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Serder wrote:I don't feel like debating this anymore, say straw man like you want, I just used your arguments and turned them around and showed how they made no real sense as they can be used against most of what GW has done.

I would love to play the OP army and I think it is an awesome army. If some people find that offensive, so be it. Not my problem if they cannot make the difference between the nazis and the german army. And the 4th reich representing the neo nazis is not that widely known. I did not knew it was something that was associated with them until today. Perhaps OP is the same?!?!?

i just wanted to say that your taking a very mature stance on this, but the guy with the space wolf in his pic wont stop being offended by toys and trying to convince him that a person can have a themed army without wanting to cause a fuss or offend people may be a impossible task......

It wasn't just the 'Nazi' scientists as you insist on calling them. WWII sparked the biggest arms race since WWI. Radar, Sonar, Jets, Depth Charges, Submarines, Long Range Bombers, even Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles were all invented during WWII. Oh, and dont forget the harnessing of nuclear power.
So yes, we do have some things to thank the German war machine for.......

DrChaos wrote:the guy with the space wolf in his pic wont stop being offended by toys and trying to convince him that a person can have a themed army without wanting to cause a fuss or offend people may be a impossible task......

As I have said repeatedly, but apparently you are unable to see, I am not personally offended by the army. As I have also said repeatedly, I don't believe that the OP intended to make an army that offends. But again, he did. The choices he made, intentionally or unintentionally, are going to put some people's back up.

To repeat myself, "If the OP had named them the 1st Fallschirmjäger Division and not included a Hitler mini, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead he chose imagery that evokes nazi-ism intentionally or unintentionally to cause offense or drama."

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:It wasn't just the 'Nazi' scientists as you insist on calling them. WWII sparked the biggest arms race since WWI. Radar, Sonar, Jets, Depth Charges, Submarines, Long Range Bombers, even Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles were all invented during WWII. Oh, and dont forget the harnessing of nuclear power.
So yes, we do have some things to thank the German war machine for.......

Yes you are right sir, I was just trying to keep it simple

pretre wrote:

Also, how about you go at Marvel and tell them your opinions about the Captain america movie and red skull. Hey there are nazis there too. Indiana Jones was trying to give ideas to neo Nazis too right? Oh, Nazis Zombies in MW2 (or was it WaW??) that means the Nazis are coming back? No it is entertaining and cool to watch/play. WW2 themed army are cool to paint, there is no more then this.

Those are all the antagonists, not the protagonists.

What a ridiculous statement.

One of my 40k armies is a DE force that pillages, rapes & enslave all who they come across. In my mind, and in the mind of everyone I play, they are the antagonists. Even the DE themselves would recognise this. Your assertion that a 40k army is automatically a protagonist is quite ludicrous. Terrible rebuttal.

Also, for the record, anyone with any sort of eye for aesthetics can tell that the Nazi War Machine was a sexy piece of equipment, one that valued aesthetics above all else & therefore one that made a conscious effort to look good. With that in mind, modelling an army after them, for purely aesthetic reasons, is a good idea for anyone looking to make a sexy-looking IG force.

I am inclined to agree with Panda on his last comment for sure

I think the red is silly for an army that is otherwise in camouflage. Keep it for flags, banners etc. but not on the vehicles and troops themselves. Definitely like the Red Skull officer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

Almarine wrote:And really, if OP happens to be a nazi, why shouldn't he get to champion his cause on the tabletop?

lol
Now that's a great quote.
So we should now champion our political views in our 40k games? Can I put 'NObama' bumper stickers on my rhinos? Maybe I'll make the Cabal of Fiscal Responsibility dark eldar army.

Yeah...

I was thinking that yesterday actually. It would be quite funny if the purity seals were turned into advertising messages or political slogans. Simple things like 1/2 price off or Sale On, vote Palin or whatever. Or Rhinos with peace symbols and bumper stickers like "Save the Orks".

"Save the Orcs" Epic I exalted this
Although it would probably be more along the lines of "Save the Eldar" since they are the dying race

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:

pretre wrote:Those are all the antagonists, not the protagonists.

One of my 40k armies is a DE force that pillages, rapes & enslave all who they come across. In my mind, and in the mind of everyone I play, they are the antagonists. Even the DE themselves would recognise this. Your assertion that a 40k army is automatically a protagonist is quite ludicrous. Terrible rebuttal.

It's okay that you don't know the definitions of protagonist and antagonist. You can just say that instead of trying to say my rebuttal is terrible.
protagonist: a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event
Note that it isn't 'the good guy'
antagonist: the adversary or opponent
Note that it isn't 'the bad guy'

So when you are playing your DE, from your perspective they are the protagonist whether they are fighting against Hitler, Justice League or the Ultramarines. Whoever they are fighting, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus is the antagonist. The opponent. I bring this up because in each example you listed you described the antagonist from the movie, game or work of fiction. They aren't meant to be played as protagonists for exactly the reason that this thread has stretched to pages.

Also, for the record, anyone with any sort of eye for aesthetics can tell that the Nazi War Machine was a sexy piece of equipment, one that valued aesthetics above all else & therefore one that made a conscious effort to look good. With that in mind, modelling an army after them, for purely aesthetic reasons, is a good idea for anyone looking to make a sexy-looking IG force.

Agreed. And if you avoid Swastikas, Hitler and his Third/Fourth Reich BS and focus on the Actual German Warmachine, as I indicated earlier, that would be an awe-inspiring army.

pretre wrote:It's okay that you don't know the definitions of protagonist and antagonist. You can just say that instead of trying to say my rebuttal is terrible.
protagonist: a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event
Note that it isn't 'the good guy'
antagonist: the adversary or opponent
Note that it isn't 'the bad guy'

I know very well what the dictionary definitions of both protagonist & antagonist are, even if you wish to condescendingly presume otherwise. However you seem to have completely missed my point. Let me reiterate it for you.

Your original point was that it is ok for Nazis to be portrayed in fictional media so long as they are not the protagonists. Now, I see the connection you are trying to make, but by your own definition, the protagonist does not necessarily mean the good guy - there is such a thing as heroic antagonists & villainous protagonists. What you are trying to say is that they should not be portrayed as the 'good guys'. They can however, be portrayed very wel as protagonists - ever seen the film Downfall? The protagonist in that film was (dum dum dum) The Fuhrer himself, however he wasn't portrayed as a hero at all, but a villainous protagonist. Therefore we see that Nazis can be portrayed as protagonists, so your original quote:

pretre wrote:Those are all the antagonists, not the protagonists.

While being an astute observation, is a pretty bad rebuttal.

pretre wrote:So when you are playing your DE, from your perspective they are the protagonist

Correct! In a similar vein, when I play my Nazi army, from my perspective they are also the protagonist.

pretre wrote:They aren't meant to be played as protagonists for exactly the reason that this thread has stretched to pages.

Ok, but what about when I play against a Nazi army - from my perspective they are the antagonists. By your logic, they are justified in being there, because they are not protagonists. On that note, ANY Nazi army will be a protagonist to somebody, therefore when you say "they aren't meant to be played as protagonists" do you mean they shouldn't be played at all? Well why didn't you say so in the 1st place?

pretre wrote:They aren't meant to be played the 'good guys' for exactly the reason that this thread has stretched to pages.

Fixed it for you.

Way to ignore the most important part of my reply... If he ditched the Reich and hitler crap, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

pretre wrote:Way to ignore the most important part of my reply... If he ditched the Reich and hitler crap, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

You posted this part of your reply in agreement with something i had previously said, remember?

pretre wrote:

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Also, for the record, anyone with any sort of eye for aesthetics can tell that the Nazi War Machine was a sexy piece of equipment, one that valued aesthetics above all else & therefore one that made a conscious effort to look good. With that in mind, modelling an army after them, for purely aesthetic reasons, is a good idea for anyone looking to make a sexy-looking IG force.

Agreed. And if you avoid Swastikas, Hitler and his Third/Fourth Reich BS and focus on the Actual German Warmachine, as I indicated earlier, that would be an awe-inspiring army.

So I didn't really ignore it, as there was nothing more to say on the matter - we both agree on this point.

However, it's kind of hypocritical of you to say such a thing in a post that has almost completely ignored all of my reply.

wow!! I like it!

LordDeth wrote:Yea so this is him for those who havent seen.

Is that Maj. Armstrong I see there?

this thread is becoming ridiculous and pointless... nobody is talking about the OP's army...and after seeing idiots saying crap like " not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong... WW2 improved the technology..." I wish MODquisition will act swiftly and without mercy

Yes.....well..

TNT. We Know Drama.

Anyway, the army looks really good. I like the color scheme, well painted. I really like the fallschirmjager unit. I have to say that the snipers look really good, despite the not so camouflaged look, but as the OP entitled them, they are "propaganda snipers" which I can totally see.

-Gorg

pretre wrote:Way to ignore the most important part of my reply... If he ditched the Reich and hitler crap, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

Calm down guy. You think your putting people in their place or something by putting up wiki definition links and whatnot. Hitlers dead get over it. You seem to be fanatically defending people who might get offended as if you were a holocaust survivor yourself. Well my grandfather died in a concentration camp.

Anyways i appreciate most of the feedback. I will put up some more pics of new stuff in the near future. I was actually thinking of making the lost ark and using it as a psyker battle squad.

My grandfather fell from a watchtower btw. lol

punkow wrote:this thread is becoming ridiculous and pointless... nobody is talking about the OP's army...and after seeing idiots saying crap like " not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong... WW2 improved the technology..." I wish MODquisition will act swiftly and without mercy

Son, without war this planet would be 50 years or so behind the current tech state we are in now......it really isn't crap. And I already have commented on the army, I like it!
Also, there is one thing I do take offence to, and that's being called an idiot by someone who should know better. Grow up guy!

Saying that ww2 themes have no place in the 40k universe is silly.
DKOK is ww2 French, and Steel Legion is ww2 German.

I really liked the theme and execution of the color scheme. Aside from the bright red flags as cloaks on the snipers, looks cool, but functionally silly.

Great army, ignore the arseholes arguing over nothing, it is your army, you have painted and modelled it, so all the power to you my friend.

I've not read the thread, so here are my thoughts. I would be more concerned that the OP desperately wants it to be a 4th Reich army than what is actually depicted. There aren't any swastikas, with all the maltese crosses and the colour scheme it look more prussian - WW1 german to me, not WW2 nazi.

But if the OP want to then make it a '4th reich' then it's up to him, I have to say that that isn't my first impression on seeing the army.

Anyway, mostly I like the crosses on things, the knights templar - pre-WW1 prussian look. I think the painting is of a good standard. The only figure I don't like is here.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2011/8/10/910934f22bf5848e85c03ca348910392_47450.jpg

The one on the far right, he's just in red with a cross on him, it's too close to the source material. The other two are more stylised, he just looks like you couldn't think of another variant.

I think the army look just fine as it is, if you leave the 4th reich, Hitler and nazi crap out of it. Because the theme, the older empire look with maltese crosses looks great, but to then stick hitler in and call it the 4th reich, well that just looks like an adolescent cry for attention in the "what can I do that's controversial" kind of way.

Everyone knows the imperium of man is a horrible fascist regime, but you approach that with some subtlety and ty to make the army look like it fits with the warhammer background, you don't just stick hitler in. That's dumb.

Wow - I cannot believe I am the first German who posts his opinions about this...


Actually, in Germany, NO ONE GIVES A gak about miniatures painted in those colours and with those symbols. You could even put a Swastika or SS Symbols on the models. Why? Because it maybe looks awesome? The Wehrmachts divisions had a certain "grimdark" feeling in the uniforms and motivs, so what?

Why are people so upset about the Nazis? Putting aside that they were responsible for the greatest massacre in history (until now), do you think anybody would be offended by 28mm plastic in Nazi colours if for example the vietnam war caused more deaths and had more countries involved? That's like saying "What? You paint a miniature army in the colours of the Southern American states?? They were Slaveholders, you &%§$@³!! "


There are still laws in Germany that forbid the swastika to be shown in public.
However, for Germans of my generation, WW2 is history.


Btw: I think the colour - combination of black - red - white is very appealing to the eye.

Neato looking army. Great Paint Job.

pretre wrote:TLDR: If the OP had named them the 1st Fallschirmjäger Division and not included a Hitler mini, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead he chose imagery that evokes nazi-ism intentionally or unintentionally to cause offense or drama. That's the problem I have.

Saying that the possibility of offending someone who cannot perceive the difference between reality and a tabletop war-game is not a reason not to do it. It's like when people say you shouldn't do something because it's unnecessary - so? The 4th Reich, and the Nazis had a very imposing, imperialist image - with the greys, reds and distinct crosses. One can appreciate this artistic feature without supporting their message.

punkow wrote:this thread is becoming ridiculous and pointless... nobody is talking about the OP's army...and after seeing idiots saying crap like " not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong... WW2 improved the technology..."

Wow, thanks for calling me an idiot. I really appreciate it. Although I think you are mixing up the words 'crap' and 'facts'.

Not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong. This is a fact. Not crap.
WW2 improved technology. Again, also a fact. Not crap.

So maybe next time before you presume that because we are arguing we must be idiots, do a bit of research. We are adults, having a conversation about something which is quite relevant and topical for an army that is called '4th Reich IG army'.

Krellnus wrote:Great army, ignore the arseholes arguing over nothing

Again, cheers for calling me & several others 'arseholes'. I have already commented on how cool this army looks, and we are most certainly not "arguing over nothing". We are adults having a civilised discussion about a topical subject. If you can't handle that, don't resort to childish name-calling, and don't break rule no. 1. Be polite.

rakear wrote:DKOK is ww2 French

I think DKoK are more WW1 French, the whole trench/siege warfare thing is very WW1.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've not read the thread, so here are my thoughts. I would be more concerned that the OP desperately wants it to be a 4th Reich army than what is actually depicted. There aren't any swastikas, with all the maltese crosses and the colour scheme it look more prussian - WW1 german to me, not WW2 nazi.

Well unfortunately there is one swastika. But im not gonna say where it is. ill let someone find waldo.

In the shot of the Panzer Elite, the left hand shoulder pad of the power fist officer. I know I said I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but I like games.

htj wrote:In the shot of the Panzer Elite, the left hand shoulder pad of the power fist officer. I know I said I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but I like games.

actually i forgot about that guy i was planning on getting rid of that. I was referring to the command chimera behind him that everyone has failed to notice haha

Sweet Army!Let the haters hate.

LordDeth wrote:

htj wrote:In the shot of the Panzer Elite, the left hand shoulder pad of the power fist officer. I know I said I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but I like games.

actually i forgot about that guy i was planning on getting rid of that. I was referring to the command chimera behind him that everyone has failed to notice haha

Ha, brilliant! Even knowing where it was it took me ages to find it! Stealth swastikas... the deadliest swastikas of all.