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FITZZ wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:All I know is, kids behaved a lot better when it was ok to bust their ass for misbehaving. Now it is all time out stuff and begging them to behave. The line between fear and respect is rather thin.

I wouldn't say punks from the 70's (or even 60's hippies who spent most there time lazing about and smoking weed) were any better disciplined than the teens we have now. But maybe there was an age

when unruly youngsters was a rarer sight than it is today but I still remain doubtful that it actually exists.

Sex Pistols Bill Grundy interview..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRNOUz7uefA

Random kids lifted of youtube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiXc_03FVns&feature=related

... Which seems more rude and foul mouthed to you MilkDog..?

How many parents actually encourage there kids to swear though? Most parents in Canada would get pretty pissy if they saw there kid swearing like a trucker, now that I'm older my parents don't'

mind if I swear a little such as when I injure myself or am frustrated in fact even they let out the occasional .

@ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.

Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.

My fiance told me a story from her childhood, when she acted like a right little gak, pretty much trying to provoke her Dad. He warned her and she swore at him and he snapped, put her on his lap gave her enough of a whack that broke the wooden spoon and for a few seconds after that he still wanted to hit her again.

He lost it, and he knew he lost it, and he never hit her again after that, and used other ways to discipline her. Her mum still threatened a spanking, and occassionally followed through, because she knew she knew she wouldn't lose control in the same way.

I think that pretty much sums up the whole debate, for me - if you feel you are hitting your child because it is a necessary punishment and the best way of getting the message across, then you should be able to smack your child. If you lose control and your threat to your child is motivated by anger, then you shouldn't. And it's up to every parenting couple to make that decision for themselves.

I don't think hitting or not hitting has any relation to how troublesome a kid is - most of the real little monsters I know are spanked by their folks, the problem lies with inconsistent parenting, or time pressures meaning the parents aren't there enough, or because, well, some kids are just little bastards. And I think you can get by without ever needing to hit your kid, if that's how you want to do things, as timeout and other punishment will get kids to understand where the line is.

What really matters is that line being clearly drawn.


Oh, and we plan on spanking being a last line of punishment, if our future kids get out of line. I would hope that if either of us couldn't keep a straight head and hit one of our kids out of anger, we wouldn't ever consider hitting them again.

KingCracker wrote:Oh man, you are SO sounding like a collage kid with no children. Im talking, poster child for it

Probably.

Most parents think that they're more important than non-parents, so it gets me in a rage.

Parents, for the most part, don't nkow what the hell they're doing. I don't blame 'em for that, each child is unique and reacts differently, so each one has to be reacted to differently-- and almost no parents have any training for it and most don't have the psychology/sociology background appropriate for it either, nevermind actual lack in ability, so they do the best with what they have.

But it also means that no, b****, you are NOT better because you're a parent. Just because you fethed some guy and got knocked up at eighteen doesn't make me obligated to do anything for you and your little mistake.

FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.

Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.

Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.

Cheesecat wrote:

FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.

Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.

Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.

Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.

I'm glad my folks punished me physically when I was a kid. It builds character. Sort of. I think. Yeah.

FITZZ wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.

Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.

Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.

Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.

I've seen a lot of bratty and screamy kids but I haven't seen any with sailor mouths yet, still it makes me want to have kids even less. But then again they're kids so I don't expect them to be well behaved in the

first place, I feel maturity is something that comes with age and experience (also gaining some self awareness helps too ) and can't be taught.

Ever wonder if you did well DESPITE your parents rather than because of them?

djphranq wrote:I'm glad my folks punished me physically when I was a kid. It builds character. Sort of. I think. Yeah.

I don't know, my parents (well, my Father and Grandmother) beat my butt like it was an Olympic event and they were going for gold...and I don't know one way or other if it built character or not...I do know that it probably kept me from turning out much worse than I did, and I think on some level it's given me some insight as to what is and isn't effective when it comes to parenting...clouting the gak out of your kids isn't going to work...not on it's own...not with out talking to them...setting boundries...letting them know what's expected of them and what types of behavior will and won't be tolerated...and you can't just discipline...you've got to encourage and build them up...give them an "atta boy/girl...let them know your doing what you do because you care about what happens to them and the sort of people they're going to grow to be...

Cheesecat wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.

Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.

Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.

Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.

I've seen a lot of bratty and screamy kids but I haven't seen any with sailor mouths yet, still it makes me want to have kids even less. But then again they're kids so I don't expect them to be well behaved in the

first place, I feel maturity is something that comes with age and experience (also gaining some self awareness helps too ) and can't be taught.

Well I guess some lessons can be taught but I'm one of those people who has to make mistake after mistake before I get the message so depends on the kid really some need to be told, slapped,

embarrassed, etc.

FITZZ wrote:Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.

Or possibly you just notice it more, because you've changed.

sebster wrote:

FITZZ wrote:Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.

Or possibly you just notice it more, because you've changed.

You know Sebs, I've considered that....and perhaps it's partially true...but...like I said, I was a pretty bad kid...most of my friends were pretty bad kids as well, but even we knew better than to behave in the ways I've seen some ( a lot) of kids acting in the past ten or fifteen years...at least around adults..
Sure we cursed, got in fights...did all sorts of crap, but when we saw a grown up....or were around our folks...we watched our step, and that seemed to be the case with most kids when I was growing up...a kid telling his Mom to feth off would have probably gotten their head knocked off...screaming kids throwing tantrums were quickly carried out of stores...often with a smack on the butt to help them on the way....I can honestly say I never saw a child screaming and cursing there mother when I was a kid where the mother just stood there telling ( or asking) the child to " settle down or they'd be getting a time out"

chromedog wrote:

Kragura wrote:
What's the difference, do you mean behaving for the sake of behaving?

No.

Self discipline is knowing the difference between being able to do something and CHOOSING NOT TO and also knowing why the difference is important.

Not so much a case of "we can do this stuff." as "Wait. Should we be doing it?".

Of course, MY self-discipline came about because we actually had children being disciplined when I was one. Children who shoplifted were "talked to" by a local police sgt (who might have overstated things, but "scared straight" was a valid tactic back then). We didn't have 'gangs' of badly behaved oiks harassing people on the street, bashing them and stealing their phones (ok, that's because we didn't have phones on us worth stealing).

Thats what i meant by behaving for the sake of behaving, doing it because it's right, not because it could cause you pain if you don't.

FITZZ wrote: You know Sebs, I've considered that....and perhaps it's partially true...but...like I said, I was a pretty bad kid...most of my friends were pretty bad kids as well, but even we knew better than to behave in the ways I've seen some ( a lot) of kids acting in the past ten or fifteen years...at least around adults..
Sure we cursed, got in fights...did all sorts of crap, but when we saw a grown up....or were around our folks...we watched our step, and that seemed to be the case with most kids when I was growing up...a kid telling his Mom to feth off would have probably gotten their head knocked off...screaming kids throwing tantrums were quickly carried out of stores...often with a smack on the butt to help them on the way....I can honestly say I never saw a child screaming and cursing there mother when I was a kid where the mother just stood there telling ( or asking) the child to " settle down or they'd be getting a time out"

Sure, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that there's a fairly long history of people complaining that this new generation is the least disciplined we've ever had, and ruin is just around the corner, only for that generation to grow up, and complain the new crop of kids is the least disciplined ever, and so on.

But it'd be a mistake to assume that means a thing can't ever happen, and I've noticed some kids acting pretty terribly myself. So I'm not going to rule out the possibility that entitlements and parents working more hours can't have impacted children, I'm just going to say that it's really hard to tell for sure, one way or the other.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

biccat wrote:

LordofMuck wrote: I am raising my own first kid, and i have yet to see ANY situation that either warrants or needs me to take physically punitive/violent means towards my child.

Really? So when your kid reaches for the electrical socket/hot stove/blender you're going take the time to explain to them why it's wrong? Or are you going to slap them on the hand and say "no" and then, when they are out of danger, explain that the appliance is dangerous?

You could just grab their hand to stop them from touching the socket/wood chipper maybe?

What happens if they try to cross the street without looking both ways? Do you sucker punch them?

A swift kick to the kidneys works wonders.

ParatrooperSimon wrote:If you ever, EVER hit your child (IMO) you are a horrible parent, you never hit another human being that is smaller then you and cant defend him/herself (Why dont you smake a grown man for being silly and see how far you go. It is wrong and the most dumbest thing a parent can do. Even sending your son/daughter to bed without dinner is horribly crewl, you wont let your child eat food?...not having desert is fine. If you dont give your child one of his/her human right (which is a child must eat) you are also a horrible and terrible parent.

The only disipline that is right, is to send them to their room, and impose bans. that is all a parent should do, and if they keep acting up, you starting taking there toys/possensions away. (NO I DONT MEAN THERE bed or sleeping bits) then they will learn.

slapping a kid on his behind is still child abuse. I dont what you americans even think your doing, if I child swears, YOU SLAP THEM ON THE MOUTH!?!!?!?...no that is pretty much punching them in the face. if you slap your child I'd idvise you to see a parenting guide, or give you child to foster care, cause there not safe if you slap/smack/hit or dont let them eat.

Jesus you Americans have some funny ways of treating your kids.

Obviously you haven't seen a 5-year old puching - flat out punching! - his mother in a store because she won't buy him a toy. But just like you, she believes that enforcing discipline on a child is abuse...

Kragura wrote:

CoI wrote:
Me? I'm going to smack my kids. Not a lot of course, but having seen what happens to the kids who don't know dicipline...

What? what happens to those kids?

Those kids end up pushing their crap on someone who doesn't give a feth about 'their rights' and kicks the crap out of them. Or they end up so believing in their own divinity that they end up doing stupid crap and in jail. Or worse. Or they end up being the little bastards you see everywhere jumping random people because it's fun. I see a lot of it over here in Oz. The story above about the kid outright hitting his mom while she explains things to him... saw that last week. And I don't go out much. The kids are allowed to run amuck because it's too much effort to actually teach their children to behave.

CoI wrote:
Those kids end up pushing their crap on someone who doesn't give a feth about 'their rights' and kicks the crap out of them.

If you'll read what I said above I think that's more the fault of those who are hitting there kids.

Or they end up so believing in their own divinity that they end up doing stupid crap and in jail. Or worse.

Right we need to teach those arrogant kids a lesson, Right?

Or they end up being the little bastards you see everywhere jumping random people because it's fun.

The idea that you can establish dominance by beating someone is exactly the kind of lesson hitting a kid teaches, like I said before 'might makes right'

it's too much effort to actually teach their children to behave.

Which is exactly why people hit there kids, rather than bother to teach them right from wrong they enforce there rule through fear. What then happens when that fear disappears?

The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.

Real abuse are closed-fist beatings, assault with blunt objects, etc.

When I was a little gak my dad would slap me across the back of my head. Did it hurt? Hell yeah. Did I act up again? Nope. Was it abuse? Hell to the no.

Disrespect, bad attitudes, improper behavior are unacceptable. When I have kids, it'll be the same way.

I'm nearly 21 years old, and I still don't raise my voice to my parents. I don't talk back to them. I respect them just as much as when I was a kid. You know why, because they disciplined me. It's still "Yes ma'am, no ma'am" and "Yes, sir / No, sir"

It's called respect. Something this world lacks.

DickBandit wrote:The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.

Real abuse are closed-fist beatings, assault with blunt objects, etc.

When I was a little gak my dad would slap me across the back of my head. Did it hurt? Hell yeah. Did I act up again? Nope. Was it abuse? Hell to the no.

Disrespect, bad attitudes, improper behavior are unacceptable. When I have kids, it'll be the same way.

I'm nearly 21 years old, and I still don't raise my voice to my parents. I don't talk back to them. I respect them just as much as when I was a kid. You know why, because they disciplined me. It's still "Yes ma'am, no ma'am" and "Yes, sir / No, sir"

It's called respect. Something this world lacks.

Couldn't have said it better myself. You were raised the way a child should be.

DickBandit wrote:The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.

Real abuse are closed-fist beatings, assault with blunt objects, etc.

When I was a little gak my dad would slap me across the back of my head. Did it hurt? Hell yeah. Did I act up again? Nope. Was it abuse? Hell to the no.

Disrespect, bad attitudes, improper behavior are unacceptable. When I have kids, it'll be the same way.

I'm nearly 21 years old, and I still don't raise my voice to my parents. I don't talk back to them. I respect them just as much as when I was a kid. You know why, because they disciplined me. It's still "Yes ma'am, no ma'am" and "Yes, sir / No, sir"

It's called respect. Something this world lacks.

Let me get this straight, you're relationship with your parents is one of respect right? and you were made to respect them through violence? so your entire relationship with your father is based on fear and violence, right?
And you don't see what's utterly wrong with that? your father might have your respect, but he certainly doesn't have mine.

And I like how you somehow are able to tell exactly what is and isn't abuse. I'm sure that parents who hit kids with blunt objects don't think that what there doing is abuse either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

killykavekommando wrote:
Couldn't have said it better myself. You were raised the way a child should be.

He was raised to believe that dominating those weaker than you is a respectful and 'good' thing. this is exactly what I mean by discipline fething with your head.

DickBandit wrote:
Real abuse are closed-fist beatings, assault with blunt objects, etc.

You would be amazed, I think, at how much damage you can do to a person with an open hand.

DickBandit wrote:
I'm nearly 21 years old, and I still don't raise my voice to my parents. I don't talk back to them.

I don't see why, at the age of majority, you shouldn't challenge your parents simply because they're your parents.

DickBandit wrote:The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.

You know what's just as fethed up? This idea that enforcing discipline comes from the thread of physical punishment, and that leads to respect.

I know folk that refuse to hit their kids, and rely entirely on time out, and their kids respect them, because they're good people, who've given their children clear standards of behaviour, and they themselves act in a manner worthy of respect. I know folk that hit their kids, and the kids are still little monsters, because the parents act entirely on emotion and don't give the kids clear standards of behaviour. And I know plenty of folk with little bastards the parents won't hit, and plenty of folk with great kids that the parents will hit.

Because whether or not you spank your kid has got absolutely nothing to do with being a good parent. If you're a bad parent who isn't there for their kid, and who can't consistently show the line between right and wrong, your kid isn't going to respect you, whether you have the thread of physical violence or not. And for a lot of parents, they're lucky enough that they don't need a physical threat to keep their kids in line.

You can be a good parent, whether or not you hit your kid. But this idea that respect has to come from physical threat is just not true.

Kragura wrote:I get that i'll be in the minority here, but I'm unconvinced that discipline is even a desirable trait, that pretty much makes all physical punishment unacceptable in my book.

Ah, kids can be amazingly stubborn and they can talk to you to death and darn-well-do-whatever-they-want-so-try-to-stop-me.
I deal with violence and stealing strongly and I would rather dish out my own "physical punishment" than have them walk all over me and eventually have to deal with the police and their version of punishment.
Empathy is still not working out too well yet (5 and 6 year old boys), the "how would you feel if they did that to you?" stops not a thing, which is a bit shocking.
I had the same viewpoint as yourself and when nothing works and it looks like your kids see no consequence and starts acting like bullies, you work hard to fix it FAST especially when other innocent well behaved children start suffering.
Really, if a kid can push a parent around, who ARE they going to respect?
For two weeks my eldest kid came home with notes of hitting and kicking kids EVERY DAY, he doesn't get to see anything past a "G" rating and I barely raise my voice so I did not know how it was modeled.
He tried to hit me once and took a couple shots at the wife till I put my foot down.
I had to look my kid in the eye and say that for every time he hits someone he would get a spank "no matter what".
He had to try it out three times, arguing, negotiating, lying and in under a week no more hitting for months.
Had to remind him that this punishment was "his choice" not mine.

Anyway I agree with my dad, it hurts me more than him, he seems to forget it faster....

Talizvar wrote:Ah, kids can be amazingly stubborn and they can talk to you to death and darn-well-do-whatever-they-want-so-try-to-stop-me.

Yeah, there definitely needs to be a clear 'you're doing what I say because I say it' element. Kids don't always know best, and reason will only take you so far (either because the kid doesn't want to hear it, or because he simply doesn't have the faculties yet to reason his way through the issue).

Empathy is still not working out too well yet (5 and 6 year old boys), the "how would you feel if they did that to you?" stops not a thing, which is a bit shocking.

Empathy develops over time. Kids generally have an instinctive level from an early age, but the ability to actually stop and use empathy to reason through why they shouldn't do something that they really want to do comes somewhere between 8 and 11.

it's too much effort to actually teach their children to behave.

Which is exactly why people hit there kids, rather than bother to teach them right from wrong they enforce there rule through fear. What then happens when that fear disappears?

Ah, kids start off with a fair bit of amoral behavior.
Some are more naturally angry/happy than others as part of their nature (my kids are polar opposites).
We can demonstrate descent, kind behavior and hope they emulate it.
If it is loud and attention grabbing they tend to notice that more.

Understanding consequence seems to have no effect till about 6-7 years old I have seen.
Telling them of other ways to do things rather than get frustrated IS helpful.

But I tell you, there are times no matter how understanding and creative you are they do not care one tiny bit about you or anyone else if there is not some physical limit to their ambitions.
Are you nice to a complete stranger because you are happy and bubbly or because it is better to be polite "just in case".

Kids like to know the rules. It makes them nervous when there is no system and punishment.
Brother A could be free to ransack brother B's room and all manner of chaos would ensue.

Stable loving home make nice kids to be proud of, no rules and lots of talk is just that: talk.

But my point isn't that talking it out with them is a nicer alternative, it's that it's the only way to teach them right from wrong.

If a child lacks empathy I fail to see what punishment is going to teach them.

If they have empathy then punishment teaches them the wrong lesson

If an older child lacks empathy I believe that would likely be an example of psyopathy, and I wouldn't oppose restricting them from society entirely.

Kragura wrote:But my point isn't that talking it out with them is a nicer alternative, it's that it's the only way to teach them right from wrong.
If a child lacks empathy I fail to see what punishment is going to teach them.
If they have empathy then punishment teaches them the wrong lesson
If an older child lacks empathy I believe that would likely be an example of psyopathy, and I wouldn't oppose restricting them from society entirely.

Talk is often ignored by the wee little dictators and they can say "why" 24-7.
The "do as I say" tends to kick in for emergencies or when the child has managed to dawdle a full hour and we are late for something.

As one of the other esteemed posters said; it does not happen till around 8yrs before empathy happens.
Pain was developed by nature for us to avoid things bad for us, it will do until they get their little minds developed.
If they had empathy, punishment is not really necessary right?

"Restricting them from society"???? We do this how? Who decides? The world is full of narcissists running free in the world (first main symptom: lack of empathy).
Please give my kids a chance before they get locked away for the greater good... so we stop talking to them before exhausting all alternatives?

I suppose we can all subscribe to the "everyone wins" society as well? Competition, discomfort, joy, exhilaration, drive, stubbornness are all things that in one way or another can push you to greatness.
My kids may be a handful but they do not fear me, they find me fun and they are very much their own person.
They have curiosity, drive and march to their own drum.

They have wicked ways of looking at things and they DO drive me crazy but I somehow feel better for the world with them in it, they will do the right thing... eventually.

People with no empathy are already restricted from society, as I said, they are psychopaths and we recognise them as such.

"If they had empathy, punishment is not really necessary right?" to an extent yes, although empathy is not the only thing that makes a 'good person' a solid rational moral code also goes with it, that's the hard bit about raising a kid and it's why hitting them is such a bad idea.