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biccat wrote:
As an aside, I really wish people who advocate 'natural' farms hadn't misappropriated the word "organic."

While the legal question has been settled, there is significant debate in the organic farming community over what is, and is not, organically farmed produce.

Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative. Even "natural" runs into the same problems that it always does when used to delineate.

Mr Hyena wrote:

His thesis is that in the future people will change over to seeing meat-eating as inappropriate. I don't know if I agree, but he was clearly talking about changing social attitudes.

Would you openly admit to doing a social taboo? How would you have, say, a dinner party with friends and serve it?

Depends on how strong the taboo is. There's a social taboo against smoking in many contexts, but people get together for parties to enjoy cigars.

Mr Hyena wrote:

You're joking, right? The fact that two dishes taste DIFFERENT makes one of them digusting by default?

I, and people like me, clearly like the taste of meat + veg. Veg only doesn't serve anywhere near the same purpose taste wise. It lacks a meat taste. Thats pretty much disgusting isn't it?

No, not by any english meaning of "disgusting". Do you require ice cream to include a meat taste, and find it disgusting if it doesn't?

"Different" =/= "Disgusting". Even if you don't enjoy veggie dishes as much, there's still a huge spectrum of degrees of enjoyment between "I love it" and "disgusting". I love a lot of meat dishes too, and I usually like a nice combination and balance of meat and veg. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a pure veggie dish, or a veggie and pasta dish. Or a veggie and cheese dish. There are certainly veggie options which share many culinary qualities with meat. Some veggies have a nice, substantial and fatty quality, like avacados. People often use mushrooms, beans, some different soy proteins (Tofu can actually be quite nice when treated right), or cheeses to give the fattiness or "substantial" qualities of meat. If you haven't tried them, and/or have never had them cooked well, maybe you're just unaware how good and satisfying they can be, even to people who love meat.

Mr Hyena wrote:So what do you choose your dishes based on?

Tastiness, nutrition, cost, convenience. Same things most conscious eaters do.

But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a pure veggie dish, or a veggie and pasta dish. Or a veggie and cheese dish. There are certainly veggie options which share many culinary qualities with meat. People often use mushrooms, beans, some different soy proteins (Tofu can actually be quite nice when treated right), or cheeses to give the fattiness or "substantial" qualities of meat. If you haven't tried them, and/or have never had them cooked well, maybe you're just unaware how good and satisfying they can be, even to people who love meat.

But it doesn't solve the problem. It just doesn't taste like meat.

Is it a problem if ice cream doesn't taste like meat?

Or a nice risotto?

Or a lovely cheddar cheese?

The idea that all dishes HAVE to taste like meat is silly and risible.

I've never had a vege dish that tasted remotely like meat. Although you'd be hard pressed too tell the difference between Quorn and bog standard Mince Beef in a Chile...IF it's cooked properly.

Is meat something you need, or is it just something you like? It's clear that we don't need to eat meat. We've got the option and ability to eat other stuff and maintain health.

If you like one thing, and you like another, can you potentially replace one with the other? Yes, at least to some extent.

I wouldn't want to give up meat entirely, but I recognize that my diet would be healthier if I ate more veggies and reduced the amount of meat and bread a bit.

The idea that all dishes HAVE to taste like meat is silly and risible.

I never said that. But if I was after a nice meat dish, veg alone isn't going to solve that. Thats my point. A completely vegan/veggie diet isn't suitable for a massive part of the population.

Theres come a point with being concerned about personal health...and going beyond that just is not right. I would rather enjoy my life with good food, rather than extend my life so far that I'll be some really old guy who would be better off dead.

Although you'd be hard pressed too tell the difference between Quorn and bog standard Mince Beef in a Chile...IF it's cooked properly.

Quorn? You mean the processed fungi protein? tried it; never tasted something so fake before.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:I've never had a vege dish that tasted remotely like meat.

The biggest mistake many people make with vegetarian and vegan dishes is trying to make them taste like meat.

Mr Hyena wrote:

The idea that all dishes HAVE to taste like meat is silly and risible.

I never said that. But if I was after a nice meat dish, veg alone isn't going to solve that. Thats my point. A completely vegan/veggie diet isn't suitable for a massive part of the population.

Yes, you did. You said that dishes which don't taste like meat are "disgusting". Maybe you just need to choose your words better.

Vegan is a lot harder, and I'm not interested in doing that, personally. We're talking more about vegetarianism. Or even just about the capacity for people who enjoy meat to ALSO eat, or at least some of the time substitute, vegetarian dishes. Orlanth suggested that we can and will eventually move over to eating no meat, and you basically said that's impossible and disgusting. I don't necessarily agree with Orlanth, but I don't think it's impossible or disgusting, by any means. While I've never seriously tried going to a no-meat diet, my wife makes a killer guacamole/fresh avacado salad that, combined with some nice tortilla chips, makes a lovely and filling meal, and I've often had as a meal without needing meat to accompany it. I've also had and enjoyed veggie burgers and dishes in which portabello mushroom was the substantial center.

dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.

I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).

dogma wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:I've never had a vege dish that tasted remotely like meat.

The biggest mistake many people make with vegetarian and vegan dishes is trying to make them taste like meat.

I know this is probably asking for trouble, but if that's the case then why make 'Vegetarian Sausages' and 'Vegetarian Burgers'?

Just seems a waste of time to me.

biccat wrote:

dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.

I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).

All foods have inorganic parts to them. But, that's okay, because you need inorganic substances in order to survive (water being a big one).

Grakmar wrote:

biccat wrote:

dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.

I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).

All foods have inorganic parts to them. But, that's okay, because you need inorganic substances in order to survive (water being a big one).

First google search for "organic water."

You can similarly find "organic salt" being advertised.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I know this is probably asking for trouble, but if that's the case then why make 'Vegetarian Sausages' and 'Vegetarian Burgers'?

Just seems a waste of time to me.

Because burgers and sausages don't necessarily have to be made of meat, and some of those that aren't are quite good.

Where you run into trouble is with things like tofurkey, or tofu steaks.

I can fully imagine a 'Tofurkey' being truly foul. And Tofu steaks also. The problem I have with it all is if you're going to be a vegetarian then why eat things that masqurade as meat?

I mean, it's like non-alcoholic lager... It's just pointless. If you are not going to drink then just drink Coke or something. Don't drink something that is pretending to be something it clearly isn't. Disappointment awaits....

I've found that the primary market for vegetarian meat substitutes is people that are vegetarian for ethical reasons (They like meat, but not killing animals.) and people that live with people that like meat (I hate meat, but my dad loves, etc.).

Were I to go vegetarian, I wouldn't really bother with the meat substitutes. Nuts, grains and pulses give you plenty of protein and taste great, whereas I've really never had a meat substitute that I've enjoyed.

Also, Filet Mignon is a lady's steak! Get you a rib-eye, son!

Now, as far as why we eat meat goes, I'm pretty sure it's for all of the reasons we probably shouldn't eat as much meat as we do now. Back in the caveman days meat was a pretty handy way to get a lot of fat and protein out of a few ounces of food.

Gotcha MR, duly noted!

I just don't think I could go vegetarian. The smell of frying bacon just......


Oh sod it, I'm having a bacon sarnie dripping in HP sauce!

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Gotcha MR, duly noted!

NY Strip and Porterhouse is also acceptable.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:I just don't think I could go vegetarian. The smell of frying bacon just......

I'm deeply regretting not having any bacon in the house to sexy-up the 15th turkey sandwich I'll be eating this week.

That's precisely why I stopped at the local allnight garage too buy some on the way home tonight after work!

Just a few more pounds of Turkey to go and I'll be free!!

biccat wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

biccat wrote:

dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.

I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).

All foods have inorganic parts to them. But, that's okay, because you need inorganic substances in order to survive (water being a big one).

First google search for "organic water."

You can similarly find "organic salt" being advertised.

So, we've reduced the word "organic" from "compounds containing a C-H bond (plus a few other C compounds not containing a C-H bond)" to mean "anything a marketing executive feels like"?

My sister's gone vegetarian (but still eats milk and eggs) after growing up in a house with lots of meat. She says this vegan italian sausage is tasty, but I haven't tried it yet.



Review:
http://www.megabeth.net/?p=767

Monster Rain wrote:Also, Filet Mignon is a lady's steak! Get you a rib-eye, son!

It's OK if you call it "tenderloin". Filet is the only cut you can eat (and is best at) damn-near raw.

Ribeye is probably the best cut, IMO.

Grakmar wrote:So, we've reduced the word "organic" from "compounds containing a C-H bond (plus a few other C compounds not containing a C-H bond)" to mean "anything a marketing executive feels like"?

Well...yeah. That's the problem with labeling foods "organic." A similar problem arises when people use the term "chemicals" to refer to pesticides and other plant treatments.

I respect vegetarians, but Im a pure meat eater. Vegetable foods taste bland and never fill up your stomach. Meat on the other hand is the right opposite IMHO.

biccat wrote:It's OK if you call it "tenderloin". Filet is the only cut you can eat (and is best at) damn-near raw.

Reasons this cut of meat sucks.

A: No marbling, or at least not very much. This is where most of the juiciness and flavor of the steak comes from.

B: No connective tissue. Another huge source of flavor that is absent from the Filet. Tougher meat, when cooked properly, always tastes better. Extreme cases are cuts such as short ribs and oxtails, that require cooking for long stretches of time, but taste better than any steak at the end.

Yes, Filet is tender. Yes, you don't have to cook it much, but for god's sake man it's just not as delicious as a steak should be!

biccat wrote:Ribeye is probably the best cut, IMO.

Indeed. Marbling and enough connective tissue to add flavor and just a bit of chewiness... I want one right now.

Animals are so tasty! I wouldn't give that up.

Precisely my point Asherian! Just think of all that tasty, tasty meat you would be leaving behind:

Lamb
Steak ( of all kinds)
Ribs
Oxtail
Bacon
Pork Chops
Whole Suckling Pig
Duck
Pheasent
Chicken
Turkey
Grouse
Partridge
Pigeon
Quail
Rabbit
Venison
Mutton

The list goes on and on and on.

And, all are best eaten with 2 or 3 veggies of your choice! It's the best of both worlds!

I had tofu the other day.

I still don't know what it tastes like.

I'm a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals).

There was a "nutritionist" on local telly the other day, crapping on about how x food was full of nasty horrible chemicals, but hippy-grown "organic" produce was full of nothing but nutrients.

Newsflash, Hippy. Chemicals is chemicals. Natural or artifical, the only difference is purity.

Cyanide is a naturally occurring chemical.
So are Arsenic, lead, and LSD.
"Natural" does not automatically mean "good".

We also have landscape suppliers selling "Organic" sand.
If it's organic, it's "Humous" not sand. Sand is a mineral conglomerate.

Who necroed this thread, lol.

I've decided to embrace my inner omnivore for the time being.