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On an aside, it's also pretty terrifying how deep some of their staffers are into the kool-aid. The first step of correcting their decline in sales is admitting there is a problem. With this culture of denial - unless there is a drastic shift in leadership - I can't seen GW's modus operandii changing substatially.

*sigh* I have not a jot of business experience but I think I might not do much worse than the current board at running this circus.

What's frustrating is I agree with Kroothawk. GW has, in general, good products (I love their minis, I adore their background, and even when their rules aren't the greatest I still greatly enjoy their games), but GW seems hellbent on ruining themselves.

But anything so that Wells and Kirby can keep paying themselves their dividend, eh? I guess Wells is hinting at retiring soon, so I expect in a couple years to see a fatal loss in profit but a tremendous dividend payout with Wells basically going "Nyah nyah na boo boo, stick yer head in doo doo."

RatBot wrote:What's frustrating is I agree with Kroothawk.

Err, I don't mean agreeing with you is frustrating, I mean I agree with you, and the situation that you and I agree upon is frustrating.

Poor wording on my part, lol.

It's interesting to note that GW's board is made up of 5 people. The chairman Kirby, CEO Wells, CFO Roundtree and 2 "independent" directors. It always baffled me about the talk related to the years of service of the directors, in previous financial statements, and how they felt they could still be independent... I just made the connection today. Apparently, the guidance for publically traded companies is that an independent board member should have no more than 9 years on the board. The thought is that after such a long time of service they are no longer independent but rather have become almost an "insider" and thus not objective. Kirby and Wells have argued that they are still independent and should stay. It is clear to me that these 2 directors are "yes men" on the dole to the tune of £50,000 as of this year - an increase of almost 32%.

That brings total compensation for the board to over £1 mil - a near 17% increase. I am all for execs being adequately compensated for their labors but when your company has declining revenue and declining profits shouldn't you forgo a pay increase?

That would be a matter for the shareholders to discuss at the AGM.

Of course, Kirby and Wells have a lot of shares themselves.

... but when your company has declining revenue and declining profits shouldn't you forgo a pay increase?

Heh. A heh heh. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha! HA HA HA HA HA! Ha ha, hooo... Yeah.

I mean, they should, but that'll never happen. I keep hearing all the time about companies with dwindling profits and generally shrinking, but the top executives damn sure get their raises and bonuses!

ceorron wrote:

Bloodwin wrote:

The fans of GW are a niche group who are willing to pay for their product so don't try to appeal outside this niche as it's wasted effort

This is so closed minded. This is really what is killing GW. Unnable to see the potential of new markets and expand it's boarders, new customers seem to me what is required to get rid of the hobby shirk that others have identified. Who is to say that new markets won't be receptive to the GW product, they make a large number of fine miniatures. To me video games like WoW get mass market appeal, I don't see why GWs (or indeed any miniature companies) products should be pigeon holed so.

As others have said, many of the upcoming generation find GW via computer games and don't want to learn how to paint figures or cant afford to get someone to paint them. I have 2 brothers and 2 nephews who'd enjoy any of GWs games but none of them want to paint the models.

ceorron wrote:

Bloodwin wrote:

People who 'fit' in GW. That's standard management talk, it means don't hire people who will try to change the company and possibly screw up our IP money machine

This seems like the most stupid and maronic ideas i've heard in sometime, surely you hire people for the differences, skills and so flexibilities they bring to the company. What your endorsing by saying this is paramount to indoctrination or the suggestion that only one "model" works. This is stupid as GW compitition demonstrates with thier penetration into GW market well underway what people are after is not the monotone model GW seems to be selling it would be good in that respect to have some fresh blood at GW.

I have had two open minded colleagues who tried to innovate and improve my simple spreadsheets at work and once every week I have to fix something they have made a mess of because they overcomplicated it and were just plain incompetent. They key to good creative management is knowing what to improve and by how much. You need to be able to function, preferably in the simplest way possible. Inovation should free up time spend doing repetitive boring stuff and allow you to concentrate on improving productivity by making sales in other areas like print on demand t-shirts (print on demand means no dead stock of Dark Eldar shirts from 2 years ago).

For what it's worth the two ways GW need to improve were addressed, they need to be better and faster at getting their message and product out there. The White Dwarf secret embargo is a stupid idea. They need to stop thinking that White Dwarf is the greatest advertising asset they have. They need to get their products on the internet ASAP so that the information hungry fans can get excited. They need to do this so they they get their message out and control the message rather than let independent forums try to guess what they are doing. They then need to focus on making the most money out of the Horus Heresy while it is popular because it's ludicrous that such a massively popular range of books doesn't have cool toy soldiers for fans to buy.

RatBot wrote:-Wells makes some head-scratching statements, including saying that GW has the basis for growth and all they need to do is figure out how to spur it on, despite saying the exact same thing five years in a row.

This part made me laugh. And this is because it has taken them 5 years to not do much on the matter , this is GW.

WarOne wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:The reaction of customers and staff to Citadel Finecast has been overwhelmingly positive.

So what, did they interview every single employee who is most certainly not going to say it sucks and get fired?
And then they probably grabbed some ten year olds who have only begun to delve into the hobby, and aksed them to comment about the new Finecrap.

They don't need to ask anyone. They just say it. There's no burden of proof on them, and they just add in whatever anecdotal evidence that fits the picture that they are painting.

Games Workshop wrote:The number of new customer registrations on the Games Workshop webstore grew by over 150,000 across all territories. We achieved this not by offering discounts but by providing access to the full range, with good product information and a fast and reliable delivery service.

I wonder how many more customers could be had if they actually gave some sort of discount or loyalty program to entice people to buy more from the intrawebs???

Not to mention that with 200-300 Facebook pages they'll be spending so much time removing SPAM and 'complaints' that they'll eventually end up either abandoning it completely or just shutting them down. I can't see GW's latest hamfisted attempt at social media lasting more than 6 months before someone pulls the plug.

RatBot wrote:Now, I'm not an economist

It's ok. No one at GW is either.

RatBot wrote:-They paid out a dividend despite decreased income, rather than spending that money on figuring out how to foster growth.

This actually makes perfect sense when you think about it.

What does GW love most? Short-term profits and instant gratification.

What have they got? Some free cash flow.

So what does GW do with it? Spend it immediately (on themselves) rather than investing it for a long-term growth.

The more I see this the more it just seems like Wells and Kirby lining their pockets. Who honestly thinks that in an economy like the UK's and in a company where volume and profits are flagging that paying out dividends in place of investing in the company's future is the wise choice?

RatBot wrote:Like I said, not an economist or business man, but isn't this unsustainable? Their solution in the face of flagging sales seems to be "trim the fat and increase prices", but eventually there won't be any fat to trim and prices will have exceeded the threshold that people are willing to pay.

I'd hazard a guess and say that outside of a few dozen more store closures, there ain't any fat left to trim. They're already to the bone... and paying dividends!

Going back to the placing of FFG products in store, as I understand it you're not even allowed to play them in store, since they're not actually GW products? Or maybe that's a quirk in my local stores.

I cannot understand at all why they raised the price on the starter boxes. £50 for Assault on Black Reach, while still steep, was a nice round price for a one of buy for a young child/teenager and would make a good present. I agree though the box needs a bit more scenery (like the old cardboard stuff!) and some more fluff (preferably not by Him...).

One of the most important things I think, that hasn't really been mentioned, is the rise of other companies, particularly Mantic (since they do a similar product but cheaper). Ronnie of Mantic has said a few times (or at least implied) that GW's doing him a huge favour by getting people hooked but then they want large and cheap armies and discover Mantic.

Lux_Lucis wrote:Going back to the placing of FFG products in store, as I understand it you're not even allowed to play them in store, since they're not actually GW products? Or maybe that's a quirk in my local stores.

Well their board games use specific miniatures and their RPG's dont need any. No reason for GW to let you play if you dont buy anything.

Lux_Lucis wrote:
I cannot understand at all why they raised the price on the starter boxes. £50 for Assault on Black Reach, while still steep, was a nice round price for a one of buy for a young child/teenager and would make a good present. I agree though the box needs a bit more scenery (like the old cardboard stuff!) and some more fluff (preferably not by Him...).

One of the most important things I think, that hasn't really been mentioned, is the rise of other companies, particularly Mantic (since they do a similar product but cheaper). Ronnie of Mantic has said a few times (or at least implied) that GW's doing him a huge favour by getting people hooked but then they want large and cheap armies and discover Mantic.

Yeah they had a great thing going with those starters. I bought three AOBR and one Skull Pass.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The more I see this the more it just seems like Wells and Kirby lining their pockets. Who honestly thinks that in an economy like the UK's and in a company where volume and profits are flagging that paying out dividends in place of investing in the company's future is the wise choice

GW has £ 15.3m operating profit, which leaves them obviously a £ 19.67m truly surplus with absolutely no use to spend within the company, because it is growing so fast.
Wells decides a 15% pay rise for Kirby and over a million £ dividends for Kirby, and Kirby approves this. Better drain the company by £ 4.37m, before the money gets bad. In his own words:

Kirby wrote:Dividends have returned. I am as pleased as you are. Does this herald in a new era of progressive dividends on an assured yield? Hardly. We return truly surplus cash to shareholders. 'Truly surplus' means the cash we can not use because we have already spent all we need for the growth of the business. It would sit in a bank account if we didn't return it. Working this way means the payment of dividends will be fairly happenstance; I can see us having surplus cash in the future and when we have (assuming it is a sensible sum) it will be returned, not according to a schedule, but right then and there.

I can't see a growth of the business, but then again, Kirby assures us, he is perfect, so what do we know!

Spent all we need for the growth of the business. I wonder what this actually means, because I don't see any 'growth'. I see a new production material that apparently costs more for them to do than the old one (which begs the question - why'd they change if that's the case?), and money going to the two biggest shareholders, which just happen to be the guy's running the company.

When I said GW was a corrupt and contemptable company, it seems I wasn't far from the truth.


Now where all the White Knights at?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Spent all we need for the growth of the business. I wonder what this actually means, because I don't see any 'growth'. I see a new production material that apparently costs more for them to do than the old one (which begs the question - why'd they change if that's the case?), and money going to the two biggest shareholders, which just happen to be the guy's running the company.

Perhaps the materials cost the same or more, but the tooling process is cheaper, allowing them to put more finecrap releases out than they would normally in metal.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
When I said GW was a corrupt and contemptable company, it seems I wasn't far from the truth.

I dont think there is any evidence to the contrary.

Kroothawk wrote:

Kirby wrote:Dividends have returned. I am as pleased as you are.

...yeah...

Kirby wrote:Actually, I'm more pleased than you are considering the amount of shares I own and the fact I'm retiring soon *guffaw*

H.B.M.C. wrote:Spent all we need for the growth of the business. I wonder what this actually means, because I don't see any 'growth'. I see a new production material that apparently costs more for them to do than the old one (which begs the question - why'd they change if that's the case?), and money going to the two biggest shareholders, which just happen to be the guy's running the company.

When I said GW was a corrupt and contemptable company, it seems I wasn't far from the truth.


Now where all the White Knights at?

Sipping on their cool aid.

Reading the WD.

And waiting on their spiritual liege to give the order smite down the heretic known as H.M.B.C.

But don't worry I got your back and we'll make a few of them scream like girlie men that they are

SilverMK2 wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Unfortunately, when people are satisfied, it's a lot harder to find the energy to make a forum post detailing their experience than it is when you're motivated by rage.

And as I've said, now for about the third or fourth time, when the product they put up ON THEIR OWN SITE to SHOW OFF the LAUNCH OF THEIR NEW FLAGSHIP SUPER PRODUCT LINE is full of BUBBLES AND OTHER MISCASTS, you have to wonder W(here)TF they got 97% excellent quality from.

I know! This level of quality means that, on average, 97% of each model was correctly cast!

Adam LongWalker wrote:And waiting on their spiritual liege to give the order smite down the heretic known as H.M.B.C.

Then sign me up! I've always wanted to put an end to my evil doppleganger - H.M.B.C. - so that he'd stop taking credit for everything I do.

"chuckles" yea I'll do that

The one good thing I read in that steaming pile was the bit about the old guard getting older and getting ready to retire and move aside.

Good riddance to bad rubish. Let's get some young blood in there and do away with the draconian, bs policies Gw has enforced. They seem to hate thileir customers. They are slow to adopt new business strategies and technology. They have left the door WIDE open for competition to come in and gobble up market share by simply being responsive to their customers.

Gw games are awesome. The company is often utter dog gak.

Reecius wrote:The one good thing I read in that steaming pile was the bit about the old guard getting older and getting ready to retire and move aside.

Good riddance to bad rubish. Let's get some young blood in there and do away with the draconian, bs policies Gw has enforced. They seem to hate thileir customers. They are slow to adopt new business strategies and technology. They have left the door WIDE open for competition to come in and gobble up market share by simply being responsive to their customers.

Gw games are awesome. The company is often utter dog gak.

I would hope for this, but I simply imagine that they'll just torpedo the company by issuing an enormous dividend, giving their share holders a huge wad of cash, but more importantly, giving themselves several million dollars. They'll retire fat and happy and the company will fold.


I don't know if that's legal, but I'm sure that if it can be done, they'll do it.

1.2 mil total compensation for a CEO of a 120mil revenue business is flying rodent gak insane FWIW, very much out of whack with market remuneration practices.

RatBot wrote:

Reecius wrote:The one good thing I read in that steaming pile was the bit about the old guard getting older and getting ready to retire and move aside.

Good riddance to bad rubish. Let's get some young blood in there and do away with the draconian, bs policies Gw has enforced. They seem to hate thileir customers. They are slow to adopt new business strategies and technology. They have left the door WIDE open for competition to come in and gobble up market share by simply being responsive to their customers.

Gw games are awesome. The company is often utter dog gak.

I would hope for this, but I simply imagine that they'll just torpedo the company by issuing an enormous dividend, giving their share holders a huge wad of cash, but more importantly, giving themselves several million dollars. They'll retire fat and happy and the company will fold.


I don't know if that's legal, but I'm sure that if it can be done, they'll do it.

I have stated in the past. Wait for Kirby to retire and see how HUGE his stock options are. "He's got one hell of a golden parachute".

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:And waiting on their spiritual liege to give the order smite down the heretic known as H.M.B.C.

Then sign me up! I've always wanted to put an end to my evil doppleganger - H.M.B.C. - so that he'd stop taking credit for everything I do.

Aren't you a Hong Kong-based bank?

Oh, I missed this bit:

We have started to improve our standards of customer service in our Hobby centres and are confident we have the right model for opening more across North America.

I... but... indep-....but... Pointl- I....

Since Christmas more Hobby centres have delivered like for like growth, particularly in North America where last year’s changes to store
staffing and regional management are settling down. We are now confident Games Workshop has a profitable retail model for North
America and we have started the gradual geographical expansion into new cities, with new Games Workshop Hobby centres opening in San
Antonio, Texas and Bowie, Maryland, with more cities to follow.

I firmly believe this is false. Or rather, "Now that our GW shops are 1-man operations with crappy locations, no space, and sporadic hours, they're profitable!" Seriously, who in the US primarily shops at GW Hobby Centres? I sincerely doubt that they will continue to be profitable.

Apparently 1-man holes in the wall that sell product at retail price and provide no room to play... are profitable? Bull.

"Confident we have the right model for opening more in North America." Yeah, just like you've had the model for growth for the past five years, right Messrs. Kirby and Wells?

Buzzsaw wrote:An interesting point, building on observations published by others in places like this;

The decision to offer a dividend, is it really in the best interest of the company when price rises and cost-cutting measures are being instituted? Consider that (according to this), Marks Wells (CEO) and Tom Kirby (Chairman) own...

Mark Wells: 125586 shares,

Tom Kirby: 1913009 shares.

According to the report, there was a dividend of 25 pence/share in October 2010, 20 pence/share in May 2011, and a further 18 pence/share is expected in October 2011. On just the paid dividends (45 p/s since Oct.2010), these two have received (the as yet proposed 18 p/s dividend is in parenthesis),

Mark Wells: 56,513 GBP (25,117 GBP),

Tom Kirby: 860,854 GBP (382,601 GBP).

Now, this is not to imply that the decision to offer a dividend is necessarily a sinister plot enacted by Kirby by fiat, but it is rather shocking to see the Chairman receiving almost double his (rather impressive at 462,000 GBP for 2011) salary in dividend payouts.

This deserves repeating.

The one man ops don't necessarily have to be small... I've been in one of a good size with 3 full size tables - IMHO the weakest aspect of the one man store model is the reduced hours. This has the side effect of artificially restricting the store's reach to the immediate vicinity, as people from further away can't get there early enough to make it worth while due to the limited operating times.

Only GW management has the numbers to determine if any drop off from this "range reduction" is offset by not having that second staffer. Given how they are promoting this new model - I would hazzard to say that financially, the one man ops probably make a lot of sense... reduce staff costs by 50%, reduced sales from shorter operating hours are probably less than that. Its a bit of a kick in the pants to anyone who has to rely on a one man op as their primary gaming venue, but them's the breaks. YMMV.