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-Loki- wrote:

happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)

It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.

Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN

We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.

Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.

People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.

SALES ARE DOWN.

Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.

Monster Rain wrote:Ah, nerd rage.

I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.

Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.

I agree, I swear the antinomy of the intenet makes people into machines of uncontrollable hate. Its a bit like video games. People on the internet take video games way too seriously. If theres a bad game, they act like the video game company personally went into their home and punched them in the face or something while stealing their money. Sure you may have bought a subpar product and wasted a few hours but its nothing personal, its just business (and it could be your fault for either being impulsive, reading the wrong reviews, or reading no reviews, having no one to play with, etc). The same can be applied to wargaming. Search your options, scout out the local scene, talk to people, and ultimately decide where your funds should go.

Dont like it, dont buy it.

Adam LongWalker wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)

It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.

Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN

We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.

Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.

People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.

SALES ARE DOWN.

Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.

Wow, so in a crappy economy a company that markets luxury items to folks with little disposable income has poor sales. Who would have thunk it?

kenshin620 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Ah, nerd rage.

I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.

Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.

I agree, I swear the antinomy of the intenet makes people into machines of uncontrollable hate. Its a bit like video games. People on the internet take video games way too seriously. If theres a bad game, they act like the video game company personally went into their home and punched them in the face or something while stealing their money. Sure you may have bought a subpar product and wasted a few hours but its nothing personal, its just business (and it could be your fault for either being impulsive, reading the wrong reviews, or reading no reviews, having no one to play with, etc). The same can be applied to wargaming. Search your options, scout out the local scene, talk to people, and ultimately decide where your funds should go.

Dont like it, dont buy it.

Yes, it is easy to point fingers and say that it is because of the internet, but the point of the matter is that the guy is P.O.'ed about his favorite game. Like it or not, some people really do WANT to play, even if GW wants to just use "Business decisions" as a basis for stupity. They didn't outright "come in and punch anyone in the face", but people are passionate and vocal fans that are being pushed in directions they honestly never wanted to go. "Oh, look!! the price rise, change to the sub-par crap, the closings of the stores, etc. have nothing to do with joe the average gamer, when they have maybe put down hard earned coin to the tune of 300+ bucks to even set foot on the board.

What happens when you DO like it, but can't keep up with some assjacks "Idea" of fun?
Bathing in the blood of sisters of battle? really? THATS fun? lickies and the chewies at 3 times the price, but do as little if less forthe army? and then you get to find out IN game?

No. some people I've found honestly believe they do not HAVE a choice, seeing as how GW's stranglehold on the collective psych does to just "average" teens and players.
People buy in to have fun, not get into the privy and lose thier shirt over a miniatures game. THATS probibly the worst part about it, too.

You can't cultivate a group when your telling people they have to throw down more and more for less and less.
You can vote with your feet, but when you don't get the choices of savy players, break ground in NEW directions, and actually jump in to something new.

Letter written by author who grossly misrepresents the average GW customer. Typical.

Finecast is better than metal was in plenty of ways, and the author clearly hasn't had a great deal of experience with it. White Dwarf is nothing less than it needs to be. I think that GWs in-store policies are normal and perfectly acceptable. I think that game support for the pickiest of players is a rather low priority for a company that primarily manufactures a hobby product - TFG is the lowest common denominator.

I'm a competitive player and I've also been playing longer than the average GW customer has been alive. I remember when it was about having a great game rather than hair-pulling about rules.

Call me a fanboy. I can think of an irrelevant and condescending title for you too. It's amazing the things people will write that they won't say to your face.

Grot 6 wrote:No. some people I've found honestly believe they do not HAVE a choice, seeing as how GW's stranglehold on the collective psych does to just "average" teens and players.
People buy in to have fun, not get into the privy and lose thier shirt over a miniatures game. THATS probibly the worst part about it, too.

The hyperbole is getting to be a bit much, brah.

A: People do have a choice. There's plenty of other miniature companies out there, and other game systems, and a whole world full of exciting ways to waste time. GW isn't the Galactic Empire.

B: Show me someone who lost their shirt because of the GW price increase, and I'll show you someone with poor money management skills.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Call me a fanboy. I can think of an irrelevant and condescending title for you too. It's amazing the things people will write that they won't say to your face.

It's amazing how many people you meet from these forums around the tournament circuit. It's not nearly as anonymous as some people think, for better or worse.

I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech. I got interested in 40k cause I liked the fluff so I picked up a AoBR set and some second hand models.

After a reading the rulebook and looking at some other products and buying some second hand models I began to realize how inaccessable this game is for most people. For instance if you want to play battletech (or any catalyst game) for the first time to see how you like it you have to spend 0 dollars. Thats right 0, just mosi on over to catalyst game labs and download the free pdf's for whatever game you want to try and it has the basic rules with cutouts of units to print out. Liek battletech? Want more? Get ready you have to spend a whole $50. The box set has 26 plastic units with the FULL rulebook and everything else you need. This isnt even takign into account the ease of accesing other products, all of which are available as pdf downloads that are cheaper than their physical counterparts.

I spent 100 bucks on AoBR and while it does have a good amount of content there is still A LOT more you need to really get into the game. I spent an extra 250 on some second hand tyranid models (basically 1000pnts) but I still need to buy the rulebook and the tyranid codex. At this point im selling my Tyranids off (breaking even) to buy some more battletech stuff and to save for the new Leviathans set which has a lot more value. Basically for that 1000pnts of tyranids im selling I can afford 29 metal mechs second hand, a new Battletech box set with 26 plastics in it and all the other goodies, and the New leviathans set when it comes out with 8 large flying battleships (3-5inch long models) and a bunch of other goodies and ill still have money left over. Im keeping my AoBR as I can play around with it with friends and keep a foot in the door so to speak but I think GW needs to really rework their business practices. There are tons of way they could increase interest in their product and increase sales while giving gamers exactly what they want.

Question is, what do the gamers want? How do you please everyone? I'd wager it's not possible.

Mr Mystery wrote:Question is, what do the gamers want? How do you please everyone? I'd wager it's not possible.

Free models, and GW provides them with ample gaming space free of charge.

Grot 6 wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Ah, nerd rage.

I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.

Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.

I agree, I swear the antinomy of the intenet makes people into machines of uncontrollable hate. Its a bit like video games. People on the internet take video games way too seriously. If theres a bad game, they act like the video game company personally went into their home and punched them in the face or something while stealing their money. Sure you may have bought a subpar product and wasted a few hours but its nothing personal, its just business (and it could be your fault for either being impulsive, reading the wrong reviews, or reading no reviews, having no one to play with, etc). The same can be applied to wargaming. Search your options, scout out the local scene, talk to people, and ultimately decide where your funds should go.

Dont like it, dont buy it.

Yes, it is easy to point fingers and say that it is because of the internet, but the point of the matter is that the guy is P.O.'ed about his favorite game. Like it or not, some people really do WANT to play, even if GW wants to just use "Business decisions" as a basis for stupity. They didn't outright "come in and punch anyone in the face", but people are passionate and vocal fans that are being pushed in directions they honestly never wanted to go. "Oh, look!! the price rise, change to the sub-par crap, the closings of the stores, etc. have nothing to do with joe the average gamer, when they have maybe put down hard earned coin to the tune of 300+ bucks to even set foot on the board.

What happens when you DO like it, but can't keep up with some assjacks "Idea" of fun?
Bathing in the blood of sisters of battle? really? THATS fun? lickies and the chewies at 3 times the price, but do as little if less forthe army? and then you get to find out IN game?

No. some people I've found honestly believe they do not HAVE a choice, seeing as how GW's stranglehold on the collective psych does to just "average" teens and players.
People buy in to have fun, not get into the privy and lose thier shirt over a miniatures game. THATS probibly the worst part about it, too.

You can't cultivate a group when your telling people they have to throw down more and more for less and less.
You can vote with your feet, but when you don't get the choices of savy players, break ground in NEW directions, and actually jump in to something new.

Well I more or less already said this in a previous post about that people sometimes dont have a choice in this matter community wise. I was talking in a bit more personal scale in this case. If though there is a community fine with GW, then why have also have discussions with them? List what you like/do not like and come up with agreements or compromises to make everyone's experience enjoyable. While in a GW store this is next to impossible (and I am sorry if this is you're only option), other more relaxed areas can be flexible. Dont like constantly updated codexes? Why not stick to the older ones or fandexes such as the ones found on dakka. Have problems with rising price increases? Then be content with what you have, pool in resources with other people, use proxies, worse case scenario get a relative who visits you in case you live in Australia or something.

If you do lose your shirt from this, then maybe you need to take a chill pill and calm down about this.

Mr Mystery wrote:Question is, what do the gamers want? How do you please everyone? I'd wager it's not possible.

While its not possible to please everyone that doesnt give them an excuse not to try. Im sure everyone here know of other gaming business' that do a better job of satisfying customers than GW does.

Spelling shouldnt matter in this letter,I think they will get the jist! ha

bib wrote:Spelling shouldnt matter in this letter,I think they will get the jist! ha

Yes, it will. If you write GW a letter filled with grammatical and spelling errors, they're never going to take it seriously.

If written in a respectable way I would agree with this letter. However, seeing as civility is something entirely absent, I highly doubt this will get past the initial reader.

coolyo294 wrote:

bib wrote:Spelling shouldnt matter in this letter,I think they will get the jist! ha

Yes, it will. If you write GW a letter filled with grammatical and spelling errors, they're never going to take it seriously.

Once again I'll agree although really we already established this on page one!

Although I also advise not to use too many big words and droning about some allegory. That will make you come off as some type of pompous prick. A good example is this post basically bashing tournament players

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=233641

Cpt Jake Wrote:

Wow, so in a crappy economy a company that markets luxury items to folks with little disposable income has poor sales. Who would have thunk it?

The whole Irony of this is that that are other companies that are selling luxury items, such as Privateer Press are making a profit in these hard times!!!

This is a difference between a company that is listening to their market and one who is not.

keisukekun wrote:I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech. I got interested in 40k cause I liked the fluff so I picked up a AoBR set and some second hand models.

After a reading the rulebook and looking at some other products and buying some second hand models I began to realize how inaccessable this game is for most people. For instance if you want to play battletech (or any catalyst game) for the first time to see how you like it you have to spend 0 dollars. Thats right 0, just mosi on over to catalyst game labs and download the free pdf's for whatever game you want to try and it has the basic rules with cutouts of units to print out. Liek battletech? Want more? Get ready you have to spend a whole $50. The box set has 26 plastic units with the FULL rulebook and everything else you need. This isnt even takign into account the ease of accesing other products, all of which are available as pdf downloads that are cheaper than their physical counterparts.

I spent 100 bucks on AoBR and while it does have a good amount of content there is still A LOT more you need to really get into the game. I spent an extra 250 on some second hand tyranid models (basically 1000pnts) but I still need to buy the rulebook and the tyranid codex. At this point im selling my Tyranids off (breaking even) to buy some more battletech stuff and to save for the new Leviathans set which has a lot more value. Basically for that 1000pnts of tyranids im selling I can afford 29 metal mechs second hand, a new Battletech box set with 26 plastics in it and all the other goodies, and the New leviathans set when it comes out with 8 large flying battleships (3-5inch long models) and a bunch of other goodies and ill still have money left over. Im keeping my AoBR as I can play around with it with friends and keep a foot in the door so to speak but I think GW needs to really rework their business practices. There are tons of way they could increase interest in their product and increase sales while giving gamers exactly what they want.

Inaccessable? Do you take into account the difficulty of finding people to play battletech? It was a great game in its day, but the player base has shrunk drastically. The new guy who downloaded the rules will be lucky to find a big group of players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Adam LongWalker wrote:[Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN

We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.

Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.

People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.

SALES ARE DOWN.

Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.

Having an arguement over and over might mean not everyone agrees with you, maybe? Even when you use caps and colors!

Sales are down all over, it's called a depression. It's easy to attribute sales going down to most anything, not necessarily your own personal favorites.

But before you type your return rant, can you help me with internet etiquette? Am I supposed to type in capitals, use bright red, and call you a spin-doctoring hater?

mikhaila wrote:

Sales are down all over, it's called a depression. It's easy to attribute sales going down to most anything, not necessarily your own personal favorites.

So, are YOUR sales down? Last I saw you were expanding your store space. PP's sales arent down either. Funny how folks like yourself trot out the depression, yet your expanding during it. Funny how PP is expanding. Paizo seems to expand......so are others. Yet the biggest monkey on the block hasnt. And hasnt in years in terms of unit sales.

What was the excuse in 2006? 2003?

CptJake wrote:
Wow, so in a crappy economy a company that markets luxury items to folks with little disposable income has poor sales. Who would have thunk it?

Not Malifaux, Infinity or Privateer Press apparently.


And just as an aside, we are not in a recession or depression by any measurement. This is also assuming that miniature gaming is a luxury good and people actively spend more on miniatures as their income increases. I usually buy enough miniatures to keep me busy--and I doubt if I came into 100k dollars tomorrow I would increase my spending on miniatures exponentially.


We do not have access to their internal production numbers but given inflation and revenues--it's not difficult to parse out the theory that sales are down substantially. You cannot attribute this to consumer spending--as other miniature lines are increasing their sales exponentially (to the point of outstripping production). If spending was truly down for the market, it would be down across the board.

However, what we are seeing is consumers shifting their funds into other miniature lines, which they (we assume) perceive is a better value. I would assume this means GW has surpassed the curve and needs to freeze or reduce their cost point. I don't think they give a gak though--I think they're going to squeeze store closures and profit margins right up until Kirby and Co. retire--then the company will sale. Which makes me sad--as I love the IP and fear what a Hasbro/Unknown company might do.

AgeOfEgos wrote:as I love the IP and fear what a Hasbro/Unknown company might do.

Is D&D 4th ed really that bad?

Adam LongWalker wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)

It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.

Read the most recent GW financial report. SALES are DOWN. PROFITS are DOWN

We have had this argument here (and other places) over and over and over again. We have heard about the silent majority and how they do not care. We have heard various arguments over the years down playing the results of corporate mismanagement to the same results.

Game Workshop and the Apoligists CAN NOT spin doctor away the facts given to the most recent Financial report.

People are Voting with their Wallet and THAT is according to GW's own sales figures.

SALES ARE DOWN.


Edited. The posting sounded a bit rough so I'll apologize for it. Information and different viewpoints are needed to have a reasonable dialog.

and so try another price rise to regain what they have lost...

thanks yet again GW for being backwards

mikhaila wrote:

keisukekun wrote:I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech. I got interested in 40k cause I liked the fluff so I picked up a AoBR set and some second hand models.

After a reading the rulebook and looking at some other products and buying some second hand models I began to realize how inaccessable this game is for most people. For instance if you want to play battletech (or any catalyst game) for the first time to see how you like it you have to spend 0 dollars. Thats right 0, just mosi on over to catalyst game labs and download the free pdf's for whatever game you want to try and it has the basic rules with cutouts of units to print out. Liek battletech? Want more? Get ready you have to spend a whole $50. The box set has 26 plastic units with the FULL rulebook and everything else you need. This isnt even takign into account the ease of accesing other products, all of which are available as pdf downloads that are cheaper than their physical counterparts.

I spent 100 bucks on AoBR and while it does have a good amount of content there is still A LOT more you need to really get into the game. I spent an extra 250 on some second hand tyranid models (basically 1000pnts) but I still need to buy the rulebook and the tyranid codex. At this point im selling my Tyranids off (breaking even) to buy some more battletech stuff and to save for the new Leviathans set which has a lot more value. Basically for that 1000pnts of tyranids im selling I can afford 29 metal mechs second hand, a new Battletech box set with 26 plastics in it and all the other goodies, and the New leviathans set when it comes out with 8 large flying battleships (3-5inch long models) and a bunch of other goodies and ill still have money left over. Im keeping my AoBR as I can play around with it with friends and keep a foot in the door so to speak but I think GW needs to really rework their business practices. There are tons of way they could increase interest in their product and increase sales while giving gamers exactly what they want.

Inaccessable? Do you take into account the difficulty of finding people to play battletech? It was a great game in its day, but the player base has shrunk drastically. The new guy who downloaded the rules will be lucky to find a big group of players.

By inaccessable I mean the Monetary startup costs for 40k which is much higher than other game systems.

Battletech's popularity has been on the upswing since Catalyst took the reigns. Many people say quality wise the game is better than ever and I agree. In some locations it is hard to find players and other not so hard. New battletech products are released once or twice a MONTH and all sell really well due to the accessability. Me and all the other battletech fans agree that the player base is growing and fast.

keisukekun wrote:
I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech.

This might have a bit more to do with how your opinions are formed, than with anything else.)

I tend to look at things based on reports from many different stores. Battletech may, (or may not) be growing again, but overall, the player base is much more of "I used to play back in the day" than "We have an active growing group". The major complaint I hear from Battletech players is the problem of getting old friends to play, and the lack of new players coming into the game.

It will obviously vary from store to store, but overall, it's a lot easier to find someone for a game of 40k vs battletech.

kenshin620 wrote:

Is D&D 4th ed really that bad?

Yes. Yes it is. Or rather 4e is yet another mess that seems on the decline, while the competition(Pathfinder) is thriving and expanding. Its slightly more complicated then that, but WOTC isnt anywhere near as crappy behavior wise GW has been. Although the GSL fiasco was bad. Hasbro on the other hand, doesnt care much- D&D is never mentioned in finacial reports.

Hasbro only bought out WOTC to get Magic, the Gathering. D and D was a side effect

Pathfinder is a far better game then 4th ed.

Ascalam wrote:Hasbro only bought out WOTC to get Magic, the Gathering. D and D was a side effect

Pathfinder is a far better game then 4th ed.

*nods* Yup, and most likely also when they had the pokemon license, which was huge.(of course I dont remember when the buyout was, nor when they got the license). But yeah, magic has been mentioned from time to time- D&D never.

And yes, pathfinder is a better game. But again, its paizo- which like say PP, communicates well, has a good game, and a good plan. Where as GW and WOTC's 4e seem to be on the same trajectory, downward, but for different reasons.

Ascalam wrote:Hasbro only bought out WOTC to get Magic, the Gathering. D and D was a side effect

Pathfinder is a far better game then 4th ed.

Wait really? I thought they tried to get Pokemon TGC but then after that was moved to Nintendo Hasbro was like "WoTC? yea they dont do anything compared to our My Little Pony line"

edit
Darn ninjas!

All the angry letters in the world won't do anything. Not buying anymore will. Why waste your time?

Won't get listened to.

mikhaila wrote:keisukekun wrote:
I have to agree with most of his points. Im new to GW products, my main game is Battletech.

This might have a bit more to do with how your opinions are formed, than with anything else.)

I tend to look at things based on reports from many different stores. Battletech may, (or may not) be growing again, but overall, the player base is much more of "I used to play back in the day" than "We have an active growing group". The major complaint I hear from Battletech players is the problem of getting old friends to play, and the lack of new players coming into the game.

It will obviously vary from store to store, but overall, it's a lot easier to find someone for a game of 40k vs battletech.

Well I cant argue with the fact that its easier to find GW players. But battletech aside I can easily start Playing Warmachine whose prices are comparable to GW and cheaper in some cases cheaper.