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The reason people get so sore about this is because when someone is beyond help or needs so much advice you dont know where to begin some people put "nice job" just to be encouraging. which is fine really...

Then your decent/good minis when you post get critisized, which is also fine because you generally want to know what to do better anyway and its helpful (somtimes)...

put these two things in context of eachother, however, and you get... "OMG that guy is rubbish and people is saying well done and mine is quite good and people are saying what is wrong with my models! ahhhhhhh!"

Now that is actually quite annoying if your having a bad day. If i got nothing to offer, i just click next thread. Simples.

Spyder68 wrote:I completly disagree with the route the OP is taking.

If somone isn't the best painter, no one should be telling them their model is terrible.

At least they painted it, and if they took the time to post it on the forum, they at least tried some.

Is it that hard in these days to give a compliment and advice in the same to help them improve ?

Oh your Necrons look terrible, the paint is on to thick.

instead of.

Its a great start, but the paint is a bit thick and try this and that next time.

There is a polite way to do things, then a wrong way.


If your going to comment on somones paint job that you think is sub par, to me, give advice in a nice way, or don't post at all. I thought gaming and paint forums were meant to be a helpful resource ?

Oh yea.. this is the interwebz... nvm!

This right here. I disagree with OP, honestly it seems like a very angry mentality to have.

Does it really bother you that people get compliments on something that isn't up to your standard? How does it affect you at all?


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arkapello wrote:

put these two things in context of eachother and you get... "OMG that guy is rubbish and people is saying well done and mine is quite good and people are saying thing what is wrong with my models! ahhhhhhh!"

I think this is the way OP is feeling....

There is a difference between saying "wow that is a nice model" and "good first attempt". I think the OP is taking the comments out of context. When I say well done to a new painter or someone who struggles to paint it's in that context. If i was comparing it to a GD model in the same sale i would say it was a bad model but i'm not. Different levels of painting have different scales when I come to judging them.

Spyder68 wrote:I completly disagree with the route the OP is taking.

If somone isn't the best painter, no one should be telling them their model is terrible.

At least they painted it, and if they took the time to post it on the forum, they at least tried some.

Is it that hard in these days to give a compliment and advice in the same to help them improve ?

Oh your Necrons look terrible, the paint is on to thick.

instead of.

Its a great start, but the paint is a bit thick and try this and that next time.

There is a polite way to do things, then a wrong way.


If your going to comment on somones paint job that you think is sub par, to me, give advice in a nice way, or don't post at all. I thought gaming and paint forums were meant to be a helpful resource ?

Oh yea.. this is the interwebz... nvm!

I agree with this; if someone isn't the best of painters I would rather give advice on how to improve rather then telling them there model is rubbish.

ruminator wrote:

Breeezy wrote:

aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.

And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."

You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap

I thought your models were metal, so the correct phrase would be a waste of metal ...

You cannot waste metal models... they strip easily, comapred to GW plastics

The way things have been cultured here on Dakka has always been to applaud effort and add helpful tips for the future. It's never ok to completely attack a model, but to give tips on the next rung of the ladder they need to be reaching for the next time they pick up the brush is always helpful. Tact is always the most important part of helping another poster understand the direction you are trying to aim them.

It's never ok to just berate effort in any of the Dakka modeling forums. But to pick out one or two things they might try for the future, possibly with links to help guide them would be acceptable. And that's without the addition of a 'good job/good try'.

Saying something along the lines of "Next model, try a thinning your paints a little akin to this LINK. Brush control will also go a long way to helping your paint scheme tighten up. Here's a video on working on brush control you might want to check out LINK."

In that I never told them their paint scheme was a good job, didn't say they made a good effort. But I also didn't berate the poster for taking the time to share their work. If someone is posting on the forums it's likely that they are looking to learn something, especially when they aren't posting the highest quality work. They don't just want pats on the head.

Insults and put downs will never EVER be tolerated here.

I don't think that "nice job" is akin to getting a Golden Demon Trophy. As far as compliments go, "nice" is pretty mild praise. Plus everyone has a different standard.

I'd rather have a chance to see some newly painted models here and there even if they're not all Golden Demon Winners. I like getting compliments for my models when I post pics - even though they are fairly average by anyone's standards.

For some people, just GETTING them painted is an accomplishment! Right? Like the guy who's been playing against me for four years with all unpainted stuff. You can bet I'll give him a "nice job" if he gets some of them painted... even if I've seen better work in my day!

Last time I posted a dude, he was one of my first models and I got poked fun at for him "not having a face".

I've come a long way, but honestly I don't play these games for the Painting Aspects, which is Why I don't upload alot.

For the last time:

I'm not saying to tell people that their painting is crap. I'm simply stating that empty compliments on paintjobs that obviously need major improvement are counter productive to criticism.

Everyone got this impression that I hate bad paintjobs(or at least what I consider to be bad paintjobs more specifically). I have no problem with people who are just learning how to paint or have given it honest effort and posted their results. It's people telling them more or less that there is nothing to improve on.

I'm not the greatest painter. Been doing it for years, and I can honestly say that it's decent. However every time I post pics I ask for criticism on it so that I find ways to improve the next model. All I care about is how to get better. I'm not saying everyone should be like me. At the same time we shouldn't be coddling people into a false sense of accomplishment.

Hate me if you want, I really am not worried about that. But understand at least where I am coming from. THE PAINTER IS NOT THE BAD GUY HERE.

I understand where you're coming from Aerethan. What I like to do is pick one specific individual whose painting just downright shocks me that they consider it 'good' and try to shepherd them through improvement.

One-on-one advice with someone who actually wants to learn is the key here. I try to do the same with fluff as well.

One can be critical of painting methods without being critical of the painter. Its not hard. Note methods that can be used to improve X and Y. Then quit commenting.




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J'santai Khan wrote:

aerethan wrote:A person to learn from is Gordon Ramsey. Having just watched all of Kitchen Nightmares, he had 1 major rule to business owners, and I think the same should go for painters. Don't listen to all the positive feedback as all it does is inflate your ego. Listen to the negatives, as they are the ONLY place where you learn what to improve.

Here's a little situation that I have had to witness on MULTIPLE occasions, that I think is very similar....

I have been tattooing for more than 25 years. I like to think that I am pretty good at it, and I have a ton of loyal clients and trophies that help back up that assumption. In the coarse of my career, I have, on occasion, been persuaded to take on apprentices who would like to learn the trade. Some of them kept their egos in check and are currently doing very well for themselves. However, there have also been more than a few who let their 'friends' tell them how great thier work was, allowed their egos to get the best of them and decided, quite prematurely, that they were 'ready for the big leagues'! Most of them didn't last a month. The couple that made it through the first few months, have both told me (years later) that they wished they hadn't listened & had seen the apprenticeship through to the end.

The tattoo industry will chew you up & spit you out without blinking an eye. If you say you can do it, you had better be able to back it ALL up. '

The painting forums might not be on the same level as my chosen industry, but I think the same train of thought still applies. If someone posts a pic of something that is not up to par, rather than giving praise where it is obviously not deserved and taking the chance that complacency might set in, a bit of well worded criticism would not only be more appropriate, but in the long run, more appreciated.

I happen to COMPLETELY agree with the OP on this one.

The difference of course is that one is a business, the other is something to kill time until you die.

I Agree with the OP, don't post something nice, if the paintjob / conversion / work of art is not good.
People are either posting pics to get feedback to be better, or hollow praise.

I started in the gaming hobby at 8 years old, now at 35 I can paint to a decent tabletop quality that alot of people praise. However I generaly think that most of my paintjobs are GAK. This is mostly because my close gaming buddies are true talented artists, One is a schooled comic book artist that has, one paints museum displays, and the third has no formal training but easily outshines the three of us combined, and could win Golden Demon level contests if he would ever call a miniature finished and enter it.
When I show them a figure I expect the truth, and positive suggestions to get better.

I run multiple retail sales locations and I can tell you that most people when giving them feedback using the Positive-opportunity-Positive or sandwich method, they often do not hear what they need to work on. Our society has coddled us way to long. We need to be honest and firm, no reason to be mean to others.

Personally I would rather see an apocalypse sized army of grey plastic and shiny metal across the board, instead of 95% of the armies I have paired up against in my gaming career.

Quotes from my lecturers while doing my Graphic Design degree (collected by the whole class for our final exhibition):
"Do it my way and do it now"
"Who's designing this, me or you?"
"Less red!"
"More red!"
"Listen to that little voice in your head. Mine's telling me... "
"I find your tantrums a tad challenging"
"Are you sure that's the image you want to project?"
"Are we going to argue over colours?"
"If there were a design police, you'd be arrested."
"Is this a last minute job?"
"By this stage you should know better"
"Okay, we'll wait until the class next door goes all quiet then we'll make heaps of noise..."
"That's good. For a rough."
"Never use that green again"

And from one of my classes:
Me: [looking at a student's work in progress] That's a really horrible font
Student A: it's cute!
Me: No, it's just hideous
Student B: I'd rather punch myself in the face than look at it!

The point being: sometimes you have to tell it how it is.
BUT - as several others have pointed out - context is important. In a class, or a face to face meeting, it's easier because you can use tone, and (hopefully) you know the person and where they're coming from; but on the internet, what you see is what you get, and anonymous comments sometimes go astray. I'm afraid, that you'll just have to deal with it - you have to be prepared for good comments and bad. If you don't like the bad comments, ignore them, or don't post in the first place.

finnan wrote:Quotes from my lecturers while doing my Graphic Design degree (collected by the whole class for our final exhibition):
"Do it my way and do it now"
"Who's designing this, me or you?"
"Less red!"
"More red!"
"Listen to that little voice in your head. Mine's telling me... "
"I find your tantrums a tad challenging"
"Are you sure that's the image you want to project?"
"Are we going to argue over colours?"
"If there were a design police, you'd be arrested."
"Is this a last minute job?"
"By this stage you should know better"
"Okay, we'll wait until the class next door goes all quiet then we'll make heaps of noise..."
"That's good. For a rough."
"Never use that green again"

And from one of my classes:
Me: [looking at a student's work in progress] That's a really horrible font
Student A: it's cute!
Me: No, it's just hideous
Student B: I'd rather punch myself in the face than look at it!

The point being: sometimes you have to tell it how it is.
BUT - as several others have pointed out - context is important. In a class, or a face to face meeting, it's easier because you can use tone, and (hopefully) you know the person and where they're coming from; but on the internet, what you see is what you get, and anonymous comments sometimes go astray. I'm afraid, that you'll just have to deal with it - you have to be prepared for good comments and bad. If you don't like the bad comments, ignore them, or don't post in the first place.

These sound like quotes from people who have extremely small lives.

There is a hefty difference between a college course where you expect your professor to tell it exactly as it is and not always in the most positive manner, and our humble forum where rule #1 is being polite.

Simple solution- just keep your mouth shut. I generally don't post in the painting and modeling section because if I don't have anything nice to say I don't say anything. That doesn't mean don't criticize, it just means do it nicely and applaud the effort if not the results.

while I don't disagree with the thought, because we all have it internally, what I disagree with is discouragement.

in the Air Force, I learned really fast how to say "you're an asshat, go eff yourself" but it sounded more like "with all due respect, I believe that it is prudent that we obtain input from other members of the team for this project."

instead of telling people that "your stuff sucks", maybe include how they could improve it?

and it might "suck" to you, but they can be quite proud of it. and thats a sure fire way to ruin our hobby. its already filled with asshat eliteists, and it needs to stop.

just say (as many have already said) nice attempt bro, here is a great article for improving your skills. take a look at it.

I love how on Dakka you can't ever be nice for the sake of being nice. If you're complimenting someone on a job that isn't a GD quality job, you must be limiting their potential somehow.

Maybe, just maybe, while YOU may not like it, OTHERS like it. If you'd like criticisms, there's tons of people who would be perfectly willing to hand them out.

Like you said Aerethan, some people aren't made to ride motorcycles. Well then, some people weren't made to paint. But maybe they love the game, or the background, but if they can't paint then it's Dakka's job to tell them that they either have to get better or stop?

Pffft, the egos these days.

Cryonicleech wrote:I love how on Dakka you can't ever be nice for the sake of being nice. If you're complimenting someone on a job that isn't a GD quality job, you must be limiting their potential somehow.

Maybe, just maybe, while YOU may not like it, OTHERS like it. If you'd like criticisms, there's tons of people who would be perfectly willing to hand them out.

Like you said Aerethan, some people aren't made to ride motorcycles. Well then, some people weren't made to paint. But maybe they love the game, or the background, but if they can't paint then it's Dakka's job to tell them that they either have to get better or stop?

Pffft, the egos these days.

as a rider, I tend to take this one to heart i'm not a racer, i'm not all that fast, but I love to ride. been riding for 12 years now. and I ride at a good pace, but I am no Hayden.

same for warhammer, I love to paint, but I am no GD painter. my work is IMHO, adequate, but nothing special. and i'm ok with that.

but perhaps those of us that aren't great at what we do, also like the thrill of improving. even the GD winners didn't get there over night. its what makes a hobby a hobby. something you can enjoy, and improve to.

Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.

Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.

Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...

Or just act like human beings and have a shred of common courtesy for your fellow posters.

There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism but there is everything wrong in being an arse to someone and dressing it up as 'telling it like it is'. If you can't engage with someone in a reasoned and friendly manner and offer tips/advice without being rude, then don't post at all. Move on to another thread.

Troy wrote:

Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.

Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...

it has been my observation that adults do not exist on the internet, only adult aged children. I mean lets face it here, we all paint little figures and play games. has to be some kid in us somewhere. and i'm almost 31

its really just respect. all around respect. much love fellow gamers.

Troy wrote:

Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.

Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...

You can post the nicest criticism in the world, giving praise in one hand whilst pointing out things to be done better with the other hand.

Some people(kids and adults both) cannot take criticism. They are too vested in their ideas and their own ego that they view constructive criticism as "trolling" or "flaming".

You cannot just say that it's "people needing to act like adults and control ourselves better when posting". If people cannot take criticisms, then they have no business showcasing their work on the internet in Painting & Modeling.

Rimmy wrote:

Troy wrote:

Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.

Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...

it has been my observation that adults do not exist on the internet, only adult aged children. I mean lets face it here, we all paint little figures and play games. has to be some kid in us somewhere. and i'm almost 31

its really just respect. all around respect. much love fellow gamers.

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Kanluwen wrote:

Troy wrote:

Mewiththeface wrote:Maybe we put an age limit on the forum? If a kid can't take critcism, what is he doing posting his images? It should be expected! Praise should never be expected! ONLY EARNED. Or maybe a warning saying "You are posting in this section. Expect: Criticism, possible no praise, and information on how to get better.

Or alternatively, we can act like an adults and control ourselves better when posting...

You can post the nicest criticism in the world, giving praise in one hand whilst pointing out things to be done better with the other hand.

Some people(kids and adults both) cannot take criticism. They are too vested in their ideas and their own ego that they view constructive criticism as "trolling" or "flaming".

You cannot just say that it's "people needing to act like adults and control ourselves better when posting". If people cannot take criticisms, then they have no business showcasing their work on the internet in Painting & Modeling.

Of course, what you call a criticism, others might call an invitation to the dance.

I think it is important to be positive. While i never really comment on painting. I think its appropriate to say, "good Job" you could improve on X,Y & Z. People are much more likely to listen to you if it doesn't sound like you are attaching them.

Also, Its best support people painting. I have rarely seen a situation where someones painting was worse than bare metal.

The way I see it Warhammer is split into three parts, gaming, painting/modeling, and community. Obviously all three intersect at some level and we need to understand that. When I am gaming I would rather play a nice person that has a painted army than a person without either. When I am painting I would like for people to see that I am at least trying. While I don't win best painted at tournaments, from four feet away my models look nice.

This whole post is dedicated to the idea of perspective. The OP is coming from the perspective that we paint models for the sake of painting and so no compliments or nice job should be given if the model does not look fantastic. However, what if we come at painting from a gaming perspective? Would you rather play a grey army that hasn't been primed or an army that has paint on it? even if its thick. Or how about from a community perspective? Perhaps when people are posting they are less trying to say look at my work, and more look at me! I want to be a part of this community.

Painting is not the most fun of tasks for most of us. I would bet that most people paint their armies just for play. In my humble opinion any painting is good painting and deserves a nice job.

I was raised to give a good compliment for every bad compliment. It helps even it out that way so you don't come off like a total ass, or overbearingly nice. When I post my pictures or WIPs on here, I expect others to point out the flaws and things I should work on. But I also like to hear nice things along with it.

I definitely agree with not rubbing people's bellies just because they can't paint well. Encouraging them to practice certain techniques is probably a lot nicer (and productive).

If it looks bad I usually try to give them painting tips instead of saying "Nice Job."

If it's their first painted mini and it looks awesome I supress the urge for violence and congratulate them.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I think that the higher the standard of painting the more picky the criticism can afford to be because they need fine adjustments not general painting practice. The greater the quality on display the more they will get out of a precise critique and it's unlikely they will be discouraged if their work has a few problems pointed out.

This is why I've trended more, recently, towards commenting in the P&M threads of painters of good or higher caliber, who are more likely to benefit from a bit of specific constructive criticism. It's not that more novice painters couldn't benefit from the same treatment, but I tire of giving the same advice, ad nauseum, so I leave it to others. The atmosphere in many of those threads isn't to my liking, either, partly because of the coddling.

There was a thread a little while ago about adding guidelines to the Dakka gallery voting scale that contains a lot of the same general opinions as this thread. I was all for it, because I'm the type that wants to improve and consider criticism a means to that end - I want my DakkaDakka to be a tool for useful, if occasionally somewhat harsh, feedback as much as a resource for creative ideas. Others just want a pat on the back. Since this isn't (and will never be) my DakkaDakka, I simply leave those alone before I get all cranky 'bout kids these days (unless I'm already particularly cranky, in which case I'm not immune to the occasional rant, though I think I succeed at following Rule #1).

There are always exceptions to this, of course, depending on my mood. When I do comment on sub-par models, I soften the criticism with a bit of praise, even if I sometimes feel a bit dirty doing so, because that's the way things work, whether I think it's necessary and beneficial or not. I don't consider it worth the pissing and moaning about being a big meanie, most of the time (speaking generally, here - Dakka P&M isn't the only place where this issue arises). The point at which I have to really stretch to praise even the effort is the point at which I simply refuse to comment, at least on the model, itself (I can and will occasionally divert and address a previous comment, so I can put out what I think to be worthwhile info without bruising any baby-egos, if they seem to be present).