fear death... or who had, perhaps, been DE slaves before their conversion or w/e.

Just sayin', the only link that the image, alone, gives me to the Sororitas is that the Soroitas are women, and here are some women, so... they must be fallen Sororitas or something? I dunno.... yeah, artist's interpretation, etc and all that... I just don't see it.

There are also a couple of weapons that are frequently linked to the Sororitas, such as the flamer featured quite prominently up in the front rank.

But generally, yes I'd have to agree with you. You probably wouldn't realize that they were supposed to be Sororitas if you weren't specifically told that they were.

Melissia wrote:Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

They are strongly influenced by John Blanche's art, and are one of the few armies in 40K that still truly reflect that old Gothic feel.

edit: was mislead by another response by what was being discussed... my comment is about the Sororitas' current design of corsets and such

Omegus wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes, it stinks of sexism and/or sexual fantasy to me.

They are strongly influenced by John Blanche's art

Sexism/sexual fantasy and John Blanches' gakky art = one and the same.

squidhills wrote:however, she was taken aback by their codex name... "Witch Hunters". Y'see, she actually is a practising witch (in the contemporary sense, not the classical sense... or the 40K sense) so that balloon didn't go over well with her. She very well might want to, erm... Chaos-ify her army as a protest or something.

*eyes roll so hard they fall out of the eye sockets and splatter on the floor*

Ah, that's a relief.

Actually, I think the armor design has a perfectly valid in-universe reason for existing: The person wearing it is "obviously" female.

I put "obviously" in quotes because, yes, it could be a man in that power armor with the pointy breasticles on the front... but the point, I think, is to indicate that the person wearing this power armor is female, and it indicates that to anyone standing close, and standing several hundred meters away with unassisted eyesight. It's the Ecclesiarchy being overzealous in enforcing the "no man under arms" decree placed upon them.

Also, the corset-like appearance could be, instead, a bustier, which is an article of outer-wear, rather than underwear. Or it could just be a reference to Gothic clothing styles (not the old Gothic, the newer Gothic), which is often corsetry and bustiers, and which blends well into this grimdark setting (being, itself, rather grimdark).

ETA: Inferno Pistols and flamers in general are not reserved to the Sororitas alone. Lots of units make use of them... the general-purpose flamer, especially, is popular with Guardsman fighting Orks, as it not only covers a wide area when the charge comes, but keeps them from spreading spores. Inferno Pistols are, iirc, pretty old guns... makes sense that they would appear in the caches of the Traitor Legions.

Brother Coa wrote:We shall see what new codex have to say about that...
And we all know, the newer fluff overrides the old one...
( like Damnos incident ).

Codex/rulebook material trumps Black Library stuff.

Although the fifth edition rulebook has wrong information about Sisters in it.

Wrong? Or Ret-conned?

Pretty sure the rulebook for the table-top game can't be "wrong", as far as fluff is concerned (though something could certainly be misprinted which causes a change in meaning or intent), as New Rulebook Fluff overrides and supersedes Previous Rulebook Fluff.

Psienesis wrote:Also, the corset-like appearance could be, instead, a bustier, which is an article of outer-wear, rather than underwear.

Actually, you are spot on. There are images where you see the Angel-pattern armour without the leather corset, revealing a belly of layered armour plates (sort of like the banded mail from Roman Legionaries). Other times you see the leather corset replaced by a full metal and richly ornamented plackart, apparently granting both additional protection as well as signifying a higher rank - for you only ever see this worn by what appears to be Canonesses and Elite Celestians:



I take the leather corset as a simple protective measure to guard the banded plates against dirt, similar to how they sometimes seem to wear leather gloves above their gauntlets. I've never perceived it as "lingerie".

As for their weapons, the most popular one is still the bolter, though together with melta and flamer they have been called the Sisterhood's "Holy Trinity".

Psienesis wrote:Wrong? Or Ret-conned?

Or perhaps even neither.

It is said that the Order of Our Martyred Lady is down to three companies of Sisters due to their terrible losses in the Third War of Armageddon. If other Orders Maioris have suffered similar casualties, it is not unthinkable that some of them would be merged - or downgraded to Orders Minoris.
I'm just glad to see that they've maintained the relative scarcity of SoB that was first mentioned in the 2E 'dex.

If they really do a retcon, though, I'd hope they would bring the Orders' colours into a more organized line. Think about it: The SoB traditionally only use the colours white, black and red for their armour and clothing. The 5E book says they have three Orders Maioris. A smart idea would be to have each Major Order stand for a specific colour, with all Minor Orders using variations of that scheme. For example, the Order Maioris of the Bloody Rose is all red. Its spin-off Order Minoris of the Martyred Lady retains the red for the robes, but takes a black armour. And so on.
Just an idea/theory, of course. It would sadly require some re-writing on part of what Orders existed first and which Convent they are assigned to, so this should really only be touched when they've decided to rewrite their history anyways ... all in all, I'd still prefer that some Orders were simply merged or scaled back to Minoris size as part of some internal restructurization program that expands on the Sororitas' present situation, instead of retroactively changing their past.

Psienesis wrote:Wrong? Or Ret-conned?

Pretty sure the rulebook for the table-top game can't be "wrong", as far as fluff is concerned (though something could certainly be misprinted which causes a change in meaning or intent), as New Rulebook Fluff overrides and supersedes Previous Rulebook Fluff.

Yes, wrong. Imagine if the rulebook said there were only ten legions, two disappeared for unknown reasons, four turned to chaos, four turned loyal. Contradicting the codex and ALL other fluff about the army.

That would be wrong, yes?

The rulebook claims that there are only three major orders, when there are six. These are the Sisters' equivalents to the original legions. It is just plain stupid, and such a retcon absolutely ruins the faction as... well, a viable faction, removing the vast majority of the Sisters from continuity. It's just stupid, and also stupid.

LIke most 40k fluff it shall we say keeps evolving - I have got to the point of deciding which bits I like for my own 40k universe (for rpging and gaming)

the original incarnation of the Adepta Sororitas does not mention size of the organisation but implies its huge and at that point has its own fleet to police the imperium - "administering genetic and psychological tests". and of course the first image we see is "Sister Sin" executing an apparently smaller Asartes

The first proper Codex has "present day numbers" as a mere 18,000 sisters of battle with uncountered numbers in the other Orders.

Witchunters does not seem to give any figures but is in line with the previous - althoug more mention is made of Lesser orders as well as the 6 Greater Orders

Hopefully the forthcoming White Dwarf Codex will be good - as well asgiving new models but more importantly keep the primary fluff alive and mcuh as before - less of a re-write than the Grey Knights

Although it would be amusing to have some Sisters burning some Grey Knights for the percieved crimes of lack of Faith or impersonating a officer of the Inquisiton or similar

Evolving, devolving, what's the difference, right?

Psienesis wrote:Maybe so... but without that explanation, it's not portrayed in the image, at least in my opinion. They look like how I would expect female Khornate Champions would look if they were of the mindset that armor is for those who are weak and fear death... or who had, perhaps, been DE slaves before their conversion or w/e..

I respectfully disagree. Nothing about their outfit says they scorn armour in any way; what it does say is that they sure like battle lingerie. If the former was the case, I'd expect a great deal more of this:

Now, you see how the female in question is nude without it being sexualised? How she looks, well, dangerously insane as opposed to alluring? That's how I'd expect to see female khornate warriors who genuinely scorn armour as a sign of cowardice. The art posted earlier, on the other hand, did not look anything like this; indeed, if anything, it was more of the generic fantasy female archetype.

This thread has been pruned. Family-friendly, folks.

The rulebook claims that there are only three major orders, when there are six. These are the Sisters' equivalents to the original legions. It is just plain stupid, and such a retcon absolutely ruins the faction as... well, a viable faction, removing the vast majority of the Sisters from continuity. It's just stupid, and also stupid.

Ordos Militant, Ordos Dialogus, Ordos Famulous, Ordos Hospitaler. That's 4, actually... neither 3 nor 6, so you're both wrong. I have seen... somewhere, I don't recall where... a mention that Famulous and Dialogus might be/have been rolled into 1 Order, which would make 3 major orders, but I've not seen it supported elsewhere yet, so I'm discarding it for the moment.

Now, if you meant Convents... well, that's a different thing entirely.

As far as the Legion thing... well, if it's published in a rulebook, that's the way it goes, isn't it? Whether I like it or not, whether I agree with it or not, makes no difference at all. The canon is now whatever the latest rulebook/codex says. If I don't like it I can, of course, ignore it in favor of old fluff for my games... but that simply makes my games non-canon-compliant, it doesn't make GW's canon publication wrong.

Psienesis wrote:

The rulebook claims that there are only three major orders, when there are six. These are the Sisters' equivalents to the original legions. It is just plain stupid, and such a retcon absolutely ruins the faction as... well, a viable faction, removing the vast majority of the Sisters from continuity. It's just stupid, and also stupid.

Ordos Militant, Ordos Dialogus, Ordos Famulous, Ordos Hospitaler. That's 4, actually... neither 3 nor 6, so you're both wrong.

The Dialogous, Famulous, and Hospitaller are not Sisters of Battle.

The six Orders Majoris are thus:

Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of Our Martyred Lady
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Valorous Heart
Order of the Argent Shroud

I believe you will find that "Sisters of Battle" and "Adeptus Sororitas" are used interchangeably by a very high number of players as well as GW/BL writers. While the "Sisters of Battle" moniker specifically refers to the Ordos Militant, in proper usage, it's a much easier thing to remember (and spell) than "Adeptus Sororitas". This may be the source of this issue, a simple misunderstanding, or alternate usage of, the term.

Of course, it may be that 3 of those Militant Orders have been destroyed or rolled into one of the others after significant losses, or whatever. Maybe they're hinting at a future publication where such events will be revealed? Who knows.

Not sure what the "canon" fate of the Order of the Sacred Rose is, as that's the Order featured in the video game Dawn of War: Soulstorm. I do know that the canonical ending of that storyline is an IG victory, but the Sisters were not summarily executed or anything. It may be that the losses suffered during the campaign caused the Order to be disbanded and rolled into others, or perhaps all of the survivors were made Sisters Repentia in penance? Again, who knows.

The Order of Our Martyred Lady was absolutely mauled during the 3rd Armageddon War. It's said they recovered, but that was on Lexicanum, so I'm not certain to the veracity of the claim. This may be another case of Lexicanum not knowing as much as GW, who might reveal more in further, future publications, and this Order may have been too few in number after the war to continue, and may have been rolled into another. Who knows? (...this is becoming a near-meme.)

Though, completely tangental, I'm surprised at the number of "canon" Orders Militant taking an interest in FFG's Calixis Sector. The Ebon Chalice has people on Iocanthos, the Bloody Rose has a Convent on Malfi (what a gakky world *that* is!), and the Order of the Valorous Heart was involved in suppressing a mutant uprising on Sepheris Secundis (another gakky world in the Calixis sector).

Seems the Calixis Sector is particularly favored in seeing some Sister action...